State Confronts Watchman Holloway With Previous Affidavit

Another in our series of new transcriptions of contemporary articles on the Leo Frank case.

Atlanta Journal
August 9th, 1913

Solicitor Dorsey Fiercely Attacks Evidence Given by the Witness For Defense Afternoon Session

He Also Implies That Watchman Was Trying to Fix Crime on Conley to Get Reward. Holloway Admits Signing Statement Produced by the Prosecutor—Other Witnesses for Defense Heard

After Solicitor Dorsey riddled E. F. Holloway, day watchman at the National Pencil factory, with volleys of questions regarding former statements made by the witness and which he could not explain or make coincide with his testimony Friday afternoon, court adjourned at 6:45 o’clock until 9 o’clock Saturday.

The solicitor also trapped the watchman and the witness for the defense. The solicitor also made the sensational implication that the bloody stick found by Pinkertons in the factory was planted by Holloway himself. The solicitor further implied that Holloway was working for a reward and had turned up Conley for that purpose.

After Holloway had declared that Daisy Hopkins’ character was good as far as he knew, the solicitor asked him about a paper he had signed previously stating the contrary. He admitted that he signed the paper. The solicitor asked the witness if he hadn’t told the detectives to return to the factory on a certain day and he was sure they would find something. The witness denied this.

Deputy sheriffs Friday afternoon searched Atlanta for George Epps, the little “newsie” who testified at the trial of Leo M. Frank that he rode to the city on the same car with Mary Phagan on the day she met her death in the National Pencil factory. The “newsie” was called Friday morning, but was not in court and deputies were sent out for him then.

When the afternoon session began Attorney Arnold again called her Epps, but he did not answer and Deputy Sheriff Plennie Minor told the court that search for him at his home in Bellwood Friday had been futile, but that his family had promised to send him to court as soon as he came in.

An attachment was then issued for the “newsie” and officers are looking for him where he is accustomed to sell his “wuxtras.” The defense offered testimony by two street railway employes who manned the car upon which Mary Phagan rode into the city from Lindsay street on April 26, during the morning session, to refute the Epps boy’s testimony that he was on the car, and it is expected that the little fellow will receive a severe grilling when he again takes the stand at the trial.

When court reconvened at 2 o’clock, Attorney Arnold called for George Epps. He was not in court and could not be located around the court house. Attorney Arnold addressed the court.

“Your honor, we would like to have him here,” said he.

Deputy Sheriff Plennie Minor explained that an officer had been sent to his home in Bellwood Friday morning and that he couldn’t be found there, but [1 word illegible] members of his family had promised to send him to court as soon as he returned. An attachment was issued for the newsboy, and a deputy [1 word illegible] went out to search for him. [several paragraphs illegible]

“Do you know Leo M. Frank, the defendant?” Attorney Arnold asked.


“Did you see him on Memorial day, April 26?”


“Opposite the main entrance of the state capitol on Washington street.”
“Where was Frank?”
“He was on a street car. I can’t say positively whether or not it was a Washington street trolley, though.”
“Do you recollect who was with him?”

“What time was it when you saw him?”
“It was between 2 and 2:15 o’clock in the afternoon.”

“How do you know?”
“Well, I left home between 1 and 1:30 o’clock with my wife and her mother.” The witness described the [1 word illegible] they took through town, concluding at the state capitol, and he was passing along the Washington street [several words illegible] with them to get a position where they could see the Memorial day parade.

“How did you happen to see Frank?”
“He was driving my car along the street, and the street car passed me, and I looked up and saw Frank in the car.”

“Have you gone through these maneuvers since to time yourself?”

“Yes.” Mr. Hinchey gave the time it had required on three different occasions, each time arriving at the capitol between 2 and 2:11 o’clock.

“How did you happen to remember seeing Frank?”
“When I read the papers next day the matter was impressed on my memory.”
Attorney Hooper cross-examined the witness.

“How many times did you say you saw Frank that day?”
“Only once, in the street car in front of the capitol.”

“Did you say the crowds were congested around, and you were busy guiding your car among the people and the traffic?”
“Yes, sir.”

“You had about all you could say [1 word illegible] over in managing that steering wheel, didn’t you?”
“I claim to be an expert driver.”

“Was there anything special about Frank to attract your attention on that occasion?”


“Nothing except I had had in my mind some work which I expected to talk over with him at the factory, and when I saw him I recalled that.”

“You don’t recall any other persons you saw or recognized there?”
“No, sir.”

“Nobody else attracted your attention?”
“No, sir.”

“How many people do you know on that side of town?”
“I know a good many. I know people all over town.”

“Nobody else in that crowd attracted your attention?”
“No, sir.”

“How many times have you been to the jail to visit Frank?”
“Only once.”

“Did you discuss this matter with him at that time?”
“Not in detail. I expressed my sympathy and——“

“What I mean is, you mentioned to him that you saw him that day?”
“Oh, yes.”

“You were just telling him that you saw him. You didn’t know whether it would be worth anything to him or not?”
“No, sir.”

“That’s why you went to the jail, wasn’t it?”
“No, sir.”

“Was it before or after the coroner’s inquest that you called on Frank?”


“A long time after the inquest.”

“You had heard that there was some question as to where he was at that [1 word illegible], hadn’t you?”
“There was no question in my mind, for I saw him.”

“Who was the first person you told about having seen Frank, before you told him?”
“I don’t know. I told several people.”

“Why did you try out that experiment of movements on that to ascertain the time you arrived at Washington street?”
“I did it after I learned that I was going to be called as a witness.”

“Did you find out you were going to be called as a witness before or after you went to the jail to see Frank?”

“When you found out you were going to be called as a witness, then you went down to talk it over with Frank?”
“No, sir.”

“Well, why did you go to the jail to see him?”


“I had known him for about five years, and I knew I was going to be a witness.”

“How did you come to be a witness in this case?”
“I was asked by my attorney if I wouldn’t be a witness.”

“Mr. Leonard Haas.”

“Is Mr. Leonard Haas one of Frank’s attorneys?”
“I don’t know.”

“Well, now what do you say was your purpose in going to the jail to see Frank?”
“I was interested in Mr. Frank because he was implicated in this case. We’ve never been personal friends. Just business acquaintances.”

“Have you ever been a witness before?”
“Once, several years ago, in Columbus, Ga.”

“Did you talk it over with the party interested or implicated?”
“Yes, but that was not a murder case.”

“Did you discuss with Frank what your testimony was going to be?”
“No, sir, I told him I saw him on the car, and asked him if he saw me. He said he had not.”

The cardboard model of the basement, ground floor and second floor of the National Pencil factory was brought into court when Mr. Hinsey was excused. The model measures six and one-fourth feet long. H. T. Willett, a pattern maker of 100 Highland avenue, who constructed the model, took the stand.

He made the model faithfully after a blue print furnished to him, he said. The scale of blue print was one-eighth inch to a foot, and he made the model three-eights to the foot. He admitted that he had made none of the measurements himself. The direct examination was brief.

Attorney Hooper directed the cross-examination.

Attorney Hooper developed that the witness had not put in two windows on the office floor himself; that he had not pretended to get the heights, merely making what was termed a ground plan model. The witness further admitted that several holes representing doors, trap-doors, etc., were not in proportion.

The witness talked in such a low voice that the court repeatedly asked him to speak louder. While admitting these mistakes, he declared that generally, he had done everything in his power to follow faithfully the dimensions given in the blue print.

Several times Attorney Arnold objected to Mr. Hooper’s questions. Mr. Arnold did not rise to object, and at each objection Mr. Hooper reached over and patted him on the head, telling him playfully to keep quiet.

The witness was excused, and N. V. Darley, general foreman of the National Pencil factory, was recalled to the witness stand, this time as a witness for the defense.

Questioned by Attorney Arnold, Mr. Darley said that he is general manager of the Forsyth street factory of the National Pencil company.

“You’ve seen this model, haven’t you?”

“No, sir.”

“Didn’t you see it in my office once?” asked Mr. Arnold.

“No, I didn’t se[e] it there.”

“You are familiar with the ground plans of the different floors of the factory, aren’t you?”

“Come down from the chair and look at this model and tell me if it is a good representation of the basement and first and second floors of the factory?”


The witness examined it, and answered that it was such.

As Attorney Arnold indicated various objects in the model, Darley described them. Attorney Arnold questioned him particularly about the chute at the rear of the building.

“How big is that chute, Mr. Darley? Is it big enough for a body to go through?”

Darley then pointed out the spot where Mary Phagan’s body was found. Several of the jurors stood up and looked closely when he indicated that Attorney Arnold pointed to the spot designated as a door leading into the part of the first floor that once was used by the Clark Woodenware company.

“Has this door been kept locked, Mr. Darley?”
“We kept it locked after the Clark Woodenware company moved out, about the first of the year, until after the murder. One day I discovered that it was broken open.”


“How long after the murder was it you discovered this door open, Mr. Darley?”
“I don’t remember. I know that I had it nailed up though, when I found it open, and it’s been nailed up ever since.”

In answer to other questions. Darley said that the trap door over the stairway at the rear of the basement, and the trap door over the chute, were neither locked nor nailed down so far as he knew.

“Sitting at Frank’s desk in the inner office, what view does one have of the second floor?”
“Well, he can see as far back as the middle of the first clock. I sat there and I could see just about one-half of its face.”

“Suppose the safe door is open in the outer office. Where would one have to stand to see the interior of Frank’s office?”
“Almost in the door.”

“Could one see standing further away see over the door?”
“I can see over it by standing on my tiptoes.”

“Have you ever seen Monteen Stover?”
“I saw her down here one day.”
“Would you say that she could see over the door?”
“I don’t think she could.”

Attorney Arnold asked the witness to explain the route that one would have to take from Frank’s inner office to the metal room.

Using a ruler, Darley traced on the model the route one would have to take.


“This double door between the metal department and the main part of the factory—was it kept locked or unlocked?”
“Unlocked. There was no way of locking them.”
“Was there any way, if two people went on the inside, to lock the doors from the inside?”

“State whether there is a cot, lounge, sofa or bed, or anything of that character, in the whole factory building.”

“When the detectives came, I went with them into the woodenware company’s part of the basement, and I saw some old boxes covered over with some bags.”

“That was as foul and filthy a thing as a human being ever rested upon was it not?”

Solicitor Dorsey objected. It was a leading question, said he. Attorney Arnold amended his question.

“The conditions there were boggy and dirty,” answered the witness.

“Dirtier than a hog pen, wasn’t it?”
“It was very dirty.”
“What sort of boxes were they?”
“Some old shipping boxes.”

“What kind of sacks?”
“Crocus and corn sacks.”


“And you say it was filthy?”
“Yes, sir, it was very nasty and dirty.”
“Outside of these boxes and bags, there was no lounge, cot, bed or sofa anywhere in that factory building?”
“No, sir.”

“Was there anything of that kind in the metal room?”
“No, sir.”

“Was there any chair in the metal room?”
“I never saw one there.”

“Anything except the machinery and stock?”
“No, sir.”

“In the ladies’ closet or dressing room, was there any bed?”
“No, sir, just a small cloak closet.”

“You saw the place where Conley says he found the body?”
“Yes, sir.”

“Where was it?”
The witness indicated a spot in the areaway leading from the metal room toward the toilets, on the second floor.

“Where is the lathe that they say they found the hair on?”
“Across the room over on the north side of the factory.”


“You never saw any blood under that machine?”
“No, sir.”

“Did you look for any?”
“Yes, sir, I looked it over 50 or 100 times, I guess.”

“Did you see any blood where Conley says the body lay when he first saw it?”
“No, sir.”

“Did you look for blood?”
“Yes, sir, a great many times.”

At the suggestion of Attorney Arnold, the witness indicated a point where Mary Phagan’s machine stood in the metal room.

Mr. Arnold indicated a door at the back of the second floor, and asked if there was not a stairway leading to the third and fourth floors. The witness answered yes.

“Then you can get the into metal room either from the front or from the back by coming down those stairs?”

“Yes, sir.”

“Didn’t you say that those double doors leading into the metal room from the main part of the factory could be bolted from the outside?”
“Yes, but not from the inside.”

“That door leading to the back stairs in the metal room—is it ever unlocked?”
“Yes, sir, it’s never locked during working hours. Sometimes they are left unlocked when the factory is closed, but they are supposed to be locked then.”

“Isn’t this model in the main a fair idea of the basement, ground floor, and second floor, with location of offices, machinery, etc.?”
“It is a very good idea.”

“Where are the cotton sacks located?”
“I don’t know, sir.”

Mr. Arnold requested the witness to resume the stand. He had been standing beside the model.

“What sort of a day was April 26?”
“It was a holiday.”
“That isn’t what I mean. What kind of weather obtained on that day?”


“It was raining early in the morning.”
“Well, was it cloudy or not all day?”
“Yes, sir, very cloudy.”
“Was the ground floor darker that morning than usual?”
“Yes, sir.”

“Do the windows in this partition along side the entrance afford any light around the elevator?”
“Yes, sir, some but not much.”

“Standing on the outside, looking through the window at this glass partition, can you see the elevator?”

“No sir, to do that you would have to come in the front door and go close to the elevator, on account of the darkness.”

“What time did you leave the factory on that Saturday morning?”
“About 9:40.”

“If Conley says he saw you leave after 11 o’clock that morning, is it true or not true?”
“It is not true.”

“If he says you came downstairs a minute or two before Mr. Holloway between 10:30 and 11 o’clock, is that true or not true?”
“It is not true.”
Attorney Hooper objected to the manner of Mr. Arnold’s questioning the witness, declaring that he was endeavoring to have this witness pass upon the credibility of another witness and that the supreme court has ruled that this is incompetent.


“I will frame my questions differently,” said Mr. Arnold. “With whom did you leave the factory?” addressing the witness.

“With Mr. Frank.”

“Which way did you go?”
“I went to a moving picture show on Peachtree street and he went toward Montag’s.”
“Did you see the negro Jim Conley?”
“No, sir.”

“Was that the last time you were at the factory that day?”


“Did you ever pinch or jolly Conley?”
“I kicked him once or twice when I caught him loafing, and he laughed at it. I wouldn’t call it jollying.”

“Did you ever see Frank jollying with him?”

“How long have you been working at the factory?”
“It was two years on April 7.”
“I call your particular attention to a period beginning June, 1912. Did you ever know Daisy Hopkins?”
“I remembered her face when she was shown to me today.”
“Did you ever see this man Dalton?”
“In that period, beginning June 1912, what was your custom as to being at the factory on Saturdays?”
“Usually I left at noon and in the two years that I have worked at the factory I have failed to come back in the afternoon between 5 and 6 o’clock only a few occasions. My purpose was to find out about the financial sheet.”


“Do you remember even failing to find Frank there?”
“Only once when he told me he would be away, and then I called to see if Schiff was there.”

“Was Schiff usually there on Saturday afternoons, helping Frank?”
“With the exception of a very few instances.”
“Were those instances while he was away on his vacation?”

“I don’t know.”

“What were the day watchman’s instructions as to Saturday?”
“He was to stay there until the night watchman came on at 4 o’clock.”

“Did you come in contact with the employes more or less than Frank?”
“Ninety per cent more.”

“Dalton testified that there was a negro night watchman there in September. Who was the night watchman then?”
“Either a Mr. Kendrick or his son—both white.”
“When was this negro Lee hired?”

“Three weeks before the tragedy.”

“Was there ever a negro nightwatchman at the factory prior to that time?”
“Not during my two years connection with the factory.”
“Don’t you know it was bothered at all until after the insurance people had made you clean up the basement?”
“I don’t think it was touched until then.”
“Who usually stayed there on Saturday afternoons beside Holloway?”
“Walter Pride does work that he can’t do when the factory is in operation.”
“Does the stenographer ever stay there on Saturday afternoons?”

“Are Saturday afternoons only devoted to work on the financial sheet?”
“Saturday afternoons are holidays.”
“Who else stayed at the factory on Saturdays?”
“Every other Saturday a man oiled the machines on the fourth floor.”

“Did you see Conley Monday after the tragedy? And how did he look?”


“Yes. He was very excited. I went to look over ever body in the factory to see if there was anyone who looked suspicious, and Jim Conley was the man. I instructed the watchman to look out for him.”

Solicitor Dorsey objected and was sustained. The question and answer were ruled out.

“At that time was it customary for the sweepers to work on Saturday afternoons?”
“No, they had instructions to quit at noon.”

Mr. Arnold instructed the witness to point out on the model the position of the lavatory used by Frank.

Solicitor Dorsey cross-examined the witness.

“Mr. Darley, have you made any contribution to the defense fund of Frank?” questioned the solicitor.

“No, sir.”

“Can you tell the character of Daisy Hopkins?”
“No, sir.”

“Did you ever see her?”
“I saw her down here this morning.”

“You can’t say, then, what her general reputation was around the pencil factory, can you?”
“No, sir, I cannot.”

Solicitor Dorsey pointed to the door leading into that portion of the first floor formerly used by the Clark Woodenware Company.

“You say you found this door open, after the murder, Mr. Darley?”
“Yes, sir. It wasn’t swinging open, though. The stick nailed across it was torn off.”

“Was there anything else to hold it in place?”

“That was after the crowds had gone through the factory on Sunday and Monday following the murder, wasn’t it?”
“It must have been.”

“Who nailed it up at your instruction?”
“I don’t remember.”

“Mr. Darley, don’t you know that the door of these steps,” pointing to the trap door leading from the first floor to the basement, “has been nailed down for months?”
“No, sir.”


“Can you point out a more secure place to hide a body than at the bottom of the chute leading from the first floor to the basement?”
Attorney Arnold objected and was sustained.

Solicitor Dorsey amended the question. Darley replied that the bottom of the chute would have been a more secretive hiding place for a body than where Mary Phagan’s body was found.

“Did you see the chute before the boxes were removed from around it?”
“I never noticed it.”

Solicitor Dorsey continued: “The Sunday after the murder, Mr. Darley, how high were the boxes piled around the door leading into the woodenware room?”
“Nearly to the top.”

“So far as you know, Mr. Darley, Frank could excuse the night watchman and put Conley to watch in his stead, couldn’t he, on Saturday afternoons?”
“I wasn’t there Saturday afternoons, and can’t say as to that?”
Solicitor Dorsey pointed to the room adjoining the metal room where a vat is. “Isn’t it very damp in this room, Mr. Darley? Isn’t there water on the floor and aren’t there planks in there so you can walk around without wetting your feet?”

“Yes, sir.”

The solicitor directed the witness’ attention to the stairway leading from the third door floor to the second floor at the back of the building.

“Isn’t it your instructions to keep a bar across this door on pay days?”

“Mr. Darley, there’s no reason for taking the paint from the paint room into the metal room or any other part of this floor, is there?”
“If it’s done, it’s done carelessly. There’s no business reason for it.”

“Do you undertake to say this model is at all accurate as to lines of vision?”

“So far as I can remember, it is.”


“You can’t say the clock or the desk hasn’t been moved since the murder, can you, Mr. Darley?”
“Not positively.”

“How long is it since the clock has been fixed?”
“I don’t remember it’s being fixed since the murder?”
This concluded the cross-examination.

Mr. Arnold asked the witness if he had tried to see the time clock from Frank’s desk. The witness said yes, he tried it Friday and could see about half the circle of one of the clocks and couldn’t see the other at all.

“Have the clocks been moved?”
“Not that I know of.”

“You would have known it if they had been moved?”

“Under whose orders would the clocks have been moved if they were moved?”
“Under my orders.”
“Mr. Dorsey was questioning you about the localized point of the paint room. Isn’t it true that in no paint shop on earth, can paint be confined to limits like these?”
“Yes, sir, as I said there is no business reason for paint to be outside the polishing room; but it is out and all over the place.”


“About that blood in front of the dressing room door. You didn’t know what that was, did you?”
“No, sir.”

“I believe you said when you were previously examined that you frequently found blood spots on the floor, especially around the ladies’ dressing rooms and toilets?”
“Yes, sir.”

“And you have more than 100 women working in this factory?”

“You don’t know how long that spot had been there?”
“No, sir.”

“And you wouldn’t have noticed it unless your attention had been called to it?”
“No, sir.”

“Mr. Dorsey questioned you about water being in that part of the factory near the toilets, was there any water where it was said that the girl’s body was found?”
“No, sir.”

“And no blood?”
“No, sir.”

“And you looked carefully over this place both Monday and Tuesday?”
“Yes, sir.”

“And found no blood or signs of blood?”
“No, sir.”

“And the floor hasn’t been washed since you’ve been with the factory, so that if the blood of a mouse had been there two years ago, it still would be there?”
Before the witness could answer, Solicitor Dorsey addressed the court.


“Your honor, you should rule out that question. All this stuff about the blood of a mouse two years ago still being there, and washing the floor, and all like that, is wholly irrelevant.”

The court sustained the objection.

“Well,” said Attorney Arnold, “was there any water under the machine where Barrett said he discovered the hair?”
“No, sir.”

“Had the floor been cleaned there since?”
“No, sir.”

“Did you find any blood there?”
“No, sir.”

“Did you ever know Frank to make up a financial sheet except on Saturdays?”
“Only on Saturdays and holidays.”
“Conley knew where the cords were kept, didn’t he?”
“Yes, sir.”

“In fact, he knew the factory throughout as well as anybody in it?”
“Yes, sir.”

“In reply to questions from Mr. Dorsey, you stated that boxes were piled in front of that door on the first floor on April 26.”

“I don’t know. As far as I could see, they shut off the view of the door.”


Solicitor Dorsey resumed the witness.

“It was you yourself who communicated with police headquarters and notified the officers when those blood spots were found, was it not?”
“Yes, sir.”

“Come down,” said the solicitor.

“Wait a minute!” shouted Mr. Arnold.

“You were endeavoring to tell the police everything that you found and everything that was reported to you, were you not?” asked Mr. Arnold.

“Yes, sir.”

“Come down.”

“Hold on,” demanded the solicitor. “When did you report Conley’s nervousness to the police?”
“I think it was to Harry Scott, on Monday, April 28.”

“Are you positive of that?”
“No, sir, I am not.”

“You can’t be positive?”

“No, sir.”

The witness was excused.


“Call in that little boy Epps,” said Mr. Arnold. The bailiffs called, but George didn’t answer.

“Your honor, I want an attachment and a search warrant for this boy,” said Mr. Arnold.

“I have already issued an attachment, and I will assist you in anyway I can to get him here,” said the judge.

The model of the factory was removed from court at this juncture, to make room for the feet of the lawyers.

Albert Kauffman was called back to identify the blue print from which the model was made. He said that the blue print was correct but not as complete as the plat introduced previously.

E. F. Holloway, day watchman and timekeeper at the pencil factory, was called to the stand again. He stands at the clock to see that everybody registers, he said. It was not his habit to indulge Conley by giving him time when he failed to punch the clock. He never asked the negro about failure to punch the clock, but docked his pay. He said that he never saw Frank jollying Conley.

He never saw Frank with the negro except one time when Conley was seeking to borrow a quarter from Frank. He volunteered the information that Frank was careful not to lend the negro more than was due him from the factory.

He said that during the past twelve months it has been a rule that no sweeper should work in the factory after noon on Saturdays. He said that Walter Pride sometimes worked there on Saturdays. He said there had been no negro night watchman until Newt Lee came to the factory three weeks before the tragedy.


At this point proceedings were stopped for a brief recess.

When court resumed, Holloway was asked if he ever jollied with Conley, and said that he never jollied with him but that he kicked him around frequently when he caught him loafing.

“On Monday after the tragedy,” asked Mr. Arnold, “did you notice the door leading back from the passageway on the first floor to the Clark Woodenware company’s place; that also leads to that chute in the rear?”
The witness said that on Monday after the tragedy the door was open, although some time before that he had nailed it up.

“In the period beginning June, 1912, up to the time of the tragedy, where were you on Saturday afternoons?”

“Every Saturday during that time, except on legal holidays, I stayed at the factory until 4 o’clock in the afternoon when I was relieved by Kendricks and later by Newt Lee.”


“Did Frank ever have any women come up to see him on Saturday afternoons?”

“No one except his wife, who often came there to go home with him.”

“Who helped Mr. Frank in the office?”
“Schiff, and sometimes there would be an office boy there.”

“On any other Saturday, this year or last year, did Jim Conley watch at the front door of the factory?”
“Not at any time before 4 o’clock?”
“Would you have been obliged to see him if he had been there?”
“Yes, I generally stayed in front to see that no one came into the factory who should not have been there.”

“Do you recall any Saturday that Schiff failed to go to the factory, except when he was away on his vacation?”

“Did you ever see anyone after office hours take any women into the building?”

“What time did you always come to the factory in the mornings on Saturday?”
“At 6:20 a. m.”

“What time did you leave?”
“About 4 in the afternoon.”

“You’ve had this man Dalton pointed out to you. Did you ever see him before or see him around the factory?”


“Well, would you let a fellow like him come into the factory?”
“No, not unless he had mighty good business there.”

“Did you ever know of any couples going in there?”

“What would you have done if you had?”
“I’d have put ‘em out mighty quick.”

“Do you know Daisy Hopkins?”
“I’ve seen her.”

“Did she ever come back there after office hours?”
“Not while I was there.”

“Did she ever go back there after she stopped working for the factory?”

“On Saturday, April 26, did you go upstairs and put on your coat and come downstairs about the same time Mr. Darley did?”


“I did not, Mr. Darley left about 9 o’clock.”

“Have the street doors ever been locked while anybody worked in the factory?”
“They have not.”

“Were you at the factory last Thanksgiving?”
“I was there until noon.”

“It snowed that day, didn’t it?”
“I don’t know.”

“Well, did you see a girl with white shoes and stockings, with all that snow on the ground, come into the pencil factory that morning?”
“No, sir.”

Attorney Hooper objected to the question on the ground that there had been no evidence introduced that there was snow on the ground last Thanksgiving.

“Don’t worry, Mr. Hooper. I will supply that evidence.”

“On the morning of last Thanksgiving, did Conley come into the factory and watch at the front door?”

“He did not.”

“If he had been watching there, you would have been bound to see him, wouldn’t you?”
“I would.”

“How many times on Saturday did you usually see Frank there?”
“Every time I went by the office.”

“Did you ever see beer in his office?”
“I never saw it a single time.”


“Did he ever keep stenographers there Saturday afternoons?”

“Did the shipping clerk ever stay there?”
“Sometimes, if there was shipping to be done.”

“Did anybody else usually work in the factory on Saturday afternoons?”

Attorney Arnold suggested the names of several employes.

Holloway said that they did.

“Did you ever see anybody else come in?” The attorney named several of Frank’s business associates.

Holloway replied that frequently men made business calls there on Saturday afternoons.

“Did you ever turn your job over to Conley?”
“No, sir.”

“When Mrs. Frank came, would you let her in?”
“I would, and send her up to Mr. Frank’s office.”

“Did Conley ever take your place when you were sick?”
“I never was sick enough to lay off.”

“Do you know a man named Wilson who works in the factory?”



“Doesn’t he work Saturday afternoons, oiling up the motor and fixing the machinery around there?”
“Yes, sir.”

Attorney Arnold asked the witness if several people whom he named did not work in the factory on Saturday afternoons. The witness replied affirmatively.

“Could these men go all over the factory?”
“Yes, sir.”

“Did you ever see the doors of the outer or the inner office of Frank locked?”

“I never did.”

“Is there glass in the doors?”


“There are two windows in Frank’s office, aren’t there?”

“Did you ever see the shades of these pulled down?”
“Never except sometimes in the mornings they would be pulled down a little to keep the sun out.”
“Isn’t it a fact that salesmen often visit the factory on Saturday afternoons?”
“There were nearly always some there.”

“Did you ever know Frank to refuse to see them?”


“How far is it from the front door to the elevator shaft?”
“Ten or twelve feet.”

“It’s dark around there, isn’t it?”
“Yes, we have to keep a gas jet burning.”

“If a girl came down the steps, and if a man was lurking there in the dark, couldn’t he attack her?”

“Very easily.”

“Did members of the Montag family sometimes visit Frank on Saturday afternoons?”
“Nearly always on Saturdays.”

“Did you see a negro drayman named McCrary go upstairs Saturday morning, April 26?”
“I did.”

“What time did he go up?”
“I can’t say.”
“Do you recollect when he came down?”
“I do not.”


“Did you see Conley on the morning of April 26?”
“No, sir. I did not. He was not there.”

“If he had been in that front hall, you would have been obliged to see him, wouldn’t you, Mr. Holloway?”
“I would.”

“Did you observe anything out of the ordinary about Jim Conley on the next week after the murder?”
“I did.”

“What was it?”
“Well, on Monday morning he was around watching the detectives on the first and second floor instead of working on the third floor.”

“What led to his arrest?”
“Well, I caught him washing his shirt, and called them up and told them to come and get him. The day before that he carried out a pair of overalls, and said he was going to Block’s candy factory to take them to another negro there. He came back before he would have had time to get there. And the overalls were washed and dried.”

“Could he write?”
“I don’t know.”


“Did you walk down the car track from Broad and Hunter streets to the pencil factory and up to Frank’s office?”
“I did.”


“How long did it take you to make the distance?”
“About two and three-fourths minutes.”

“Well, anybody that left a street car at Broad and Hunter streets at 12:10 o’clock wouldn’t get to the pencil factory until about 12:12 1-2 or 3-4, would they?”

“No, sir.”

“Did you test the time it took to walk from the corner of Marietta and Forsyth streets to the pencil factory?”
“Yes, sir.”

“How long did it take?”
“Six minutes.”


“You may cross-examine him now, Colonel Dorsey,” said Mr. Arnold. The solicitor went after the witness with a vengeance.

“Have you had any conversation with Kendricks, the former night watchman, since this murder, in which you asked him whether Leo M. Frank had ever called him up after he left the factory?”
Before the witness could answer Mr. Rosser objected, declaring that the question was immaterial.

“We’ll see whether it’s immaterial,” declared Solicitor Dorsey. “Mr. Holloway, didn’t you try to get Kendricks to swear that Frank had called him up after he had left the factory?”
“I did not,” shouted the witness, manifesting some excitement.

“Didn’t you tell Kendricks to go ahead and swear that, for it would make no difference as nobody except he and you ever would know about it?”
“No, I never!” snapped the witness.

“The day before this alleged bloody club was found, didn’t you tell Whitfield to come back next day; that he would be sure to find something?”
“I did not.” The witness answered with emphasis, viciously.

“Do you know Daisy Hopkins’ reputation?”
“It’s all right as far as I know.”


“All right as far as you know.” Didn’t you sign this paper that I hold in my hand, and didn’t you tell me, that she was anything but all right, and that you couldn’t depend on anything she said?”
“No, sir!”

The solicitor exhibited the paper to him.

“Did you sign this paper?”
The witness replied,”Yes, sir.”

“And you read it before you signed it, didn’t you?”
“Yes, sir.”

“Now, do you deny that you told me, as it is written down here over your own signature that you couldn’t depend on anything he said?”
“I don’t deny it, but I think I said that we couldn’t depend on what she said at the factory.”
“Didn’t you say you read this paper before you signed it?”
“I suppose I did. Is that yours or Starnes?”
“So then Starnes had one, too?” interjected Mr. Rosser, of the defense.

“Yes, sir,” said the witness.

“What time did you say that Darley left the factory that Saturday morning?”



“Look-a-here, Mr. Holloway, didn’t you tell me positively—and I asked you to be positive, that Darley and Frank went out together, that Frank was saying something about going to a ball game if the weather permitted—didn’t you tell me that it was about 10:45 when […]

State Confronts Holloway With Previous Affidavit

[…] Darley left, and that Frank was gone about 40 minutes?”
“Well, that was all guess work.”

“You put your name to this statement, didn’t you?”
“Then you did say that?”
“Well, why do you say now that he left there at 9:30?”

“I didn’t recollect the time exactly.”

“Your recollection ought to have been better then than now, oughtn’t it?”
Mr. Arnold objected, declaring that the question about his recollection was not relevant or material.


“I want him to give to this jury a reasonable explanation of why he read over and signed this paper stating one thing, and now comes and swears to another story.”

“Your memory is better now, isn’t it?” inquired the solicitor of the witness.

“Not a bit,” growled the witness.

“What did you say about getting a reward for turning up Conley?”
“I never said anything of the kind!” shouted the witness.

“Well, what did you say about it?”
“A day or two after he was arrested I told Black or some of the detectives that if this negro was convicted he is my negro.”
“And you knew all about this $1,500 reward that newspapers were publishing?”
“I certainly did.”

“When were you accustomed to leave the factory on Saturdays?”
“Generally about 4:30 o’clock.”
“Didn’t you tell me that if there were girls in the factory on Saturday afternoon that you would be in a position to know it because you remained there until about 3 o’clock? Didn’t you say 3 o’clock, Mr. Holloway?”


“If I said 3, I meant 4.”

“If you mean 4, what did you mean just now when you said 4:30?”
The witness said that was a slip of the tongue.

“I asked you, Mr. Holloway, didn’t I, if you were ever away from the factory on Saturdays, holidays or otherwise?”
“I meant 4 o’clock on Saturdays except holidays.”
“And you told me that negroes did work in the factory on Saturday afternoons up to 12 months ago?”

“How long has Conley been there?”
“About two years.”
“Did he work regularly, along up to April 26?”
“Except when he was in the stockade for 30 days?”
“How long ago since he was in the stockade?”
“Last year some time.”

“What was Jim’s number at the factory?”


“Do you mean to tell me that you, the man that kept the time of the employes, have forgotten the number of a man who has been working there for two years?”

“Yes, sir.”

“Oh, it was No. 71, wasn’t it, Mr. Holliday?” asked the solicitor, manifesting much patience.

“I don’t know.”

“You won’t swear that it wasn’t?”
“No, sir.”

Obtaining a number of factory time slips from Attorney Arnold, Mr. Dorsey handed them to the witness, commanding: “Mr. Holloway, take those slips and point out the record of No. 71. You say you kept close tabs on those factory employes. How did you do so if you didn’t know their numbers?”
The witness did not reply. He was unrolling the time slips. The solicitor again directed him to indicate on the time slips the registrations by No. 71. After a moment of hesitation, the witness: “I ain’t got my glasses and I can’t see without them.”

Solicitor Dorsey took the time slips back and laid them on the table.

“You are sure Jim Conley worked steadily for fully sixty days prior to April 26, and that he registered every day?”
“No, sir. No. He registered every morning. Sometimes he registered at dinner time. Sometimes he didn’t. Sometimes he failed to register at night.”

“You admit that Walter Pride worked frequently on Saturdays, don’t you?”
“Yes, sir.”

“He’s a negro, too, isn’t he?”
“Yes, sir.”


“Did you say that on Monday after the murder you noticed that the door leading from the pencil factory entrance into the woodenware company’s place was open?”
“Yes, it was.”

“Why Mr. Holloway wasn’t that area in front of the door piled up with all sorts of boxes?”
“There were four or five cases there.”

“There was such a large pile of boxes you couldn’t see the door, wasn’t it?”

“I could see the door. There was some boxes piled there.”

“Why, these boxes were piled all the way around from the steps toward the elevator and in front of the door, weren’t they?”

“I could see the door, all right.”

“Who nailed that door up?”
“I did, on Monday.”

“Was that before or after Darley nailed it up Mr. Holloway? He said he nailed it up three or four days after the murder.”

“Monday, Mr. Darley told me to get my hammer and nails and nail up the door. We never let that door stand open.”

“Mr. Holloway, on this Monday everything at the factory was in turmoil; officers were going through the factory; business was at a standstill. Now, do you mean to say that with this state of affairs, you nailed up the door?”

“Darley told you to nail it up?”

“Wasn’t this door open because the officers were looking around the factory building?”
“I don’t know.”

“Didn’t they open it?”
“I don’t know. It might have been opened on Sunday. It was not open on Saturday, I know, when I left the factory. It was nailed up then.”

“On Saturday, boxes were piled up all around and in front of it, weren’t there?”
“There were five or six boxes piled there.”

The solicitor continued to grill the witness.

“Don’t fancy ladies sometimes wear shoes with white tops when there’s snow on the ground? Don’t fancy ladies wear most anything?”
Mr. Arnold objected on the ground that the witness was not qualified as an expert. Mr. Dorsey said that Mr. Arnold had questioned him along the same line, and waived the question, after saying that “fancy ladies” were the kind he contended entered the factory on Saturday afternoons.


“Don’t you know that frequently on Monday mornings beer bottles were found around on the floor near the office?”
“What time?”
Mr. Dorsey shouted, “Monday morning, I said!”

The witness hesitated some more, and finally blurted out, “No!”

Mr. Dorsey smiled and passed to another subject.

“Weren’t you and Darley very strict about negroes being in the factory after work hours?”

“Then if you had found a negro around there acting as lookout for Frank, you’d put him out, wouldn’t you?”
The witness admitted that he would.

“Was there a drayman there on Saturday?”

The solicitor put some other questions, which the witness answered, and then the solicitor demanded:

“Just a minute ago, didn’t you say that the drayman was there on Saturday?”


“If I said he was, he was,” shouted the witness.

“Well, what did you say just a minute ago?”
“Well, I won’t answer!” said the witness.

“What are the facts about the case? Was there a drayman there, or was there not?”
“I don’t remember,” finally said the witness, after the judge commanded him to answer.

“Well, why did you tell me there was a negro drayman there when you say you don’t remember now?”
Holloway did not answer. The solicitor passed the point.

“Now, you told Mr. Arnold that Conley acted suspiciously on Monday by not staying at his regular job. Did anybody in the whole factory stay at his regular job that morning?”
“Yes,” said the witness.


“As a matter of fact, didn’t they shut down the factory at a little after 8 o’clock because all the employees were running out buying the extras and looking at the blood spots?”

“After that who stayed?”
“Nobody but me.”

“Tell one thing that Conley did different from the others.”

The witness didn’t answer.

“Well, let’s go to Thursday,” said the solicitor, “the time you had your nigger arrested. You said he hid the shirt. Now tell how he hid the shirt? He was there on the second floor, washing it in some vats when you saw him, wasn’t he?”

“He had taken the shirt off of his own body, hadn’t he?”


“And he had been wearing it all the morning? And that was at 2:30 o’clock, wasn’t it?”

“Well, he had it on when he was arrested, didn’t he?”

“Now, tell me how he was trying to hide it.”

“He had it stretched behind a radiator up there.”

“He’d put it there to dry, hadn’t he?”

“How did he hide it; then?”
“Well, he stood in front of it,” said the witness.

“You’ve seen Conley with tablets, haven’t you? And you knew he could write?”

“When did you tell that he could write?”
“I don’t remember.”

“Was it after or before you visited Mr. Frank in the tower?”
“About two weeks afterward.”

“When you were making those walking tests, you timed yourself by only one watch, didn’t you?”

“And you don’t know whether the clocks of the Georgia Railway and Electric company and the clocks of the National Pencil company were both together on April 26, do you?”
“No,” bellowed the witness.

Solicitor Dorsey turned the witness over to Mr. Arnold for redirect examination.

“Were you subpenaed to go to Solicitor Dorsey’s office?”
“I was.”

“He sent you a regular court subpena, didn’t he?”

“Did you know you didn’t have to go?”
“Not until I talked to some of the others that got them around there.”
“Did you know it was false imprisonment?”
“I did not.”

“How many asked you questions when you made this statement in Solicitor Dorsey’s office?”
“Oh, there was only three or four.”

“Only three or four!” exclaimed Mr. Arnold.

“Three or four,” repeated the witness.

Attorney Arnold read a number of questions and answers that were the transcript of Holloway’s original examination by the state. He asked Holloway after each one if he hadn’t said that, and Holloway said that he had.


“It’s impossible to repeat a thing, several hours afterwards, exactly as you said it before, isn’t it, Mr. Holloway?”
“It is.”

“Do you know anything about the character of Daisy Hopkins?”
“No, sir.”

“Step down,” said Mr. Arnold. And court recessed until 9 o’clock Saturday morning.

* * *

Atlanta Journal, August 9th 1913, “State Confronts Watchman Holloway With Previous Affidavit,” Leo Frank case newspaper article series (Original PDF)