Leo M. Frank, Plaintiff in Error, vs. State of Georgia, Defendant in Error. In Error from Fulton Superior Court at the July Term, 1913

Murder Trial Testimony in Adobe PDF format: http://www.leofrank.info/library/georgia-archives/

In the Supreme Court of Georgia
FALL TERM, 1913

LEO M. FRANK
PLAINTIFF IN ERROR
VS.
STATE OF GEORGIA
DEFENDANT IN ERROR

In Error from Fulton Superior Court
at the July Term, 1913

BRIEF OF THE EVIDENCE

————————————

LEO M. FRANK,
Plaintiff in Error
vs. From Fulton Superior Court.
STATE OF GEORGIA
Defendant in Error

BRIEF OF THE EVIDENCE.

MRS. J. W. COLEMAN, sworn for the State.
I am Mary Phagan’s mother. I last saw her alive on the 26th day of
April, 1913, about a quarter to twelve, at home, at 146 Lindsey Street.
She was getting ready to go to the pencil factory to get her pay envelope.
About 11:30 she ate some cabbage and bread. She left home at a quarter
to twelve. She would have been fourteen years old the first day of June,
was fair complected, heavy set, very pretty, and was extra large for her
age. She had on a lavender dress, trimmed in lace, and a blue hat. She
had dimples in her cheeks.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
The blue hat that is seen here is the hat the little girl had on that
day. It had some pale blue ribbon and some flowers when she left home.
It was a small bunch of little pink flowers right in the center. We live
two blocks from the street car line. There is a store there, at the place
she usually gets on the car, kept by Mrs. Smith. Epps is a neighbor of
ours. He was a friend of Mary’s. He wasn’t no special friend of hers.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

These are the clothes that she wore on the day (State’s Exhibit M.”)

GEORGE EPPS, sworn for the State.

I am fourteen years old. I live right around the corner from Mary
Phagan’s home. I have known her about a year. The last time I saw
her was Saturday morning coming to town on the English Avenue car.
It was about ten minutes to twelve when I first saw her. I left her about
seven minutes after twelve at the corner of Forsyth and Marietta Street.
She had on that hat, parasol and things when I left her. She was going to
the pencil factory to draw her money. She said she was going to see the
parade at Elkin-Watson’s at two o’clock. She never showed up. I
stayed around there until four o’clock and then I went to the ball game.
When I left her at the corner of Forsyth and Marietta, I went under the
bridge to get papers and she went over the bridge to the pencil factory,
about two blocks down Forsyth Street. I sat with Mary on the car.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I know what time it was when I met Mary because I looked at Bry-
ant and Keheley’s clock at the corner of Oliver and Bellwood, where I
caught the car. She caught the car at Oliver and Lindsey and I caught
the car at Oliver and Bell Street. She got on before I did, just one block
before. I didn’t say anything before the Coroner’s jury about seeing a
clock there, but I did see one. I know it was about seven minutes after
twelve when I got off at Marietta Street because I can tell by the sun. I
lived in the country and when I got off I looked at the sun. Mary got off
the street car with me. No, she didn’t ride on to Hunter Street. I am
sure of that. She walked on down to the pencil factory on the right-hand
side of Forsyth Street.

NEWT LEE (colored), sworn for the State.

On the 26th day of April, 1913, I was night watchman at the National
Pencil Factory. I had been night watchman there for about three weeks.
When I began working there, Mr. Frank carried me around and showed
me everything that I would have to do. I would have to get there at six
o’clock on week days, and on Saturday evenings I have to come at five
o’clock. On Friday, the 25th of April, he [Leo Frank] told me “Tomorrow is
a holiday and I want you to come back at four o’clock. I want to get off
a little earlier than I have been getting off.” I got to the factory on Sat-
urday about three or four minutes before four. The front door was not
locked. I pushed it open, went on in and got to the double door there. I
was paid off Friday night at six o’clock. It was put out that everybody
would be paid off then. Every Saturday when I get off he gives me the
keys at twelve o’clock, so that if he happened to be gone when I get back
there at five or six o’clock I could get in, and every Monday morning I
return the keys to him. The front door has always been unlocked on
previous Saturday afternoons. After you go inside and come up about
middle ways of the steps, there are some double doors there. It was
locked on Saturday when I got there. Have never found it that way be-
fore. I took my keys and unlocked it. When I went upstairs I had a
sack of bananas and I stood to the left of that desk like I do every Sat-
urday. I says like I always do, “Alright, Mr. Frank,” and he come bust-
ling out of his office. He had never done that before. He always called
me when he wanted to tell me anything and said “Step here a minute,
Newt.” This time he came up rubbing his hands and says, “Newt, I am
sorry I had you come so soon, you could have been at home sleeping, I
tell you what you do, you go out in town and have a good time.” He
had never let me off before that. I could have laid down there in the
shipping room and gone to sleep, and I told him that. He says, “You
needs to have a good time. You go down town, stay an hour and a half
and come back your usual time at six o’clock. Be sure and be back at six
o’clock.” I then went out the door and stayed until about four minutes
to six. When I came back the doors were unlocked just as I left them
and I went and says,” Allright, Mr. Frank,” and he says, What time is
it’?” and I says, “It lacks two minutes of six.” He says, “Don’t punch
yet, there is a few worked today and I want to change the slip.” It took
him twice as long this time than it did the other times I saw him fix it.
He fumbled putting it in, while I held the lever for him and I think he
made some remark about he was not used to putting it in. When Mr.
Frank put the tape in I punched and I went on down-stairs. While I was
down there Mr. Gantt came from across the street from the beer saloon
and says “Newt, I got a pair of old shoes that I want to get upstairs to
have fixed.” I says, “I aint allowed to let anybody in here after six
o’clock. About that time Mr. Frank come busting out of the door and
run into Gantt unexpected and he jumped back frightened. Gantt says,
“I got a pair of old shoes upstairs, have you any objection to my getting
them?” Frank says, “I don’t think they are up there, I think I saw the
boy sweep some up in the trash the other day.” Mr. Gantt asked him
what sort they were and Mr. Frank said “tans.” Gantt says, “Well, I
had a pair of black ones, too.” Frank says, “Well, I don’t know,” and
he dropped his head down just so. Then he raised his head and says,
“Newt, go with him and stay with him and help him find them,” and I
went up there with Mr. Gantt and found them in the shipping room, two
pair, the tans and the black ones. Mr. Frank phoned me that night about
an hour after he left, it was sometime after seven o’clock. He says”How
is everything?” and I says, “Everything is all right so far as I know,”
and he says, “Good-bye.” No, he did not ask anything about Gantt.
Yes, that is the first time he ever phoned to me on a Saturday night, or
at all.
There is a light on the street floor just after you get in the entrance
to the building. The light is right up here where that partition comes
across. Mr. Frank told me when I first went there, “Keep that light
burning bright, so the officers can see in when they pass by.” It wasn’t
burning that day at all. I lit it at six o’clock myself. On Saturdays I
always lit it, but week-days it would always be lit when I got there. On
Saturdays I always got there at five o’clock. This Saturday he got me
there an hour earlier and let me off later. There is a light in the base-
ment down there at the foot of the ladder. He told me to keep that burn-
ing all the time. It has two little chains to it to turn on and turn off the
gas. When I got there on making my rounds at 7 p. m. on the 26th of
April, it was burning just as low as you could turn it, like a lightning
bug. I left it Saturday morning burning bright. I made my rounds reg-
ularly every half hour Saturday night. I punched on the hour and
punched on the half and I made all my punches. The elevator doors on
the street floor and office floor were closed when I got there on Saturday.
They were fastened down just like we fasten them down every other
night. When three o’clock came I went down the basement and when I

went down and got ready to come back I discovered the body there. I
went down to the toilet and when I got through I looked at the dust bin
back to the door to see how the door was and it being dark I picked up
my lantern and went there and I saw something laying there which I
thought some of the boys had put there to scare me, then I walked a little
piece towards it and I seen what it was and I got out of there. I got up the
ladder and called up police station. It was after three o’clock. I carried
the officers down where I found the body. I tried to get Mr. Frank on the
telephone and was still trying when the officers came. I guess I was try-
ing about eight minutes. I saw Mr. Frank Sunday morning at about
seven or eight o’clock. He was coming in the office. He looked down on
the floor and never spoke to me. He dropped his head right down this
way. Mr. Frank was there and didn’t say nothing while Mr. Darley was
speaking to me. Boots Rogers, Chief Lanford, Darley, Mr. Frank and I
were there when they opened the clock. Mr. Frank opened the clock and
said the punches were all right, that I hadn’t missed any punches. I
punched every half hour from six o’clock until three o’clock, which was
the last punch I made. I don’t know whether they took out that slip or
not. On Tuesday night, April 29th at about ten o’clock I had a conver-
sation at the station house with Mr. Frank. They handcuffed me to a
chair. They went and got Mr. Frank and brought him in and he sat
down next to the door. He dropped his head and looked down. We were
all alone. I said, “Mr. Frank, it’s mighty hard for me to be handcuffed
here for something I don’t know anything about.” He said, “What’s
the difference, they have got me locked up and a man guarding me.” I
said, “Mr. Frank, do you believe I committed that crime,” and he said,
“No, Newt, I know you didn’t, but I believe you know something about
it.” I said, “Mr. Frank, I don’t know a thing about it, no more than
finding the body.” He said, “We are not talking about that now, we
will let that go. If you keep that up we will both go to hell,” then the
officers both came in. When Mr. Frank came out of his office that Satur-
day he was looking down and rubbing his hands. I have never seen him
rubbing his hands that way before.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
I don’t know how many times I told this story before. Everybody
was after me all the time down there at the station house. Yes, I testi-
fied at the coroner’s inquest and I told them there that Mr. Frank jumped
back like he was frightened when he saw Mr. Gantt. I am sure I told
them, and I told them that Mr. Frank jumped back and held his head
down. I didn’t say before the coroner that he said he had given one of
the pair of shoes of Mr. Gantt to one of the boys; they got that wrong.
On Saturdays I had to wake up usually and get to the factory at twelve
o’clock. This time Mr. Frank told me to get back at four. I did say be-
fore the coroner that he was looking down when he came out of his office.
I told them also that there was a place in that building when I could go
to sleep, but they didn’t ask me where.

When you come in the front door of the factory, you can go right on
by the elevator and right down into the basement, anybody could do it.
The fact that the double doors on the steps were locked wouldn’t prevent
anybody from going in the basement. That would only prevent anybody
from up stairs from going into the basement unless they went by the ele-
vator or by unlocking those double doors. All of the doors to the factory
were unlocked when I got back there Saturday afternoon about 6 o’clock,
the first floor, the second floor, the third floor and the fourth floor. Any-
body could come right in from the street and go all over the factory with-
out Mr. Frank in his office knowing anything about it. The doors are
never closed at all. That is a great big, old, rambling place up there.
The shutters, the blinds to the factory were all closed that day because
it was a holiday, excepting two or three on the first floor which I closed
up that night. It’s a very dark place when the shutters are closed. That
is why we have to burn a light. There is a light on the first floor near the
clock, it burns all the time because that is a dark spot. There are two
clocks, one punches to a hundred, the other punches to two hundred, be-
cause there are more than a hundred employees. I punch both of them.
About Mr. Frank and Mr. Gantt, they had had a difficulty and I knew
that Mr. Frank didn’t want him in there. Mr. Frank had told me “Lee,
I have discharged Mr. Gantt, I don’t want him in here, keep him out of
here,” and he had said,” When you see him hanging around here, watch
him.” That is the reason I thought Mr. Frank was startled when he saw
Mr. Gantt. Mr. Gantt is a great big fellow, nearly seven feet. When he
went out I watched him as he went to the beer saloon and I went on up-
stairs. He left the factory about half past six. I went through the ma-
chine room every time I made a punch that night. I went to the ladies’
dressing room every half hour that night until three o’clock. I went all
over the building every half hour, excepting the basement. I went down
to the basement every hour that night, but not all the way back. Mr.
Frank had instructed me to go over the building every half hour and he
said go down in the basement once in awhile. He said go back far enough
to see the door was closed. He told me to look out for the dust bin be-
cause that is where we might have a fire and to see that the back door is
shut and to go over all the building every half hour. No, he didn’t give
me any different instructions on that Saturday, he didn’t tell me not to
go in the basement or in the metal department. He allowed me to carry
out the instructions just like I had been doing before. Yes, if I had gone
back to find out whether that door was closed or not, I would have found
the body, but I could see if the door was open, because there was a light
back there. No, it wasn’t open that night. It was shut when I found the
body. It was about ten minutes after I telephoned the police that they
arrived. When I was down there I was close enough to the door to see it
was shut, there was a light in front of it. There was no light between
the body and the door. It was dark back there. The body was about
sixty feet from that door. If the back door had been open I could have
seen that big light back there in the alley. The back door was closed

when I found the body. The first time I went down the basement that
night was seven o’clock. I went just a little piece beyond the dark, so I
could see whether there was any fire down there. That’s what I was
looking for. Yes, I could tell whether the door was open from there. No,
I didn’t go back as far as they found the body, I didn’t go back that far
at all during the night. The reason I went that far back when I saw the
body was because I went to the closet. There are two closets on the sec-
ond floor, one on the third floor and one on the fourth floor. I didn’t see
the lady’s hat or shoe when I went down to that little place with my lan-
tern, nor the parasol. My lantern was dirty. I was sitting down there,
after I had punched, on the seat, set my lantern on the outside. When I
got through I picked up my lantern, I walked a few steps down that way,
I seed something over there, about that much of the lady’s leg and dress.
I guess I walked about three or four feet, or five or six. I guess the body
was about ten feet from the closet. As to what made me look in that
direction from the closet, because I wanted to look that way. I picked
up the lantern to go down there to see the dust bin, to see whether there
was any fire there. The dust bin was to the right of me. When I was sit-
ting down there the dust bin was not entirely hid behind the partition. I
could see where the dust came down. The balance of the night in order
to see whether there was any fire in the dust bin or not I went twenty or
twenty-five feet from the scuttle hole, and when I was down in the closet
I had to go at least ten feet to see whether or not there was any fire in the
dust bin. I would have gone further if I hadn’t discovered the body.
When I saw the body, the closest I ever got to it was about six feet. I
was holding my lantern in my hand. I just saw the feet. When I first
saw it I was about ten feet from it. As to how far the body was from
where I was sitting in the closet, it was not less than ten feet and not
more than thirty. I stood and looked at it to see whether or not it was a
natural body. When I first got there I didn’t think it was a white woman
because her face was so dirty and her hair was so crinkled and there were
white spots on her face. When the police came back upstairs they said
it was a white girl. I think I reported to the police that it was a white
woman. She was lying on her back with her face turned kinder to one
side. I could see her forehead. I saw a little blood on the side of her
head that was turned next to me. The blood was on the right side of her
head. I am sure she was lying on her back. Mr. Frank had told me if
anything serious happened to call up the police and if anything like fire
to call up fire department. I already knew the number of the station
house. I did say at the coroner’s inquest that it took Mr. Frank longer
to put the tape on this time than it did before. I did not say it took twice
as long at the coroner’s inquest, because they didn’t ask me. I didn’t
pay any attention to him the first time he put the tape on. The reason
the last time I know it took him longer because I held the lever and had
to move it backwards and forwards. When I was in the basement one of
the policemen read the note that they found. They read these words,
“The tall, black, slim negro did this, he will try to lay it on the night”

and when they got to the word “night” I said “They must be trying to
put it off on me.” I didn’t say, “Boss, that’s me.”

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
The first time I saw Mr. Frank put any tape on, he didn’t say any-
thing about it being any trouble. The last time he put it on, he said
something about that he wasn’t used to putting it on. I was holding the
lever there and he got it on twice and he had put it on wrong and lie
would have to slip it out and put it back. When Mr. Frank came out
rubbing his hands, he came out of his inner office into the outer office and
from there in front of the clock. I did not go down in the basement as
far as the boiler during the night, except when I discovered the body.
The officers talked to me the whole time. I didn’t get to sleep hardly,
day or night. Just the time I would get ready to go to sleep, here they
was after me. Then I would go back to my cell, stay a while and then
another would come and get me. They carried me where I could sleep,
but they wouldn’t let me stay there long enough to sleep. I didn’t get
no sleep until I went over to the jail, and I didn’t get no sleep at jail for
about two weeks. That was before the coroner’s inquest, when I was
first arrested. When I went back to the jail I was treated nicely. As to
who talked to me longer Mr. Frank or Black, Mr. Black did. Mr. Arnold
talked to me longer than Mr. Frank did on April 29th. In the southwest
corner is some toilets for men and women.

L. S. DOBBS, sworn for the State.
I am a sergeant of police. On the morning of April 27th, at about
3:25 a call came from the pencil factory that there was a murder up there.
We went down in Boots Rogers’ automobile. When we got there the
door was locked. We knocked on the door and in about two minutes the
negro came down the steps and opened up the door and said there was a
woman murdered in the basement. We went through a scuttle hole, a
small trapdoor. The negro lead the way back in the basement, to a par-
tition on the left, leading from the elevator. The basement is about
twenty feet wide. The negro lead the way back about one hundred fifty
feet and we found the body. The girl was lying on her face, not directly
lying on her stomach, with the left side on the ground, the right side up
just a little. We couldn’t tell by looking at her whether she was white or
black, only by her golden colored hair. They turned her over and her face
was full of dirt and dust. They took a piece of paper and rubbed the dirt
off of her face, and we could tell then that it was a white girl. I pulled up
her clothes and we could tell by the skin of her knee that she was a white
girl. Her face was punctured, full of holes and was swollen and black.
She had a cut on the left side of her head as if she had been struck and
there was a little blood there. The cord was around her neck, sunk into
the flesh. She also had a piece of her underclothing around her neck.
The cord was still tight around her neck. The tongue was protruding

just the least bit. I began to look around and found a couple of notes.
The cord was pulled tight and had cut into the flesh and tied just as tight
as it could be. The underclothing around the neck was not tight. There
wasn’t much blood on her head. It was dry on the outside. I stuck my
finger under the hair and it was a little moist. This scratch pad (State’s
Exhibit “H”) was also lying on the ground, close to the body. The body
was lying with the head towards Forsyth Street, the head being near the
partition. I found the notes under the sawdust, lying near the head.
The body was that of Mary Phagan. The scratch pad was lying near the
notes. They were all right close together.
(Witness indicates on diagram of the State where body was found
and identifies different parts of the building on the diagram. Witness
states that diagram is a (State’s Exhibit A) fair representation of the
parts identified by him, i. e., main floor and stairs, basement, boiler, par-
tition in basement, spot where notes and body were found, and of the
entire building.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
We arrived at the factory about 3:30. Lee told us it was a white
woman. It took us some time to determine whether it was a white wo-
man or not. We didn’t know until the dust was removed from her face
and we pulled up the clothes and looked at the skin. We did not know
it prior to that time. We had a lantern with us. One of the officers had
a flashlight. Both of the notes were near her head. I don’t think they
were over six or eight inches apart. No, the one written on the scratch
pad was not attached to the pad when I found it. It was laying about ten
or twelve inches from it, right close together, and about eight or ten
inches from her head was the furthest note. I found the white one first,
on the white pad. I discovered the notes on the white paper and the
scratch pad about the same time. It was possibly five or ten minutes
before I found the other. There was a pile of trash near the boiler where
this hat was found and paper and pencils were down there, too. The hat
was on the trash pile, so was the shoe. They were right close together
on the trash pile. Everything was gone off of it, ribbons and all. It
looked like she had been dragged by her feet on her face. I thought I
found indications that she had been dragged in the basement, but I
couldn’t be positive. As to whether Newt Lee could have seen the body
from where he was standing I would think that he could have seen the
body from where he was standing; I would think that he could have seen
the feet and the bulk of the body, he couldn’t hardly have seen the head.
I don’t think he could have seen enough of it to have seen what it was
without coming up to it. I made an experiment in the day time to see
whether he could see the body or not, and I found he could see the feet,
you could see the bulk. Unless he was looking directly for someone, I
don’t think he could see it. The place where I thought I saw someone
dragged was right in front of the elevator, directly back. It began im-
mediately in front of the elevator, right at the bottom of the shaft. The

hat was possibly nearer the elevator than the shoe. That was a dirt floor
and cinders on it scattered over the dirt. I thought the places on her face
had been made from dragging. I think I saw a little blood on the under-
clothing. I did not testify before the coroner that the blood ran a little
when we moved the body. I didn’t say it was liquid. The blood was dry.
The little trail where I thought showed the body was dragged went
straight on down where the girl was found. It was a continuous trail.
The finger joints on her hand worked a little. Back door was shut, staple
had been pulled. The lock was locked still, but the staple had been drawn
out. It was a sliding door with a bar across the door, but the bar had
been taken down. It looked like the staple had been recently drawn. I
was reading one of the notes to Lee, with the following words: “A tall
black negro did this, he will try to lay it on the night” and when I got to
the word “night,” Lee says, “That means the night watchman.” I had
just said the “night” I and he said” That means the night watchman.” I
think the underclothes were torn, not cut, but I am not positive.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
It was about one hundred fifty feet from the ladder to where we
found the body. The ribbon I found was not on the hat, it was on the
hair. We made another experiment at night to see whether Newt Lee
could have seen the body from where he stood. We placed a bulk about
the size of an ordinary body about the same position that this body was
found in and you could see the bulk of the body by looking carefully by
standing at the spot Newt Lee said he had seen it. A man couldn’t get
down that ladder with another person. It is a difficult matter for one
person to get through the scuttle hole. The signs of dragging that I saw
was right at the bottom of the elevator shaft, on the south side of the ele-
vator. The signs of dragging came right around the elevator straight
back east of the ladder, it started east of the ladder. A man going down
the ladder to the rear of the basement would not go in front of elevator
where dragging was. The hasp appeared to have been pulled straight
out of the door, on the inside, it was not bent. The body was cold and
stiff. Hands folded across the breast. I didn’t find any blood on the
ground or on the sawdust around where we found the body. Yes, the
hasp is bent the least bit. When we got there Sunday morning, I think
the elevator was on the second floor. We tried to make Lee run the ele-
vator, but he said he couldn’t do it.
FURTHER RE-DIRECT.
I found the handkerchief about ten feet towards the rear beyond the
body on a sawdust pile.

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.
I found it possibly ten or fifteen minutes after we found the body.
The handkerchief was bloody just like it is now.

RECALLED FOR THE STATE.

The trap door leading up from the basement was closed when we got
there. There were cobwebs and dust back there.

J. N. STARNES, sworn for the State.

I am a city officer. Went to the pencil company’s place of business
between five and six o’clock, April 27th. The pencil company is located
in Fulton County, Georgia. That is where the body was found. The
staple to the back door looked as if it had been prized out with a pipe
pressed against the wood. There was a pipe there that fitted the inden-
tation on the wood. I called Mr. Frank on the telephone, and told him I
wanted him to come to the pencil factory right away. He said he hadn’t
had any breakfast. He asked where the night watchman was. I told
him it was very necessary for him to come and if he would come I would
send an automobile for him, and I asked Boots Rogers to go for him. I
didn’t tell him what had happened, and he didn’t ask me. Mr. Frank
appeared to be nervous; this was indicated by his manner of speaking to
Mr. Darley; he was in a trembling condition. I was guarded with him in
my conversation over the phone. About a week afterwards I went to the
factory and had the night watchman there, Mr. Hendricks, to show me
about the clock. He took a new slip and put it in the clock and punched
the slip all the way around in less than five minutes (State’s Exhibit P).
I got some cord on the second floor of the pencil factory, the knots in
these cords are similar to the knots in this cord (State’s Exhibit C). On
the floor right at the opposite corner, what might be called the northwest
corner of the dressing room, on Monday morning, April 28th, I saw
splotches that looked like blood about a foot and a half or two feet from
the end of the dressing room, some of which I chipped up. It looked like
splotches of blood and something had been thrown there and in throw-
ing it had spread out and splattered. There was no great amount of it.
I should judge that the area around these spots was a foot and a half.
The splotch looked as if something had been swept over it, some white
substance. There is a lot of that white stuff in the metal department.
It looked like blood. I found a nail fifty feet this side of the metal room
toward the elevator on the second floor that looked like it had blood on
the top of it. It was between the office and the double doors. I chipped
two places off on the back door which looked like they had bloody finger
prints. I don’t know when Frank was arrested. I don’t think he was
arrested on Monday. He was asked to come to the station house on Mon-
day. It takes not over three minutes to walk from Marietta Street at the
corner of Forsyth across the viaduct and through Forsyth Street down
to the pencil factory. Lee was composed at the factory; he never tried
to get away. The door to the stairs from the office floor to the third floor
was barred when I first went up there.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I am guessing about the time. It wouldn’t take over five minutes to
get off the car, walk to the pencil factory, walk in, walk up the stairs and
back into Mr. Frank’s office. The hasp is bent a little. I heard Boots
Rogers testify at the coroner’s inquest and I testified twice. I did not
correct any statement at the coroner’s inquest that Boots Rogers made.
I am the prosecutor in this case. I cannot give the words of the conver-
sation of the telephone message between myself and Mr. Frank. I could
be mistaken as to the very words he used. It was just a casual telephone
conversation. I don’t know that the splotches that I saw there were
blood. The floor at the ladies’ dressing room is a very dark color. I saw
cord like that in the basement, but it was cut up in pieces. I saw a good
many cords like that all over the factory. I never found the purse, or the
flowers or the ribbon on the little girl’s hat. This diagram (State’s Ex-
hibit A) is a correct diagram of second floor and basement of pencil com-
pany and other places. No. 11 on diagram (State’s Exhibit A) is the
toilets.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I was guarded in what I said over the phone to Mr. Frank though it
was just a conversation between two gentlemen. These pieces of wood
look like what I chipped off the floor. I turned them over to Chief Lan-
ford. (Referring to State’s Exhibit E).

RECALLED FOR THE STATE.
I saw Mr. Rosser at the coroner’s inquest. I never heard him say
anything throughout the hearing.

W. W. ROGERS, sworn for the State.
I am now connected with Judge Girardeau’s court. I was at the sta-
tion house Saturday night, April 26th, and went to the National Pencil
Company’s place of business. It was between five and five thirty that I
heard Mr. Starnes have a conversation over the phone. I heard him say,
“If you will come I will send an automobile after you.” It took us five
or six minutes to get out to Mr. Frank’s residence at 86 E. Georgia Ave-
nue. Mr. Black was with me. Mrs. Frank opened the door. She wore a
heavy bath robe. Mr. Black asked if Mr. Frank was in. Mr. Frank
stepped into the hall through the curtain. He was dressed for the street
with the exception of his collar, tie, coat and hat. He had on no vest.
Mr. Frank asked Mr. Black if anything had happened at the factory.
Mr. Black didn’t answer. He asked me had anything happened at the
factory. I didn’t answer. Mr. Frank said, “Did the night watchman
call up and report anything to you?” Mr. Black said, “Mr. Frank, you
had better get your clothes on and let us go to the factory and see what
has happened.” Mr. Frank said that he thought he dreamt in the morn-

ing about 3 a. m. about hearing the telephone ring. Mr. Black said some-
thing about whiskey to Mrs. Frank in Mr. Frank’s presence. Mrs. Frank
said Mr. Frank hadn’t had any breakfast and would we allow him to get
breakfast. I told Mr. Black that I was hungry myself. Mr. Frank said
let me have a cup of coffee. Mr. Black in a kind of sideways, said, “I
think a drink of whiskey would do him good,” and Mrs. Frank made the
remark that she didn’t think there was any whiskey in the house. Mr.
Frank seemed to be extremely nervous. His questions were jumpy. I
never heard him speak in my life until that morning. His voice was a
refined voice, it was not coarse. He was rubbing his hands when he came
through the curtains. He moved about briskly. He seemed to be ex-
cited. He asked questions in rapid succession, but gave plenty of time
between questions to have received an answer. Mr. Frank and Mr. Black
got on the rear seat and I took the front seat and as I was fixing to turn
around, one of us asked Mr. Frank if he knew a little girl by the name of
Mary Phagan. Mr. Frank says: “Does she work at the factory ?” and I
said, “I think she does.” Mr. Frank said, “I cannot tell whether or not
she works there until I look on my pay roll book, I know very few of the
girls that work there. I pay them off, but I very seldom go back in the
factory and I know very few of them, but I can look on my pay roll book
and tell you if a girl by the name of Mary Phagan work there.” One of
us suggested that we take Mr. Frank by the undertaking establishment
and let him see if he knew this young lady. Mr. Frank readily consented,
so we stopped at the telephone exchange, Mr. Frank, Mr. Black and my-
self got out and went in the undertaking establishment. I saw the corpse.
The corpse was lying in a little kind of side out room to the right of a
large room. The light was not lit in this little room where the body was
laying, and Mr. Gheesling stepped in ahead of me and went around be-
hind the corpse and lit the light above her head and her head was lying
then towards the wall. I stepped up on the opposite side of the corpse
with a door to my left. Mr. Gheesling caught the face of the dead girl
and turned it over towards me. I looked then to see if anybody followed
me and I saw Mr. Frank step from outside of the door into what I thought
was a closet, but I have afterwards found it was where Mr. Gheesling
slept, or where somebody slept. There was a little single bed in there. I
immediately turned around and came back out, in front of the office. I
didn’t see Frank look at the corpse. I don’t remember that Mr. Frank
ever followed me in this room. He may have stopped on the outside of
the door, but my back was toward him and I don’t know where he
stopped. Mr. Gheesling turned the head of the dead girl over towards me
and I looked around to see who was behind me and I saw Mr. Frank as he
made that movement behind me. He didn’t go into the closet as far as I
could see, but he got out of my view. He could have looked at the corpse
from the time that Mr. Gheesling was going around behind, but he could
not have seen her face because it was lying over towards the wall. The
face was away from me and I presume that was the cause of Mr. Ghees-
ling turning it over. There was some question asked Mr. Frank if he

knew the girl, and I think he replied that he didn’t know whether he did
or not but that he could tell whether she worked at the factory by look-
ing at his pay roll book. As we were leaving Mr. Frank’s house, Mr.
Frank asked Mrs. Frank to telephone Mr. Darley to come to the factory.
Mr. Frank was apparently still nervous at the undertaking establish-
ment, he stepped lively. It was just his general manner that indicated
to me that he was nervous. I never saw Mr. Frank in my life until that
morning. After we got out of Mr. Frank’s house and was in my car, was
the first time Mr. Frank had been told that the young lady was named
Mary Phagan and that there had been any murder committed at the fac-
tory. From the undertaker’s we went to the pencil factory in my car.
We went into Mr. Frank’s office, he went up to the safe, turned the com-
bination, opened the safe, took out his time book, laid the book down on
the table, ran his finger down until he came to the name Mary Phagan,
and said, “Yes, Mary Phagan worked here, she was here yesterday to
get her pay.” He said, “I will tell you about the exact time she left
there. My stenographer left about twelve o’clock, and a few minutes
after she left the office boy left and Mary came in and got her money and
left.” He said she got $1.20 and he asked whether anybody had found
the envelope that the money was in. Frank still seemed to be nervous
like the first time I seen him. It was just his quick manner of stepping
around and his manner of speech like he had done at the house that indi-
cated to me that he was nervous. He then wanted to see where the girl
was found. Mr. Frank went around by the elevator, where there was a
switch box on the wall and Mr. Frank put the switch in. The box was
not locked. Somebody asked him if he was used to keeping the switch
box locked. He said they had kept it locked up to a certain time until
the insurance company told him that he would have to leave it unlocked,
that it was a violation of the law to keep an electric switch box locked.
We then stepped on the elevator. He still stepped about lively and spoke
up lively, answering questions, just like he had always done. After we
got on the elevator, he .jerked at the rope and it hung and he called Mr.
Darley to start it and we all stepped out of the elevator. Mr. Darley
came and pulled at the rope two or three times and the elevator started.
As to whether anybody made any statement down in the basement as to
who was responsible for the murder, I think Mr. Frank made the remark
that Mr. Darley had worked Newt Lee for sometime out at the Oakland
plant and that if Lee knew anything about the murder that Darley would
stand a better chance of getting it out of him than anybody else. After
we came back from the basement it was suggested that we go to the sta-
tion house and as we started out Mr. Frank says, “I had better put in a
new slip, hadn’t I, Darley?” Darley told him yes to put in a slip. Frank
took his keys out, unlocked the door of the right-hand clock and lifted
out the slip, looked at it and made the remark that the slip was punched
correctly. Mr. Darley and Newt Lee was standing there at the time Mr.
Frank said the punches had been made correctly. Mr. Frank then put
in a new slip, closed’the door, locked it and took his pencil and wrote on

the slip that he had already taken out of the machine, “April 26, 1913.”
I looked at the slip that Mr. Frank took out (Defendant’s Exhibit I), the
first punch was 6:01, the second one was 6:32 or 6:33. He took the slip
back in his office. I glanced all the way down and there was a punch for
every number. While we were walking through the factory Mr. Frank
asked two or three times to get a cup of coffee. As to what Mr. Frank
said about the murder, I don’t know that I heard him express himself
except down in the basement. The officers showed him where the body
was found and he made the remark that it was too bad or something to
that effect. When we left the factory to go to police headquarters, Newt
Lee was under arrest. I never considered Mr. Frank as being under ar-
rest at that time. There had never been said anything to him in my pres-
ence about putting him under arrest. Mr. Frank’s appearance at the sta-
tion house was exactly like it was when I first saw him. He stepped
quickly, when the door of the automobile was open, he jumped lightly
off Mr. Darley’s lap, went up the steps pretty rapid.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I never saw Mr. Frank until that morning. I don’t know whether
his natural movements or manner of speech were quick or not. We didn’t
know whether the girl was a white girl or not until we rubbed the dirt
from the child’s face and pulled down her stocking a little piece. The
tongue was not sticking out, it was wedged between the teeth. She had
dirt in her eye and mouth. The cord around her neck was drawn so tight
it was sunk in her flesh and the piece of underskirt was loose over her
hair. I don’t know whether Mr. Frank went upstairs or not after we
reached his house. I think he called to his wife to get him his collar and
tie. He got his coat and vest some place, but I don’t know where. At the
time Mrs. Frank was calling Mr. Darley, Mr. Frank was putting on his
collar and tie down in the reception hall. We were at the house 15 or 20
minutes. After Mrs. Frank had said something about Mr. Frank getting
his breakfast before he went, Mr. Black said something about a drink
would do good. Mrs. Frank then called her mother, who said that there
wasn’t any liquor in the house, that Mr. Selig had an acute attack of in-
digestion the night before and used it all up. Mr. Frank readily con-
sented to go to the undertaker’s with us. When we got in the car we told
him it was Mary Phagan and he said he could tell whether she was an
employee or not by looking at his book, that he knew very few of the
girls. Yes, anybody facing the door of the little chapel at the undertak-
er’s could have seen the corpse. As to whether I know that Mr. Frank
didn’t see the corpse he could have got a glance at the whole corpse, but
when Mr. Gheesling turned the face over no one could have got a good
look at the face unless they stepped in the room. Mr. Gheesling turned
the young lady’s face directly toward me, Mr. Frank was standing some-
where behind me, outside of the room. I turned around to see if Mr.
Frank was looking. I don’t know that he didn’t get a glance at the

corpse, but no one but Mr. Gheesling and I at this moment stepped up
and looked at the little girl’s face. What Mr. Frank and Mr. Black saw
behind my back, I can’t say. I don’t say that Mr. Frank stepped into
that dressing room, but he passed out of my view. So did Mr. Black.
Mr. Gheesling had a better view of Mr. Black and Mr. Frank than I did,
because my back was to them and Mr. Gheesling was looking straight
across the body at them. Mr. Frank had no difficulty in unlocking the
safe when we went back to the factory. The elevator we went down on
is a freight elevator, makes considerable noise. I stops itself when it
gets to the bottom. I don’t think it hits the ground. She was lying on
her face with her hands folded up. Her face was turned somewhat to-
ward the left wall. A bruise on the left side of her head, some dry blood
in her hair. One of her eyes were blackened. There were several little
scratches on her face. Somebody worked her arms to see if they were
stiff. The arms worked a little bit. The joints in her arms worked just
a little bit. When we first went down the basement we stayed down there
about 20 or 25 minutes. During that time neither the shoe, the hat, nor
the umbrella had been found. In the elevator shaft there was some ex-
crement. When we went down on the elevator, the elevator mashed it.
You could smell it all around. It looked like the ordinary healthy man’s
excrement. It looked like somebody had dumped naturally; that was
before the elevator came down. When the elevator came down after-
wards it smashed it and then we smelled it. As to the hair of the girl
anyone could tell at first glance that it was that of a white girl.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
The body wasn’t lying at the undertakers where it could have been
seen from the door.
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.
At the moment the face was turned towards me, I didn’t see Mr.
Frank but I know a person couldn’t have looked into the face unless he
was somewhere close to me. I was inside and Mr. Frank never came into
that little room.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
When the face was turned towards me, Mr. Frank stepped out of my
vision in the direction of Mr. Gheesling’s sleeping room.

MISS GRACE HICKS, sworn for the State.

I knew Mary Phagan nearly a year at the pencil factory. She worked
on the second floor. I identified her body at the undertaker’s Sunday
morning, April 27th. I knew her by her hair. She was fair skinned,had
light hair, blue eyes and was heavy built, well developed for her age. I
worked in the metal room, the same room she worked in. Mary’s ma-
chine was right next to the dressing room, the first machine there. They
had a separate closet for men and a separate one for ladies on that floor.

There was just a partition between them. In going to the office from the
closets they would pass the dressing room and Mary’s machine within
two or three feet. Mr. Frank, during the past twelve months, would pass
through the metal department looking around every day. Sometimes I
would see him talking to some of the men in the office at the clocks. He
came back to the metal room to see how the work was getting on. The
metal is kept in a little closet back under the stair steps. I asked Mr.
Quinn, not Mr. Frank, if the metal had come. Saturday at twelve o’clock
is the regular pay-day, but the week of April 26th most of the employes
got paid off on Friday night between six and seven o’clock. I hadn’t
worked there since Wednesday. Mr. Quinn called me up and told me
that pay-day would be Friday. The metal had not come from Monday
to Saturday. Mary didn’t work after Monday of that week.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Standing at the time clock you can’t see into Mr. Frank’s private
office. A person wouldn’t see from Mr. Frank’s office any one coming in
or out of the building. I worked at the factory five years. In that time
Mr. Frank spoke to me three times. Mary Phagan worked at the factory
with me for about a year in the same department and I never saw Mr.
Frank speak to Mary Phagan or Mary Phagan speak to Mr. Frank.
When Mr. Frank came through the metal department he never spoke to
any of the girls; just went through and looked around. The three times
Mr. Frank spoke to me were as follows: He was showing a man around
and I was laying on my arm mighty near asleep and he says “You can
run this machine asleep can’t you,” and I said,” Yes, sir.” Then another
time I asked him for a quarter and he loaned me a quarter. The next time
I met him on the street he tipped his hat to me. Mr. Frank knew my face
or he wouldn’t have spoken to me on the street. The floor in the metal
department is awful dirty. The white stuff that they use back there gets
all over the floors. Mr. Darley is general manager and foreman who em-
ployes the help. Mary Phagan’s hair was darker than mine. She weighed
about 115 pounds. Sometimes we sit over at the machine and comb our
hair and sometimes when I want to curl my hair with a poker or anything,
I go over there to the table right by the window and light the gas and curl
my hair. Magnolia Kennedy’s hair is nearly the color of Mary Phagan’s.
The pay is given employes from a window in the packing department.
There is paint in the polishing room, just across from the dressing room.
The door of the polishing room is a few feet across from the dressing
room. No paint is kept in the metal room. I have seen drops of paint on
the floor. I have seen it leading from the door straight across from the
dressing room out to the cooler where the women come out to get water.
The floor all over the factory is dirty and greasy. And after two or three
days you can’t hardly tell what is on the floor after it gets mixed with the
dirt and dust. I saw Helen Ferguson Friday, April 25th, when we were
paid off.

JOHN R. BLACK, sworn for the State.

I am a city policeman. I don’t know the details of the conversation
between Mr. Starnes and Mr. Frank over the ‘phone. I didn’t pay very
much attention to it. I went over to Mr. Frank’s house with Boots Rog-
ers. Mrs. Frank came to the door. Mrs. Frank had on a bath robe. I
stated that I would like to see Mr. Frank and about that time Mr. Frank
stepped out from behind a curtain. His voice was hoarse and trembling
and nervous and excited. He looked to me like he was pale. I had met
Mr. Frank on two different occasions before. On this occasion he seemed
to be nervous in handling his collar. He could not get his tie tied, and
talked very rapid in asking questions in regard to what had happened.
He wanted to know if he would have time to get something to eat, to get
some breakfast. He wanted to know if something had happened at the
pencil factory and if the night watchman had reported it, and he asked
this last question before I had time to answer the first. He kept insisting
for a cup of coffee. When we got into the automobile as Mr. Rogers was
turning around Mr. Frank wanted to know what had happened at the
factory, and I asked him if he knew Mary Phagan and told him that she
had been found dead in the basement of the pencil factory. Mr. Frank
said he didn’t know any girl by the name of Mary Phagan, that he knew
very few of the employes. I suggested to Mr. Rogers that we drive by the
undertaker’s. In the undertaking establishment Mr. Frank looked at
her. He gave a casual glance at her and stepped aside. I couldn’t say
whether he saw the face of the girl or not. There was a curtain hanging
near the room and Mr. Frank stepped behind the curtain. He could get
no view from behind the curtain. He walked behind the curtain and came
right out. Mr. Frank stated as we left the undertaking establishment
that he didn’t know the girl but he believed he had paid her off on Satur-
day. He thought he recognized her being at the factory on Saturday by
the dress that she wore but he could tell by going over to the factory and
looking at his cash book. At the pencil factory Mr. Frank took the slip
out, looked over it and said it had been punched correctly. On Monday
and Tuesday following Mr. Frank stated that the clock had been mis-
punched three times. This slip was turned over to Chief Lanford on
Monday. I saw Mr. Frank take it out of the clock and went back with it
toward his office. I don’t know of my own personal knowledge that it
was turned over to Chief Lanford Monday. When Mr. Frank was down
at police station on Monday morning Ar. Rosser and Mr. Haas were there.
About 8 or 8:30 o’clock Monday morning Mr. Rosser came in police head-
quarters. That’s the first time he had counsel with him. That morning
Mr. Haslett and myself went to Mr. Frank’s house and asked him to come
down to police headquarters. About 11:30 Monday Mr. Haas demanded
of Chief Lanford that officers accompany Mr. Frank out to his residence
and search his residence. Mr. Haas stated in Frank’s presence that he
was Mr. Frank’s attorney and demanded to show that there was nothing
left undone, that we go out to Mr. Frank’s house and search for anything

that we might find in connection with the case. On Tuesday night Mr.
Scott and myself suggested to Mr. Frank to talk to Newt Lee. Mr. Frank
spoke well of the negro, said he had always found him trusty and honest.
They went in a room and stayed from about 5 to 10 minutes alone. I
couldn’t hear enough to swear that I understood what was said. Mr.
Frank stated that Newt still stuck to the story that he knew nothing
about it. Mr. Frank stated that Mr. Gantt was there on Saturday even-
ing and that he told Newt Lee to let him go and get the shoes but to watch
him, as he knew the surroundings of the office. After this conversation
Gantt was arrested. Frank made no objections to talking to Newt Lee.
Mr. Frank was nervous on Monday. After his release Monday he seemed
very jovial. On Tuesday night Frank said at station house that there
was nobody at factory at 6 o’clock, but Newt Lee and that Newt ought to
know more about it, as it was his duty to look over factory every thirty
minutes. Also that Gantt was there Saturday evening and he left him
there at 6 o’clock and that he and Gantt had some trouble previous to
discharge of Gantt and that he at first refused to allow Gantt to go in
factory, but Gantt told him he left a pair of shoes there.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

When I said that Mr. Frank was released I spoke before I thought.
I retracted it on cross-examination. I don’t know that Mr. Rosser was at
the police station between 8 and 8:30 Monday morning, I said that to the
best of my recollection. I wouldn’t swear Mr. Rosser was there. I heard
Mr. Rosser say to Mr. Frank to give them a statement without a confer-
ence at all between Mr. Frank and Mr. Rosser. I said that we wanted to
have a private talk with Mr. Frank without Mr. Rosser being present. I
wanted to talk to Mr. Frank without Mr. Rosser being present. While I
was at the coroner’s inquest Mr. Frank answered every question readily.
I wouldn’t swear positively, but to the best of my recollection I had a
conversation with Mr. Frank on two previous occasions. When I met
Mr. Frank on previous occasions I don’t remember anything that caused
me to believe he was nervous, nothing unusual about him. I heard the
conversation Mr. Starnes had over the telephone with Mr. Frank early
that morning. It was about a quarter to six, or a quarter past six. I
think we got to the undertaker’s about 6:20. As to the reason why I
didn’t tell Mr. Frank about the murder when I was inside the house, but
did tell him as soon as he got in the automobile, I had a conversation with
Newt Lee and I wanted to watch Mr. Frank and see how he felt about the
murder. Mr. Frank didn’t go upstairs and put his collar and cravat on.
Mrs. Frank brought him his collar and tie, I don’t know where she got
them. He told her to bring his collar and tie and he got his coat and hat.
I don’t know whether he went back to his home or not. He put his collar
and tie on right there. I don’t know where he got his coat and vest at. I
don’t know what sort of tie or collar he had. He put his collar and tie on
like anybody else would; tied it himself. I don’t know whether Mr.

Frank finished dressing upstairs or not. I couldn’t see him when he went
behind those curtains. We stayed at the Frank home about ten minutes.
At the undertaking establishment I was right behind Mr. Frank. He was
between me and the body. I saw the face when the undertaker turned
her over. Yes, Mr. Frank being in front of me had an opportunity to see
it also. No, Mr. Frank didn’t go into that sleeping room. Mr. Frank
went out just ahead of me. When we went back to the pencil factory Mr.
Frank went to the safe and unlocked it readily at the first effort. He got
the book, put it on the table, opened it at the right place, ran his finger
down until he came to the name of Mary Phagan and says, “Yes, this lit-
tle girl worked here and I paid her $1.20 yesterday.” We went all over
the factory that day. Nobody saw that blood spot that morning. I guess
there must have been thirty people there during that day. Nobody saw
it. I was there twice that day. Mr. Starnes was there with me. He didn’t
call attention to any blood spots. Chie� Lanford was there, and he didn’t
discover any blood spots. Mr. Frank was at the police station on Monday
from 8:30 until about 11:30. Mr. Frank told me he had discharged Mr.
Gantt on account of shortage and had given orders not to let him in the
factory. As regards Mr. Frank’s linen, Mr. Haas said he was Mr. Frank’s
attorney and requested that we go to Mr. Frank’s house and look over
the clothes he had worn the week before and the laundry too. Yes, we
went out there and examined it. Mr. Frank had had no opportunity to
telephone his house from the time we mentioned it until we got out there.
He went with us and showed us the dirty linen. I examined Newt Lee’s
house. I found a bloody shirt in the bottom of a clothes barrel there on
Tuesday morning about 9 o’clock.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

Mr. Frank had told me that he didn’t think Newt Lee had told all he
knew about the murder. He also said after looking over the time sheet
and seeing that it hadn’t been punched correctly that that would have
given Lee an hour to have gone out to his house and back. I don’t know
when he made this last statement. I don’t remember whether that was
before or after I went out to Lee’s house and found the shirt. We went
into his house with a skeleton key. It was after Frank told me about the
skips in the punches. The shirt is just like it was the day I found it. The
blood looks like it is on both sides of the shirt.

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.

I don’t know whether I went out to Lee’s house before or after Mr.
Frank suggested the skips in the time slips. I don’t like to admit it, but
I am so crossed up and worried that I don’t know where I am at, but I
think to the best of my knowledge it was Monday that Frank said that
the slips had been changed.

MRS. J. W. COLEMAN, re-called for the State.

Mary carried a little silver mesh bag the day she left her home, made
of German silver. This looks like the handkerchief that she carried.
(State’s Exhibit” M.” )

J. M. GANTT, sworn for the State.

From June last until the first of January I was shipping clerk at the
National Pencil Company. I was discharged April 7th by Mr. Frank for
alleged shortage in the pay roll. I have known Mary Phagan when she
was a little girl. Mr. Frank knew her, too. One Saturday afternoon she
came in the office to have her time corrected, and after I had gotten
through Mr. Frank came in and said, “You seem to know Mary pretty
well,” No, I had not told him her name. I used to know Mary when she
was a little girl, but I have not seen her up to the time I went to work for
the factory. My work was in the office and she worked in the rear of the
building on the same floor in the tip department. After I was discharged,
I went back to the factory on two occasions. Mr. Frank saw me both
times. He made no objection to my going there. One girl used to get pay
envelopes for another girl with Mr. Frank’s knowledge. There was an
alleged shortage in the pay roll of $2.00. Mr. Frank came to see me about
it and I told him I didn’t know anything about it, and he said he wasn’t
going to make it good, and I said I wasn’t, and he then discharged me.
Prior to my being discharged Mr. Frank told me he had the best office
force he ever had. I was the time keeper. Mr. Frank could sit at his
desk and see the employees register at the time clock if the safe door was
closed. Mr. Frank did not fix the clock frequently, possibly two or three
times. On April 26th, about six o’clock I saw Newt Lee sitting out in
front of the factory and I remembered that I left a pair of shoes up there
and I asked Newt Lee what about my getting them, and he said he
couldn’t let me up. I said Mr. Frank is up there, isn’t he? because I had
seen him in the window from across the street, and while we were stand-
ing there talking, in two or three minutes, Mr. Frank was coming down
the stairway and got within fifteen feet of the door when he saw me and
when he saw me he kind of stepped back like he was going to go back,
but when he looked up and saw that I was looking at him he came on out,
and I said “Howdy, Mr. Frank,” and he kind of jumped again. I told
him I had a pair of shoes up there I would like to get and he said, “Do
you want to go with me, or will Newt Lee be all right?” and he kind of
studied a little bit, and said, “What kind of shoes were they?” and I
said, “They were tan shoes,” and he said, “I think I saw a negro sweep-
ing them up the other day.” And I said, “Well, I have a pair of black
ones there, too,” and he kind of studied a little bit, and said “Newt, go
ahead with him and stay with him until he gets his shoes,” and I went up
there and found both pair right where I had left them. Mr. Frank looked

pale, hung his head, and nervous and kind of hesitated and stuttered like
he didn’t like me in there somehow or other.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I testified at the coroner’s inquest. I admit I did not testify about
Frank’s knowing Mary very well there, that has been recalled to my
mind since I was arrested on Monday, April 28th, at 11 o’clock and held
until Thursday night about six.

MRS. J. A. WHITE, sworn for the State.

I saw my husband at the pencil factory at 11:30. I stayed there un-
til about 10 minutes to 12. I left him there and came back about 12:30
and left again about 1 o’clock. When I got there at 11:30 I saw Miss
Hall, the stenographer, Mr. Frank and two men. I asked Mr. Frank if I
could see my husband Mr. White. Mr. Frank was in the outside office
then. He said I could see him and sent word by Mrs. Emma Freeman for
him to come down-stairs. My husband came to the foot of the stairs on
the second floor. I talked to him about 15 minutes and went on out. I
returned about 12:30. Mr. Frank was in the outside office standing in
front of the safe. I asked him if Mr. White had gone back to work. He
jumped like I surprised him and turned and said, “Yes.” It wasn’t
much of a jump. I went upstairs then to see Mr. White. Harry Denham
was with him working on the fourth floor. They were hammering. It
was not a continuous noise they were making. I heard the. hammer not
more than once or twice. Mr. Frank came upstairs while I was up there,
somewhere about 1 o’clock. I know it was before one because at one I
was at McDonald’s furniture store, four or five blocks from the factory.
I got there a few minutes after one. Mr. Frank told Mr. White if I
wanted to get out before 3 o’clock, to come on down because he was going
to leave and lock the door, that I had better be ready to go as soon as he
got his coat and hat. I went on out and as I passed he was sitting in the
outside office writing at a table. As I was going on down the steps I saw
a negro sitting on a box close to the stairway on the first floor. Mr.
Frank did not have his coat or hat on when I passed out.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I left the factory about 1 o’clock. I wouldn’t say that it was posi-
tively ten minutes to one. While I was talking to my husband at the fac-
tory, Miss Corinthia Hall, May Barrett and her daughter were there.
Mrs. Barrett had been upstairs and her daughter came down afterwards.
Miss Hall and Mrs. Freeman left first, Mrs. Barrett and her daughter left
next and then I went. That was about ten minutes to twelve. I saw the
negro sitting between the stairway and the door about five or six feet
from the foot of the stairway. I wouldn’t be able to identify him.

HARRY SCOTT, sworn for the State.

I am Superintendent of the local branch of the Pinkerton Detective
Agency. I have worked on this case with John Black, city detective. I
was employed by Mr. Frank representing the National Pencil Company.
I saw Mr. Frank Monday afternoon, April 28th, at the pencil factory. We
went into Mr. Frank’s private office. Mr. Darley and a third party were
with us. Mr. Frank said, I guess you read in the newspapers about the
horrible crime that was committed in this factory, and the directors of
this company and myself have had a conference and thought that the
public should demand that we have an investigation made, and endeavor
to determine who is responsible for this murder.” And Mr. Frank then
said he had just come from police barracks and that Detective Black
seemed to suspect him of the crime, and he then related to me his move-
ments on Saturday, April 26th, in detail. He stated that he arrived at
the factory at 8 a. m., that he left the factory between 9:30 and 10 with
Mr. Darley for Montag Bros. for the mail, that he remained at Montag
Bros. for about an hour; that he returned to the factory at about 11
o’clock, and just before twelve o’clock Mrs. White, the wife of Arthur
White, who was working on the top floor of the building that day with
Harry Denham, came in and asked permission to go upstairs and see her
husband. Mr. Frank granted her permission to do so. He then stated
that Mary Phagan came in to the factory at 12:10 p. m. to draw her pay;
that she had been laid off the Monday previous and she was paid $1.20;
that he paid her off in his inside office where he was at his desk, and when
she left his office and went in the outer office, she had reached the outer
office door, leading into the hall and turned around to Mr. Frank and
asked if the metal had come yet; Mr. Frank replied that he didn’t know
and that Mary Phagan then he thought reached the stairway, and he
heard voices, but he could not distinguish whether they were men or girls
talking, that about 12:50 he went up to the fourth floor and asked White
and Denham when they would finish up their work and they replied they
wouldn’t finish up for a couple of hours; that Mrs. White was up there at
the time and Frank informed Mrs. White that he was going to lock up the
factory, that she had better leave; Mrs. White preceded Mr. Frank down
the stairway and went on out of the factory as far as he knew, but on the
way out, Mrs. White made the statement that she had seen a negro on
the street floor of the building behind some boxes, and Mr. Frank stated
that at 1:10 p. m. he left the factory for home to go to luncheon; he ar-
rived at the factory again at 3 p. m., went to work on some financial work
and at about four o’clock the night watchman reported for work, as per
Mr. Frank’s instructions the previous day; that he allowed Newt Lee to
go out and have a good time for a couple of hours and report again at six
o’clock, which Newt did and at six o’clock when Lee returned to the fac-
tory, he asked Mr. Frank, as he usually did, if everything was all right,
and Mr. Frank replied “Yes” and Lee went on about his business. Mr.
Frank left the factory at 6:04 p. m. and when he reached the street door

entrance he found Lee talking to Gantt, an ex-book-keeper who Frank
had discharged for thieving. Mr. Frank stated that he had arrived home
at about 6:25 p. m. and knowing that he had discharged Gantt, he tried to
get Lee on the telephone at about 6:30; knowing that Lee would be in the
vicinity of the time clock at that time and could hear the telephone ring;
that he did not succeed in getting him at 6:30, but that he got him at
seven; that he asked Lee the question if Gantt had left the factory and if
everything was all right, to which Lee replied “Yes,” and he hung up
the receiver. Mr. Frank stated he went to bed somewhere around 9:30.
After that Mr. Frank and Mr. Darley accompanied me around the
factory and showed me what the police had found. Mr. Darley being the
spokesman. We went first to the metal room on the second floor, where I
was shown some spots supposed to be blood spots, they were already
chipped up, and I was taken to a machine where some strands of hair
were supposed to have been found. From there we went down and exam-
ined the time clock and went through the scuttle hole and down the lad-
der into the basement, where I was shown where everything had been
found. As to Mr. Frank’s manner and deportment at the time we were
in his office, he seemed to be perfectly natural. I saw no signs of nervous-
ness. Occasionally between words he seemed to take a deep breath, and
deep sighs about four or five times. His eyes were very large and pierc-
ing. They looked about the same they do now. He was a little pale. He
gave his narrative rather rapidly. As to whether he stated any fixed
definite time as to hours or minutes, he didn’t state any definite time as
to when Mary Phagan came in, he said she came in at about 12:10. We
furnished attorneys for Frank with reports. After refreshing my mem-
ory I now state that Mr. Frank informed me at the time I had that con-
versation with him that he heard these voices before 12 o’clock, before
Mary Phagan came. He also stated during our conversation that Gantt
knew Mary Phagan very well, that he was familiar and intimate with
her. He seemed to lay special stress on it at the time. He said that Gantt
paid a good deal of attention to her. As to whether anything was said
by any attorney of Frank’s as to our suppressing any evidence as to this
murder, it was the first week in May when Mr. Pierce and I went to Mr.
Herbert J. Haas’ office in the 4th National Bank Building and had a con-
ference with him as to the Pinkerton Agency’s position in the matter.
Mr. Haas stated that he would rather we would submit our reports to him
first before we turned it over to the public and let them know what evi-
dence we had gathered. We told him we would withdraw before we
would adopt any practice of that sort, that it was our intention to work
in hearty co-operation with the police.
I saw the place near the girls’ dressing room on the office floor, fresh
chips had already been cut out of the floor and I saw white smeared
where the chips had been cut out and there were also some dark spots
near the chipped out places. It was just as though somebody had taken
a cloth and rubbed some white substance around in a circle, about eight
inches in diameter. This white stuff covered all of the dark spots. I

didn’t note any unusual signs of nervousness about Frank in his office.
There wasn’t any trembling or anything of that sort at that time. He
was not composed. On Tuesday night, April 29th, Black, Mr. Frank and
myself were together and Mr. Black told Mr. Frank that he believed
Newt Lee was not telling all that he knew. I also said to Mr. Frank that
Newt knew more than he was telling, and that as he was his employer, I
thought he could get more out of the nigger than we could, and I asked
him if he would consent to go into a room as employer and employee and
try to get it out of him. Mr. Frank readily consented and we put them in
a private room, they were together there for about ten minutes alone.
When about ten minutes was up, Mr. Black and I entered the room and
Lee hadn’t finished his conversation with Frank and was saying, “Mr.
Frank it is awful hard for me to remain handcuffed to this chair,” and
Frank hung his head the entire time the negro was talking to him, and
finally in about thirty seconds, he said, “Well, they have got me too.”
After that we asked Mr. Frank if he had gotten anything out of the negro
and he said, “No, Lee still sticks to his original story,” Mr. Frank was
extremely nervous at that time. He was very squirmy in his chair, cross-
ing one leg after the other and didn’t know where to put his hands; he
was moving them up and down his face, and he hung his head a great
deal of the time while the negro was talking to him. He breathed very
heavily and took deep swallows, and sighed and hesitated somewhat.
His eyes were about the same as they are now. That interview between
Lee and Frank took place shortly after midnight, Wednesday, April 30th.
On Monday afternoon, Frank said to me that the first punch on Newt
Lee’s slip was 6:33 p. m., and his last punch was 3 a. m. Sunday. He
didn’t say anything at that time about there being any error in Lee’s
punches. Mr. Black and I took Mr. Frank into custody about 11:30 a. m.
Tuesday, April 29th. His hands were quivering very much, he was very
pale. On Saturday, May 3d, I went to Frank’s cell at the jail with Black
and I asked Mr. Frank if from the time he arrived at the factory from
Montag Bros. up until 12:50 p. m., the time he went upstairs to the fourth
floor, was he inside of his office the entire time, and he stated “Yes.”
Then I asked him if he was inside his office every minute from 12 o’clock
until 12:30 and he said “Yes.” I made a very thorough search of the
area around the elevator and radiator and back in there. I made a sur-
face search. I found nothing at all. I found no ribbon or purse, or pay
envelope, or bludgeon or stick. I spent a great deal of time around the
trap door and I remember running the light around the door way right
close to the elevator, looking for splotches of blood, but I found nothing.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Yes, I sent you this report as to what happened between Mr. Herbert
J. Haas and myself: “This afternoon Supt. H. B. Pierce and myself held
a conference with Mr. Herbert Haas, at which the agency’s position in
the matter was discussed, and Mr. Haas stated they wanted to learn who

the murderer was, regardless of who it involved.” Mr. Haas told me
that after I had told him we would withdraw from the cause before we
would not co-operate with the police. No, I did not report that to you. I
reported the motive of our conference. No, I did not say anything about
Mr. Haas wanting us to do anything except locate the murderer. Yes, I
talked to you afterwards and you also told me to find the murderer, even
if it was Frank. Mr. Haas had said to Mr. Pierce and me that he would
rather that we submit our reports of evidence to him before we turned it
over to the police. No, there was nothing said about not giving this to
the police. I testified at the coroner’s inquest as to what conversation I
had with Mr. Frank. I did not give you in my report the details of Mr.
Frank’s morning movements, when he left home, arrived at the factory
and went to Montag Bros., and returned to the factory. As to my not
saying one word about Gantt being familiar with this little girl, that was
just an oversight, that is all. No, I did not testify to that either at the
coroner’s inquest. I didn’t put it in the report to you, because Gantt was
released the next day and I didn’t consider him a suspect. There was no
reason for my not giving it to you. It was an oversight. I am represent-
ing the National Pencil Company, who employed me, and not Mr. Frank
individually. It is true in my report to you with reference to the inter-
view between me and Mr. Frank that I stated “I had no way of knowing
what they said because they were both together privately in a room there
and we had no way of knowing except what Lee told us afterwards.” I
now state that I did hear the last words of Lee. I didn’t put in my notes
that Gantt was familiar with Mary Phagan, I don’t put everything in my
notes and the coroner didn’t examine me about it either. No, I didn’t
tell the coroner anything about Frank crossing his legs and putting his
hands up to his face. I never went into detail down there. No I didn’t
mention his hanging his head. We always work with the police on crim-
inal cases. No, I did not testify before the coroner about any white stuff
having been smeared over those supposed blood spots. I am not sure
whether I got the statement about Mary Phagan being familiar with
Gantt from Mr. Darley or Mr. Frank. Mr. Frank was present at the time.
Mr. Frank told me when the little girl asked if the metal had come back
that he said “I don’t know.” It may be true that I swore before the
coroner that in answer to that question from Mary Phagan as to whether
the metal had come yet that Frank said, “No,” and it is possible that I
so reported to you. If I said “No,” I meant “I don’t know.” I say now
that Mr. Frank told me he left the factory at 1:10 p. m. If I reported to
you that he told me he left at one o’clock, I made a very serious mistake.
That is an oversight. Yes, I reported to the police before I reported to
Mr. Haas or Mr. Montag.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

Yes, our agency reported to the police about finding the club. I find
it is in our report of May 15th. I don’t know when it was reported; I was

out of town. I worked all through this case with Detective Black and
every move he made was known to both of us. As to the stairway from
the basement to the upper floor, there was a great deal of dust on the
stairs and the dust didn’t seem to be disturbed. This stairway is not in
the picture but is near the back door. It was nailed and closed.

MISS MONTEEN STOVER, sworn for the State.

I worked at the National Pencil Company prior to April 25th, 1913.
I was at the factory at five minutes after twelve on that day. I stayed
there five minutes and left at ten minutes after twelve. I went there to
get my money. I went in Mr. Frank’s office. He was not there. I didn’t
see or hear anybody in the building. The door to the metal room was
closed. I had on tennis shoes, a yellow hat and a brown rain coat. I
looked at the clock on my way up, it was five minutes after twelve and it
was ten minutes after twelve when I started out. I had never been in his
office before. The door to the metal room is sometimes open and some-
times closed.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I didn’t look at the clock to see what time it was when I left home or
when I got back home. I didn’t notice the safe in Mr. Frank’s office. I
walked right in and walked right out. I went right through into the
office and turned around and came out. I didn’t notice how many desks
were in the outer office. I didn’t notice any wardrobe to put clothes in.
I don’t know how many windows are in the front office. I went through
the first office into the second office. The factory was still and quiet when
I was there. I am fourteen years old and I worked on the fourth floor of
the factory. I knew the paying-off time was twelve o’clock on Saturday
and that is why I went there. They don’t pay off in the office, you have
to go up to a little window they open.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

The door to the metal room is sometimes closed and sometimes open.
When the factory isn’t running the door is closed.

R. P. BARRETT, sworn for the State.

I am a machinist for the National Pencil Company. I have been
there about eight weeks. On Monday morning, April 28th, I found an
unusual spot that I had never seen before at the west end of the dressing
room on the second floor of the pencil factory. That spot was not there
Friday. The spot was about 4 or 5 inches in diameter and little spots

behind these from the rear-6 or 8 in number. I discovered these be-
tween 6:30 and 7 o’clock Monday. It was blood. It looked like some
white substance had been wiped over it. We kept potash and haskoline,
both white substances, on this floor. This white stuff was smeared over
the spots. It looked like it had been smeared with a coarse broom.
There was a broom on that floor, leaning up against the wall. No, the
broom didn’t show any evidence of having been used, except that it was
dirty. It was used in the metal department for cleaning up the grease.
The floor was regularly swept with a broom of finer straw. I found some
hair on the handle of a bench lathe. The handle was in the shape of an
“L.” The hair was hanging on the handle, swinging down. Mell Stan-
ford saw this hair. The hair was not there on Friday. The gas jet that
the girls sometimes use to curl their hair on is about ten feet from the
machine where the hair was found. Machine Number is No. 10. It is my
machine. I know the hair wasn’t there on Friday, for I had used that
machine up to quitting time, 5:30. There was a pan of haskoline about 8
feet from where the blood was found. The nearest potash was in vats in
the plating department, 20 or 25 feet away. The latter part of the week
I found a piece of a pay envelope (State’s Exhibit U) under Mary Pha-
gan’s machine. I have examined the area around the elevator on the
main floor and I looked down the ladder and I never saw any stick. I
did not find any envelope or blood or anything else there.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I never searched for any blood spots before, until Miss Jefferson
came in and said she understood Mary had been murdered in the metal
department, then I started to search right away; that was the only spot
I could find; I could tell it was blood by looking at it. I can tell the dif-
ference between blood and other substances. I found the hair some few
minutes afterward-about 6 or 8 strands of hair and pretty long. When
I left the machine on Friday I left a piece of work in there. When I got
back the piece of work was still there. It had not been disturbed. The
machine was in the same position in which I left it Friday night; there
was no blood under this machine. There is no number or amount on the
envelope I found, and no name on it, just a little loop, a part of a letter.
Yes, I have been aiding Mr. Dorsey and the detectives search the build-
ing. Yes, Mr. Dorsey subpoenaed me to come to his office; it was a State
subpoena. I gave him an affidavit.

MELL STANFORD, sworn for the State.

I have been working at the National Pencil Company a little over
two years. I swept the whole floor in the metal room on Friday, April the
25th. On Monday thereafter I found a spot that had some white hasko-
line over it on second floor near dressing room. That wasn’t there on

Friday when I swept between 9 and 12 o’clock. I use a small broom in
sweeping. I saw a big cane broom standing by the waste metal room on
Monday about six feet from where the blood was found. The spot looked
to me like it was blood, with dark spots scattered around. It looked like
the large broom had been used in putting the haskoline on the floor by
the impressions or scratches of the cane in the floor.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I was a sweeper in the metal room. Yes, they have regular negro
sweepers there for the building. I swept it all up because the negro
wasn’t there. It took me from 9 till 12 to sweep the whole floor. I moved
everything and swept everything. I swept under Mary Phagan’s and
Barrett’s machine. Next to the ladies’ closet they store a lot of different
things, mineral paints, barrels, boxes, all sort of things. That’s part of
the metal room where they are kept. I swept clear up to the doors of the
toilets and clear up to the paint shop. It wasn’t my duty to sweep where
the machines are and where Mary worked but I did sweep there anyhow.
I have done that several times before. There were paint spots in several
different places up there when I swept up Friday. These blood spots
were right in front of the ladies’ dressing room. They led right up to the
door.

MRS. GEORGE W. JEFFERSON, sworn for the State.

I worked at the National Pencil Company. We saw blood on the sec-
ond floor in front of the girls’ dressing room on Monday. It was about as
big as a fan, and something white was over it. I didn’t see that blood
there Friday. Yes, there are cords in the polishing room, used to tie
pencils with. They are hung up on a post in the polishing room. The
spots were dark red in color. These cords are taken off the pencils and
we throw them on a nail. We don’t untie the knots. This loop right here
is in all of the cords. I work in the polishing room, polishing lead pen-
cils. I have been working there five years. We use paint in there, ma-
roon red, red line and bright red. Of course you can tell the bright red
from maroon red and the red line from maroon red. That spot that I
saw was not one of these three paints.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Mr. Barrett and I discovered that spot there together. Yes, that is a
dirty, greasy floor. You can see grease, but you don’t see anything red
on the floor-not in the metal room. You do in the polishing room. The
paints don’t come from the metal room. They are kept back in the other
room. We carry the paint back in bottles. Of course if a bottle would
break the paint would get all over the floor. The white stuff there didn’t
hide the red at all. You could see it plainly.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

The pencils are painted on the third floor. There isn’t any paint used
at all in the factory only in the polishing room, except on the third floor.

B. B. HASLETT, sworn for the State.
I went to Mr. Frank’s house Monday morning after the murder,
about 7 o’clock. I went out there and got him and took him to the sta-
tion house. He was at the station house two or three hours. I told him
Chief Lanford wanted to see him.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I saw Mr. Rosser and Mr. Haas at the station house about 8:30 or 9
o’clock. Mr. Black and I both went out for Mr. Frank Monday morning.
We took him to the station house and turned him over to Chief Lanford.
They had Mr. Frank in there and a half dozen detectives, and Mr. Haas
and you were there. When we went out to Mr. Frank’s house he went
with us. As to whether he had to go or not, I suppose if he had resisted
we would have taken him. It was not a question as to whether he wanted
to go or not, but he didn’t know he had to go. As to why two of us went
out after him-two of us generally go together after anybody, because if
he don’t go voluntarily, he would go anyhow, we would take him.

E. F. HOLLOWAY, sworn for the State.
I am day watchman at the National Pencil factory-worked there
two years. I was there on April 26th, from 6:30 a. m. till 11:45. I look
after the elevator and freight that come in and out and people that come
in and out. As to what I did to the elevator on that Saturday, I didn’t do
anything except that when Mr. White and Mr. Denham were working on
the top floor, I started the elevator up and ripped up a plank for them.
The elevator was locked when I sawed that plank for them, but when I
left it was unlocked. I locked it Friday night when I left there. But I
went off from there Saturday and forgot to lock it. When I made that
affidavit for you on May 12th, 1913, I forgot to tell you that I did some
sawing for Mr. White and Mr. Denham. The elevator was standing on
the office floor when I left there Saturday. I left it standing right there.
I had done some sawing for Mr. White and Mr. Denham just before I left
and in talking to them I went off and forgot to lock it. In affidavit signed
May 12th, 1913, in presence of Starnes, Campbell and others, in answer
to question, “Is the power box left locked or unlocked?” I will say I
locked it Friday when I left there. I don’t remember saying in this affi-
davit that if the elevator box was kept unlocked on account of insurance
companies requiring it that I never heard of it, that they always told me
to lock it. I don’t remember any questions being asked me about any
keys. I read and signed my name to that paper before I signed it. I

don’t remember stating that I locked it Saturday. I did say in that affi-
davit it is kept locked all the time. The reason I said at the coroner’s in-
quest that the elevator box was always locked and that I left it locked on
Saturday was because I forgot to tell about that sawing. I did that saw-
ing just before I left there Saturday. Friday evening I never heard Mr.
Frank say anything to Newt Lee. When I left the factory at 11:45 on
Saturday Mr. Frank said to me “You can go ahead if you want to; we
will all go at noon.” At about 9:30 Mr. Frank and Mr. Darley went over
to Montag Bros. I have seen Gantt talking to Mary Phagan frequently.
The stairs leading from the first floor into the basement are in good con-
dition. They haven’t been used this year. They have been nailed up all
the year. The area on first floor around trap-door down there was cleaned
up about two weeks after the insurance people came over and went
through the building.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Mr. Denham and Mr. White were working there Saturday, up on the
fourth floor. They were up there when I left the building. Anybody
could have walked from the fourth floor to the second floor all day long;
there was no obstruction. A man at the stairway on the third floor can
see the second floor in front of the clock. The front doors were unlocked
all the morning and they were still unlocked when I left. When Mr. Den-
ham and Mr. White asked me to saw some timber for them that morning,
I went and got the key and unlocked the motor that runs the elevator. I
left it unlocked after that. Anybody could have started the elevator run-
ning then by throwing in the switch. I am familiar with the floor back
there in the metal department. It is a very dirty, greasy, stained up floor
-there isn’t a worse one in town. Whenever you walk along there you
will fall down if you are not very particular. The floor has never been
washed all the three years that I have been there. You see the analines
and white stuff scattered all over the floor every day and the sweepers
just sweep it along together. You see spots on the floor quite frequently.
We work about 100 girls in the factory. Four or five of them work in the
metal room. There is a ladies’ dressing room right there where they
chipped up the spots, and right across from there is the toilet, not over
six feet from it. I have seen blood spots frequently ever since I have
been working there around the ladies’ toilets and the ladies’ dressing
rooms; the foreladies would always tell me about it and I have often
noticed it when we were working or sweeping or anything of the kind,
and I would know what it meant. I would go back and have it cleaned.
These spots that Barrett claims to have found I don’t recall having
noticed before; they would not have attracted my attention. They were
right on the way to the ladies’ dressing room. Yes, this man Barrett dis-
covered mighty near everything that was discovered in the building-
hair, blood, and pay envelope. That is what he says. No, I have never
seen Mr. Frank speak to Mary Phagan. I was at the factory at 6:30 Sat-

urday morning. I was the first man that got there. Denham and White
came in about 7 o’clock and went up on the fourth floor. They were do-
ing some work up there. I had to saw that plank for them. They told me
that it would take them until about 3 o’clock. The office boy, Alonzo
Mann, 13 or 14 years old, came in next. Mr. Frank came in about 8:30 or
8:45. He went right in his office, unlocked his safe and got out his books
and went to work on them. Mr. Darley was the next one that came in and
Miss Mattie Smith the next. She stayed about 10 minutes and went out
again. I met Miss Corinthia Hall and Miss Emma Clark at the corner of
Hunter and Broad coming toward the factory just as I was leaving. Miss
Clark asked me if anybody was there-said she wanted her wrap, it was
turning cold, and I said, “Yes, Mr. Frank will let you have it.” There
were several others came in that morning, but they came in while I was
up stairs with Mr. White and Mr. Denham. There was no lock at all on
the metal room door. Newt Lee closed up the building Friday. He looks
after all the doors and windows plumb back to the back door in the base-
ment. There were 7 or 8 negroes about the building, elevator boys and
sweepers. On Saturday they paid off at 12 o’clock, right at the clock.
Mr. Frank would always be in his office attending to his books when they
paid off. We put up a sign saying that the paying off would be done Fri-
day night instead of Saturday, because Saturday was a holiday. We put
four signs on every floor. Elevator shaft is closed by sliding doors. Any-
body can raise them, they are not locked. It is very dark around the ele-
vator shaft on the first floor, filled with boxes all around there. We have
two clocks. One runs to 100 and the others runs from 100 to 200. Each
employe has a number. That is the reason we have two clocks. When
Miss Mattie Smith came in she discovered a mistake about her time by
the time she reached the clock. Mr. Frank and Mr. Darley corrected it in
the office and then she left. Mr. Frank got back from Montag’s about 11
o’clock. He had with him the folder in which he carries his papers. No-
body was with him when he came back. He went right up into his office.
The stenographer was in the outer office when he got there. These cords
here are found laying around everywhere in the building. They come on
every bundle of slats that come into the building. The pencils are tied
up with those slats at the top floor, brought down by elevator, carried in
the packing room and those strings are then put on them. They get in
the trash every day and into the basement. It is impossible to keep them
out. I did not see Mary Phagan or Monteen Stover. The negro Conley
was familiar with the whole building, every part of it.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

White and Denham were working on the fourth floor about thirty
feet from the elevator. On May 12, 1913, I told you that the elevator was
locked because I forgot to tell you I done some sawing. I took the key
out, left the elevator unlocked and took the key back and put it in the
office. Mr. Darley got to the factory about 9 o’clock Saturday. Miss
Mattie Smith got there about 9:10.

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.

When I gave Mr. Dorsey that affidavit about locking the elevator I
was telling more about my habit, the way I usually did it. I forgot to tell
him about sawing those planks that Saturday morning and the fact that
I sawed those planks makes me know that I left the elevator unlocked.
The elevator makes a good deal of noise when it starts and when it stops.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

I was on the second floor when all of these people came in the fac-
tory. Mr. Frank worked on his books until he got ready to go to Mon-
tags, I think it was about an hour. I checked freight with a one-legged
drayman about 10:30; his wagon was right in front of the door.

N. V. DARLEY, sworn for the State.

My name is N. V. Darley. I am manager of the Georgia Cedar Com-
pany, a branch of the National Pencil Company. I have charge of the
manufacturing and labor in the Forsyth Street plant. Mr. Sig Montag is
my superior. Mr. Frank and I are of equal dignity in the factory. I was
at the National Company’s factory on Saturday, April 26th. I saw Mr.
Frank and left about 9:40 in the morning. I was there Sunday morning
at about 8:20. I saw Mr. Frank that morning. Observed nothing un-
usual when I first saw him. When we started to the basement I noticed
his hands were trembling. I observed that he seemed still nervous when
he went to nail up the back door. When we started down to nail up the
back door he made some remark about having on new clothes or some
more clothes and he pulled his coat off to keep it from getting soiled.
When we left the station house and started towards Bloomfields he told
me why he was nervous. He said that he had not had breakfast and
didn’t get any coffee and that they had rushed him by Bloomfields, car-
ried him in a dark room and turned the light on and he saw the girl in-
stantly and that was why he was nervous. The elevator was unlocked.
I don’t know where the key was. Newt Lee seemed to be thoroughly
composed. Mr. Frank stated to me in the basement that he thought that
the murder was committed in the basement. Mr. Frank, stated that it
looked easy for the staple to be pulled out and I agreed with him, because
the staple looked black and it looked to me as if it had been pulled out
before. On Monday Mr. Frank explained again why he was nervous Sun-
day morning. I heard him speak of the murder numerous times. When
we started down the elevator Mr. Frank was nervous, shaking all over. I
can’t say positively as to whether his whole body was shaking or not, but
he was shaking. Newt Lee seemed to be composed when I saw him at the
factory. Mr. Fiank could have driven the nails in the back door, but I
thought I could do it with more ease. Mr. Frank looked pale Sunday
morning. I think he seemed upset, but he did some things around the

factory there that a man who was completely upset could not have done,
J don’t think. When riding down to the police station from the pencil
factory Mr. Frank was on my knee, he was trembling. I saw the financial
sheet on Mr. Frank’s desk. Mr. Frank picked it up in his hand. Gantt
was at the factory three or four times after he was discharged. My recol-
lection is that Frank said something about the financial sheet on Sunday.
It was on May 3rd that Mr. Haas, the insurance man, asked that the fac-
tory be cleaned upon the Malsby side and on the other side. When my
attention was called to it I noticed something that looked like blood with
something white over it at the ladies’ dressing room on Monday morning.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Mr. Quinn called my attention to the blood spots, Barrett called
Quinn’s attention to it. Barrett showed me some hair on a lever of the
lathe. It was 20 or 30 feet from Mary Phagan’s machine on the north
side of the room. There were no blood spots on it. I don’t think any-
body could answer how many strands of hair Barrett found. They were
wound around the lever. I don’t think there were over 6 or 8 at the out-
side. It was pretty hard to tell the color. It is my understanding that
Barrett has been doing most of the discovering done in the building. He
has lost quite some time since the murder, and buys quite some extras
and reads them. The white stuff practically hid the spots. It looked
like there had been an attempt to hide them, but you could see the spots.
It looked like the man who tried to hide them, if anybody did, made a
smearing motion and left the spots showing. I saw no blood spots on
Mary Phagan’s machine. There are hundreds of pay envelopes distrib-
uted every week in the factory. The rule is that if a person goes outside
of the factory and finds an envelope short we do not correct it. As the
pay envelopes are distributed they take them and tear them off, just like
this one. The employees take the money out and scatter the envelopes
all over the factory. On the second floor where the metal room is is the
main place where you find the pay envelopes. I was present on Sunday
morning when the time slip was taken out. I was looking over Mr.
Frank’s shoulder. Mr. Frank run it down the number side. This time
slip (Defendant’s Exhibit “I”) looks like the one. Mr. Frank looked
down the number side and said it was all right and I verified it. I didn’t
notice between 9:32 and 10:29 if there was any punch, or between 11:04
and 12, or between 2:03 and 3:01. I identify this (Exhibit “I” defend-
ant) by the numbers 6:01 and 6:32. I look over the financial sheets every
Saturday afternoon. The factory week runs from Friday morning till
Thursday night. The financial sheet is usually completed about 5:30
Saturday afternoon. The financial sheet shows the week’s operation of
the factory; the production of the factory, the different kinds of pencils
that were produced. There are perhaps 75 or 80 different kinds, besides
the special imprint pencils. Mr. Frank had to get all the data from the
-jarious departments of the factory, particularly the packing room. The

cost of production was estimated most of the time as to the merchandise.
The other things were real figures. Merchandise is bought by the month
and he had to figure it up at the end of the month to get the average. To
arrive at the profit that was made during the week he took the actual
value of the pencil and the amount of expenses that was paid out for ma-
terial, labor, etc. He had to get all the data, all the reports and make all
those calculations. It usually took him from about half past two or three
o’clock on Saturday until five-thirty, and some times later. This finan-
cial sheet (Defendant’s Exhibit “2”) is in Frank’s handwriting and is
the one I saw on his desk Sunday morning. I left the factory at 9:40
and he hadn’t started the financial sheet then. He usually started
the financial sheet from 2:30 to 3 o’clock. I am familiar with Frank’s
handwriting. All of this financial sheet is in his handwriting. To
get the figures 27651/2, net 27191/2, under material cost, he had to
look at how many labels had been used, how many boxes, whether
they were carton or plain ones, partition, rubbers, amount of lead used
and amount of slate used. He got the reports that gave him that data
from the different departments of the factory. To arrive at that result is
quite a calculation. It is my opinion that it took a skillful, clear-headed
man to calculate that. Yes, I am familiar with the elements that enter
into that calculation. To arrive at the net results of the figures just
named, you have to get the amount of rubbers, tips, lead, wrappers, la-
bels, boxes, whether carton or plain boxes, partition, whether it is cheap
or good lead. The 27651/2 means 27651/2 gross. Further on down you
find the different items that make up that figure under the head of wrap-
pers, leads, tips, etc. The next figure is under rubber, 720 gross at 61/2c.
Those figures come from the plugging department or he can get them
from the goods as they are delivered to the packing room, by knowing
the styles and numbers, you can tell whether it is a tipped or untipped
pencil. You get that from the shipping room and the other from the
metal room. He arrives at the figures on the reports turned in. It re-
quires a good deal of calculation, mostly multiplying. The next figure is
under tips, 1374 gross at ten cents. He gets that from the packing room.
The ten cents means what the tips cost to produce. That’s a stipulated
price. The next heading is lead, 747 gross at 15c. and 1955 gross at ten
cents. He has to go through these reports the same way except he doesn’t
have to work the cost of that, it’s taken care of in the account. He has to
arrive at the number of gross, but the cost is fixed. The next item is sup-
plied at 5c. per gross, boxes 3771 at 2c., assortment boxes 279 at 10c.,
wrappers 2535 at lc. He gets those reports from the boxes of pencils in
the packing room. He gets the reports as to the rubbers and the labels
from the packing room. The cost per gross is fixed, but he has to figure
out the quantity. The next item is assortment boxes, wrappers, skele-
tons. The next item, cartons. The next item is pay roll, Bell Street. The
next, slats from the slat mills. As the slats are delivered from the slat
mill, a report comes with it, and those reports are taken at the end of the
week and added up. There are about five of those shipments during the

week. He has to take the data that accompanys each shipment and adds
all that up at the end of the week. The next item is “pencils packed,”
(top of sheet). There are 24 itemized here, and the word “jobs” implies
I don’t know how many different kind of jobs. There are 24 different
kind of pencils. He puts them there as having been produced that week.
He got the reports as to the quantity of each kind of pencil and had to
tabulate all those reports and arrive at the total of each kind. No, I
don’t think he had to figure out the cost of production of each kind, but
he figures the quantity of each kind of pencil and shows its value on the
sheet. Starnes and Black and Anderson and Dobbs were there on Sun-
day morning. We went all over the factory. I don’t remember about
hearing of any blood being found on Sunday at all. There was a great
deal of excitement there that morning. We see spots all over the factory
floor. We have varnish spots, and people get their fingers cut, we have
every color spots you can think of. I have been working in factories for
24 years. It is a frequent occurrence in establishments where a large
number of ladies work that you will see blood spots around dressing
rooms. I have seen them a good many times. I have seen it at this fac-
tory. Mr. Frank had on a brown suit on Saturday and Monday. On
Sunday he had a different suit on. I never noticed any scratches, marks
or bruises on Mr. Frank on Sunday. There was a little girl in Mr.
Frank’s office on Saturday morning, by the name of Miss Mattie Smith,
and her sister-in-law’s time was wrong and Mr. Frank told her to wait a
few minutes and he would straighten it out for her. She had been paid
$3.10 too much, and she gave me back the money when she found it was
wrong and I gave it to Mr. Frank and he said he was glad because it bal-
anced his cash. She thenstarted out of the factory and got to the stair-
way and she came back again and said that her time was wrong the other
way, and I said “Little girl will it do all right to straighten it -Monday,”
and she said “Yes.” I then asked her how was her father, and she said,
“My father is dying, I think.” Then she spoke to me about getting some
assistance from the office for burial expenses, and she commenced to cry
and I walked down the steps with her to the front door. That was about
9:20. Mr. Frank stayed at the factory until 9:40, when we left together.
We went on up to the corner of Hunter and Forsyth, took a drink of soda-
water at Cruickshank’s at the corner of Forsyth and Hunter. He left me
then and started towards Montag’s. That’s the last I saw of him until
Sunday morning. The elevator box was unlocked Sunday morning, and
anybody could have pulled it open and started the elevator. The eleva-
tor makes some noise. It is driven by a motor. It makes more noise
when it stops at the bottom than when it starts. There is nothing to stop
it except when it hits the bottom. I have seen these cords that we tie up
slats and pencils with in every part of the factory. I have raised sand
about finding them in the basement; they go down in the garbage. There
are several truck loads of waste and debris every day. The general clean-
ing up of the premises was had on Tuesday after the murder. The fac-
tory is five stories high, between 150 and 200 feet in length and 75 or 80

feet wide. It is an extremely dirty place. In some places the floor is
gummed an inch thick, and in some parts of the metal room it is one-
eighth of an inch thick, it might not average that all over. It is always
dark on the first floor, through the hall toward the elevator. On a cloudy
day it is very dark. We keep a light burning there most of the time. I
couldn’t say whether we had cleaned up all the trash and rubbish around
the factory, because there are corners and crevices which we don’t usu-
ally get to. Saturday, April 26th, was a dark, bad, misty day, until about
9:30. It was cloudy most of the day. It was dark there around the ele-
vator on the first floor and we had big heavy boxes piled up there. One
of them must have been almost as large as a piano box. If a man got be-
tween those boxes, we would have had to hunt to find him. It is very dark
on the second floor between the clock and the metal room. It is dark be-
hind the ladies dressing room and on the side next to the ladies’ toilet.
As you go to the stairs from the metal room, it is very dark. A person
sitting at Mr. Frank’s desk in his office could not see anyone coming up
those stairs. It would be impossible to see anyone coming up those steps
from anywhere in Mr. Frank’s inner office, you would have to go outside
of it. There is no lock on the metal room doors. In the metal room there
are a great many vats and a great many boxes and things containing
stock and goods just south of the ladies’ dressing room. It is piled up
very bad back there. Averaged anywhere from 2 to 6 or 8 feet in height.
It isn’t used at all except for storage. The metal room contains three or
four large vats that have got lids on them. They are shallow, but they
are large inside. They are about a foot and a half deep. Nobody is sup-
posed to be in any part of the building on Sunday, that is the only time
we don’t have a watchman. The factory is supposed to be locked en-
tirely. The elevator steel cables have some slack in them. It isn’t like a
stiff iron in them. It would shake when you catch hold of it. There are
two cables, you pull the right one to come down and the left one to go up.
You can catch it and shake it in your hand. Yes, Mr. Frank is a small,
thin man, about 125 or 130 pounds. Yes, Mr. Dorsey served a subpoena
on me to come down to his office. I didn’t know that he did not have any
right to subpoena me. Yes, I thought I was being subpoenaed to come
into court. They served two subpoenaes on me and sent for me one time.
The first time I went there, Chief Lanford, Mr. Dorsey, Mr. Stephens and
the stenographer was there. They all asked me questions. One would
ask me a question and before I got that answered, another would ask me
a question. The next time I went there, Mr. Dorsey, Mr. Starnes, Mr.
Campbell and the stenographer were there. Mr. Dorsey did all the ques-
tioning this time. When Mr. Frank was engaged on his work in the fac-
tory he was very intent on his work, very earnest and industrious. I
don’t think a day passed at the factory that Mr. Frank did not get ner-
vous. When anything went wrong he would wring his hands and I have
seen him push his hands through his hair. When things went wrong it
would upset him. If anything out of the ordinary happened I have seen
him a thousand times, I suppose, rub his hands. At a factory like this

things don’t usually go right all day, there is something wrong all the
time. When anything went wrong it rattled him and he would fre-
quently call on me to straighten it out. He would show the most nervous-
ness when he would go over to Montag’s with the mail, and he would
raise sand about something and he would come back very nervous. If
Mr. Frank saw anything going wrong inside the factory, he would refer
the matter to me. I never saw Mr. Frank speak to Mary Phagan. I don’t
know whether he knew her or not. I didn’t know we had a girl by that
name in the factory until I found it out afterwards. The two men work-
ing up in the fourth floor all day Saturday could have come to the second
floor into the metal room and down into the basement if they wanted to,
they had the whole run of the factory. Yes, I have seen all kinds of
papers down in the basement. The paper that note is written on is a
blank order pad. It is either the carbon or white sheet, one is white and
one is yellow. That kind of paper is liable to be found all over the build-
ing for this reason, they write an order, and some times fail to get the
carbon under it, and at other times they have to change the order and
tear it out and throw it in the waste basket in the office and from there it
gets into the trash. That kind of little pad is used all over the factory.
The foreladies make their memorandum on that kind of tablet. You will
find them all around. It is one of the biggest wastes around the place.
They are all over the building, and any man that worked around the fac-
tory or ran the elevator or swept up the different floors would be more
likely to come across them than anyone else, because they are thrown on
the floor. There was an order to keep the clock door locked, but on this
occasion the key was lost and the clock door was open. When I got there
Sunday morning the clock door was unlocked. Mr. Frank could not have
unlocked it because the key was lost. With the clock door unlocked, any-
one who understands the clock, could have punched for all night in five
or ten minutes. I made the same mistake Mr. Frank made in thinking
that all the punches had been made all right. I looked over the factory
at noon to-day and compared it with some points on this picture (Exhibit
“A” for State). This big space in the cellar appears to be short. Those
steps in the cellar are much longer in reality. The platform itself is
about 15 feet long, and the incline is 17 feet, making 32 feet the length of
it. The distance between the walls of Mr. Frank’s office and the elevator
shaft is 5 feet to 5 inches. The elevator shaft is ten feet, but on the pic-
ture the space between the elevator shaft and Mr. Frank’s office looks al-
most as wide as the elevator shaft itself. One is ten feet and the other is
5Kv/. As to what occasions I recall seeing Mr. Frank nervous, I recall
onee that he came in one afternoon on a street car when it ran over a little
child. He came in about 2:30 and he couldn’t work any more on his books
until a quarter after four. He trembled just as much on that occasion as
he did on the Sunday after Mary Phagan was killed. Another time I re-
member when I went over to the main factory and he and Mr. Montag
had a fuss on the fourth floor. Mr. Montag hollered at him considerably
and he was very nervous the rest of the evening, he shook and trembled.

He says “Mr. Darley I just can’t work,” and some of the boys told me he
took some spirits of ammonia for his nerves. Everybody was excited in
the factory that morning after Mary Phagan was killed. Starnes and
Black and Rogers were there and it seems like they were all excited.
Looked like everybody was worried. As to another mistake in the pic-
ture (State’s Exhibit A), the bottom of the ladder in the basement is
much closer to the elevator than what is shown on the picture. It is
about 6 feet. On the picture it looks to be about 10 feet and the toilet in
the basement is closer to the wall than the picture shows, it is right up
against the wall. The picture doesn’t show the Clarke Woodenware par-
tition back of the elevator. The door to the Clarke Woodenware Com-
pany also is closer to the elevator than the picture shows. On the stairs
from the first to the second floor there are double doors instead of single
doors as shown on the picture. The picture shows up Frank’s inner of-
fice a good deal larger than the other office. As a matter of fact the outer
office is larger. The outer office is 12 feet 4 inches wide. The inner office
ten feet 3. The picture shows a great big wide place for a door between
the inside office and the outside office, making it look like a double door.
That is a representation to show a full view from Frank’s desk into the
hall, as a matter of fact it is a single door, standard size. It looks like it
was drawn to open up a space to give as much view as possible out into
the hall. The safe is shown to be about half its real size on this picture.
On the picture it is shown to be about one-third the width of the door, as
a matter of fact it is about the same size. When the safe door is open, it
shuts off three-fourths of the view from Frank’s office out into the hall,
unless you stand up high enough to look over it. The picture also shows
the south wall of the outer office on a line with the clock. The picture
doesn’t show up the wardrobe in the inner office, nor the two cabinets
that are in there. I don’t think it is a very accurate picture. It opens up
Frank’s inner office a whole lot better than it really opens up. Sitting at
Frank’s desk and looking out through the door towards the clock, in re-
ality you have a looking space of only 25 inches. You can just see about
four numbers on clock number 2. You could not see anywhere near the
stair case, or in the neighborhood of it.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

I felt nervous from the time they told me the girl was dead, until I
left the building. I was not trembling, I was simply excited and worried.
Well, Starnes was nervous. He looked as if he were worried. He seemed
nervous both in talk and manner. I can say the same thing of the rest of
the officers who were there. Mr. Frank was more nervous than the others.
The men were all about as nervous on Monday and Tuesday. Every-
body seemed to be in a turmoil and shaking. Mr. Holloway and Mr.
Schiff were shaking. I noticed Mr. Schiff’s hands shaking Monday
morning. Mr. Holloway was about in the same shape. Mr. Frank was
very nervous Tuesday after the extra came out saying that they were

going to arrest him. That was about 15 or 20 minutes before they ar-
rested him. As to who gets up the data for Mr. Frank for the financial
sheets, Mr. Loeb some times, and Mr. Gantt used to get up some, and Mr.
Schiff gets it up some times. Mr. Frank got it up himself, some times.
No, I do not know that Mr. Schiff furnished it to him all the time. I never
noticed whether Lee was nervous or not at any time, but of course, he
looked bothered and worried. Mr. Frank told me that the slip he took out
of the clock Sunday morning had been punched regularly. I made the
same mistake standing right there by his side. I didn’t see Mr. Frank
date the slip. It ought to have been dated the 26th. The slip I saw didn’t
have any time on it except the watchman’s time. I don’t know whether
I would know it or not, to identify. The slips are not made in duplicate.
As to whether there is any mark on the slip to enable any one to identify
it, as the one taken out that night, my memory is that it was started at
6:01 or 6:32. Of course nobody could ten who punched the clock, one
man’s punch is just like another. That diagram or picture (State’s Ex-
hibit A) is a fair representation of the building as a whole, it is not a fair
representation of the interior. I never knew there were any stairs in the
basement until this matter came up. They are never used to my knowl-
edge. There is a way of closing the door in rear of second floor from up-
stairs. The regular place of keeping these order blank books is in the
outer office. There is no regular place in the basement to keep paper, but
it is thrown out in the waste basket and gets down in the trash. There is
no use for that paper anywhere but in the office, but that doesn’t prevent
it from being scattered around. I have scratch pads of that shape seat-
tered around even in the basement. That scratch pad is used all over the
factory, everywhere there is a foreman or a forelady. No, not in the area
around the elevator there. The trash is carried downstairs right in front
of the boiler. Sometimes if they are in a hurry they leave it around the
elevator for a little while, and when I go down I make the negro move it
to the boiler. It is usually burned. Some of it may stay there for a week,
some of it burned right away.
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION BY DEFENDANT.
As to people being nervous, Montag and Frank merely had some
words when Frank became so nervous. Schiff was trembling Monday,
Holloway also, I noticed Miss Flowers began to cry and scream and I had
to go in there and get hold of her myself. That was Tuesday morning.
The whole factory was wrought up. I couldn’t hardly keep anybody at
work. I had to let them go on Monday, and I wished I had let them go
for the rest of the week, for I couldn’t get any work out of them. I
wouldn’t say that I couldn’t get any work out of Christopher Columbus
Barrett, since, but he has lost a good deal of time. I would have to look
to the pay roll to tell.
W. F. ANDERSON, sworn for the State.
I was at police headquarters Saturday, April 26th. I got a call from

the night, watchman at the pencil factory. He said a woman was dead at
‘the factory. I asked him if it was a white woman or a negro woman. He
said it was a white woman. We went there in an automobile, shook the
door and Newt Lee came down from the second floor and carried us back
to the ladder that goes down through the scuttle hole. About 3:30 I
called up Mr. Frank on the telephone and got no answer. I heard the
telephone rattling and buzzing. I continued to call for about five min-
utes. I told Central that there had been a girl killed in the factory and
.I wanted to get Mr. Frank. I called Mr. Haas and Mr. Montag, too. I
,got a response from both, I think a lady answered the telephone. I got
.them in a few minutes. I tried to get Mr. Frank again about four o’clock.
Central said she rang and she couldn’t get him. There was some blood
on the girl’s underclothes.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
There was a wound on the left-hand side of the girl’s head. The
-blood was dried up. It was wet right next to the skin. Lee said over the
telephone that it was a white girl. It took us about three minutes to get
to the factory from the police station, just as quick as the automobile
could get us there. We got there inside of five minutes after I received
his telephone message. Lee had a smoky lantern. You couldn’t see very
-far with it. It was smoked up right smart. Lee said he had been to the
closet and had his lantern sitting down there and he looked over and saw
the lady. He said, he saw her while he was standing up. I said he
couldn’t see her. You could see the bulk of anything that far, but you
couldn’t tell that far whether it was a person. He told me when I first
got him that he had his lantern sitting down right in front of him. The
body was lying sort of catecornered and on the left side of the body I saw
a number of tracks which lead from the body to the shaving room. There
is an opening from the place where the body lay into the shaving room.
I found a pencil down there. There are plenty of pencils and trash in the
basement. The trash was all up next to the boiler.

H. L. PARRY, sworn in behalf of the State.
I reported the statement of Leo M. Frank before the coroner’s jury.
I have been a stenographer for thirty years and considered an expert.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
Newt Lee was asked the following questions and gave the following
answers at the coroner’s jury: “Q. Had you ever seen him change that
before? A. Well, he put the tape in once before. Q. When was that?
A. I don’t know, sir, when it was, it was one night. Q. How long did it
take him the first time you ever saw him put the tape on ? A. I never
paid any attention to him. Q. Well, about how long did it take him, five
minutes? A. No, sir, it didn’t take him that long. Q. Did it take him
a minute? A. I couldn’t tell exactly how long. Q. How long did it take
the other night, on Saturday night? A. Well, it took him a pretty good
little bit, because he spoke about it. He said it’s pretty hard, you know,
to get on.” I don’t know whether he swore anything, else on that partic-
ular subject without examining the record.

G. C. FEBRUARY, sworn for the State.
I was present at Chief Lanford’s office when Leo M. Frank and L. Z.
Rosser were there. I took down Mr. Frank’s statement stenographically.
I don’t remember Frank’s answers in detail, Mr. Rosser was looking out
of the window most of the time. He didn’t say anything while I was in
there. This (Exhibit B, State), report is correct report of what Mr.
Frank said. It was made on Monday, April 28th.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I believe Mr. Rosser and Mr. Frank were in the room when I came in.
It was sometime in the forenoon. I have never been a court stenographer
except in Recorder’s court. I am Chief Lanford’s private secretary. Mr.
Black was in there during the latter part of Mr. Frank’s statement. Chief
Lanford asked Mr. Frank if he changed clothes. He showed part of his
shirt and opened his trousers. He showed his clothing to Chief Lanford
at the end of the statement. I wrote the statement out in longhand the
same day. I don’t remember exactly when.

ALBERT McKNIGHT, sworn for the State.
My wife is Minola McKnight. She cooks for Mrs. Selig. Between 1
and 2 o’clock on Memorial Day I was at the home of Mr. Frank to see my
wife. He came in close to 1:30. He did not eat any dinner. He came in,
went to the sideboard of the dining room, stayed there a few minutes and
then he goes out and catches a car. Stayed there about 5 or 10 minutes.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
Mrs. Selig and Mrs. Frank were present when Mr. Frank came in. I
was in the cook room. There is a swinging door between the dining room
and the cook room. The dining room door was open. The door swings
back and forth, but they don’t keep it shut. You can see from the kitchen
into the dining room. You can look in the mirror in the corner and see
all over the dining room. I looked in the mirror in the corner and saw
him. You can look in that mirror and see in the sitting room and in the
dining room. I have no idea how big the kitchen or dining room is. I
was never in the dining room in my life. I was sitting at the back door
in the kitchen, at the right side of the back door, up against the wall.
Minola went into the dining room, and stayed a minute or two, no more
than two minutes. She came back into the kitchen. I don’t know
whether the other folks ate dinner or not, I did not see ‘Mr. Selig. I came
to the house from my house in the rear of 318 Pulliam Street. After com-

ing to the sideboard Mr. Frank went into the sitting room where Mr.
Selig was. I didn’t see Mr. Selig, but heard him talking. I told about
Mr. Frank not eating after I came back from Birmingham, I told it to
Mr. Craven of the Beck & Gregg Company. It was before Minola went
down to the jail. Mr. Starnes, Mr. Campbell, Mr. Morse, Mr. Martin and
Mr. Dorsey all talked to me. I didn’t go down to see Minola at the sta-
tion house. I didn’t see Mrs. Frank or Mrs. Selig that Saturday through
the mirror. I didn’t keep my eye on the mirror all the time. I couldn’t
tell who was in the dining room without looking in the mirror. Mr.
Frank got there not later than 1:30. Mr. Frank came on back to Pulliam
Street and caught the Georgia Avenue car at the corner of Georgia Ave-
nut and Pulliam Street. I am certain that he caught the Georgia Avenue
car at Pulliam Street and Georgia Avenue.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
The Selig residence is on East Georgia Avenue between Pulliam and
Washington Streets. I don’t know exactly the nearest place for Mr.
Frank to have gotton on the car, Washington Street or Pulliam Street.
I suppose Pulliam Street is nearer to town than Washington. I cer-
tainly saw Mr. Frank that day, from the kitchen where I was sitting.

MISS HELEN FERGUSON, sworn for the State.
My name is Helen Ferguson, I worked at the National Pencil Com-
pany on Friday the 25th. I saw Mr. Frank Friday, April 25th, about 7
o’clock in the evening and asked for Mary Phagan’s money. Mr. Frank
said “I can’t let you have it,” and before he said anything else I turned
around and walked out. I had gotten Mary’s money before, but I didn’t
get it from Mr. Frank.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
When I got Mary’s money before I went up there and called my num-
ber and called her number, and I got mine and hers. I didn’t ask the man
that was paying off this time to let me have it. I don’t remember whether
Mr. Schiff was in the office or not when I asked Mr. Frank for Mary’s
money. Some of the office force were there, but I can’t recall their name.
I worked in the metal department about two years. I never saw little
Mary Phagan in Mr. Frank’s office. I don’t think Mr. Frank knew my
name, he knew my face. It has been some time since I asked for Mary’s
pay by number. I do not believe that I ever saw Mr. Frank speak to
Mary Phagan.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I don’t know who paid off on Friday, April 25th.

R. L. WAGGONER, sworn for the State.
I am a city detective. On Tuesday, April 29th, from ten thirty until
a little after 11 in the morning I was in front of the pencil factory on the
other side of the street. I would continually see Mr. Frank walk to the
window and look down and twist his hands when he would come to the
window looking down on the sidewalk. He did this about 12 times when
I was there in about 30 minutes. I was in the automobile with Mr. Frank
and Mr. Black and his leg was shaking. He was under arrest at the time.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I don’t know what he was doing in the office. I saw some other peo-
ple up there that I didn’t recognize. I was sent to the pencil factory to
notice Mr. Frank and the pencil factory. I thought Mr. Frank would be
arrested.

J. L. BEAVERS, sworn for the State.
I am Chief of Police of the City of Atlanta. I was at the pencil fac-
tory on Tuesday, April 29th, and saw what I took to be a splotch of blood
on the floor right near this little dressing room on office floor, seemed to
be as big as a quarter in the center and scattered out in the direction of
this room near the door. There was one spot and some others scattered
around that.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
It may have been Monday that I was at the pencil factory. I don’t
know whether it was blood or not. It looked like blood.

R. M. LASSITER, sworn for the State.
I am a city policeman. On Sunday morning, April 27th, I found a
parasol in the bottom of the elevator shaft. It was lying about the cen-
ter of the shaft. I also found a ball of rope twine, small wrapping twine,
and also something that looked like a person’s stool.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I noticed evidence of dragging from the elevator in the basement.
As I passed the rear door at 12 o’clock, the door was closed. The um-
brella was not crushed. I found it between 6 and 7 o’clock in the morn-
ing. The elevator comes down there and hits the ground plump at the
bottom of the basement.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I don’t know whether the elevator shaft has a cement bottom or not.
There is a whole lot of trash at the bottom.

L. 0. GRICE, sworn for the State.
My name is L. 0. Grice. I was at the National Pencil Company’s
place on Sunday morning, April 27th. A small sized man, defendant
here, attracted my attention, on account of his nervousness.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I was called as a witness in this case one week after it started. I
told some of my friends about Mr. Frank’s nervousness and’they advised
me to go to Dorsey. I never knew or saw Mr. Frank before. When we
were told of how the little child was murdered, it excited me some.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

I don’t recall trembling any. I am pretty sure I didn’t because my
friend that I went to Opelika with that morning suggested that I was
trembling when I went through there, and I told him I was not. He was
not there when I went through the factory and when I told him about it
he said I bet you were scared. He walked around this way a little bit.
He was kind of shaking like that (illustrating). His fingers were tremb-
ling.

MELL STANFORD, sworn for the State (re-called).

The door in the rear part of the factory on the second floor on Fri-
day evening was barred. There is no way in the rear of the building to
come down to the second floor when the door is barred except the fire es-
cape, and you have to be on office floor to undo the door. The area around
the elevator shaft on the first floor near the hole and radiator was cleaned
up after the murder. It was the early part of the week after the murder.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I didn’t clean it myself. I saw it cleaned. I passed by as it was be-
ing cleaned up.

W. H. GREESLING, sworn for the State.

I am a funeral director and embalmer. I moved the body of Mary
Phagan at 10 minutes to four o’clock, April 27th, in the morning. The
cord (Exhibit C, State) was around the neck. The knot was on the right
side of the neck and was lying kind of looped around the head. It wasn’t
very tight at the time I moved it. There was an impress of an eighth of
an inch on the neck. The rag (Exhibit D, State) was around her hair
and over her face. The tongue an inch and a quarter out of her mouth
sticking out. The body was rigid; looking like it had been dead for some
time. My opinion is that she had been dead ten or fifteen hours, or prob-
ably longer. The blood was very much congested. The blood had set-
tled in her face because she was lying on her face. Blood begins to settle

at death or a very few minutes after death. After Dr. Hurt examined
her nails, I did. I found some dirt and dust under the nails. I discov-
ered some urine or her underclothes and there were some dry blood
splotches there. The right leg of the drawers was split with a knife or
torn right up the seam. Her right eye was very dark; looked like it was
hit before death because it was very much swollen; if it had been hit af-
ter death there wouldn’t have been any swelling. I found a wound 21/4
inches on the back of the head. It was made before death because it bled
a great deal. The hair was matted with blood and very dry. If it had
been made after death, there would have been no blood there. There is
no circulation after death. The skull wasn’t crushed; the scalp was
broken. The indication was that it was made before death. There was a
scar over each eye about the size of a dime. I didn’t notice any scratches
on her nose. I can’t state whether the defendant ever looked at the body
or not. There was some discharge on her underclothes which was very
dry and if she had been dead a short time, it would have been wet yet.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I judge the length of time the corpse had been dead by the rigor mor-
tis. This is very indefinite at times. It begins before death. If she died
of strangulation, I would expect rigor mortis to begin within an hour. I
have never had any experience about as a case of strangulation so as to
determine when rigor mortis began and when it broke. There is no cer-
tainty about how long a corpse is dead. All the blood was dry when I ex-
amined the body. Mr. Rogers and Mr. Black came with Mr. Frank and
asked me to take him back to where the girl was. I took them back there,
pulled a light, pulled the sheet back, and moved the revolving table and
walked out between them. Mr. Frank was near the right-hand going in.
Mr. Black was at the left. I took a half gallon of blood from the little
girl’s body, enough to clear up the face and body. I injected one gallon
of the formula into the corpse. Formaldehyde is a constituent part of
* the embalming fluid used. I prepared the little girl properly for burial.
There was no mutilation at all on the body. I judged she died of stran-
gulation because the rope was tight enough to choke her to death and her
tongue being an inch and a quarter out of the mouth, showed she died
from strangulation.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

I don’t think the little girl lost much blood.

DR. CLAUDE SMITH, sworn for the State.

I am physician and City Bacteriologist and Chemist. These chips
(Exhibit E, State) appear to be the specimen which the detectives.
brought to my office and which I examined. They had considerable dirt

on them and some coloring stain. On one of them I found some blood
corpuscles. I do not know whether it was human blood. This shirt (Ex-
hibit E for State) appears to be the same shirt brought to my office by
detectives which I examined. I examined spots and it showed blood
stain. I got no odor from the arm pits that it had been worn. The blood
I noticed was smeared a little on the inside in places. It didn’t extend
out on the outside. The blood on shirt was somewhat on the inside of the
garment high up about the waist line which to my mind could not have
been produced by turning up the tail.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I found grit and stain on all of the chips. I couldn’t tell the one that
I found blood on. I did the work in the ordinary way. The whole sur-
face of the chips was coated with dirt. I couldn’t tell whether the blood
stain was fresh or old. I have kept blood corpuscles in the laboratory for
several years. I found probably three or four or five blood corpuscles in
a field. I don’t know how much blood was there. A drop or half drop
would have caused it, or even less than that. Rigor mortis begins very
soon after death. Sometimes starts quicker, but usually starts very
soon. I could not say when rigor mortis would end.

DR. J. W. HURT, sworn for the state.

I am County Physician. I saw the body of Mary Phagan on Sunday
morning, the 27th of April. She had a scalp wound on the left side of her
head about 21/2 inches long, about 4 inches from the top to the left ear
through the scalp to the skull. She had a black contused eye. A number
of small minor scratches on the face. The tongue was protruding about
a half an inch through the teeth. There was a wound on the left knee,
about 2 inches below the knee. There were some superficial scratches on
the left and right elbow. There was a cord around the neck and this cord
was imbedded into the skin and in my opinion she died from strangula-
tion. This cord (Exhibit “C” for State) looks like the cord that was
around her neck. There was swelling on the neck. In my opinion the
cord was put on before death. The wound on the back of the head seemed
to have been made with a blunt-edged instrument and the blow from
down upward. The scalp wound was made before death. It was calcu-
lated to produce unconsciousness. The black eye appeared to have been
made by some soft instrument in that the skin was not broken. I think
the scratches on the face were made after death. I examined the hymen.
It was not intact. There was blood on the drawers. I discovered no vio-
lence to the parts. There was blood on the parts. I didn’t know whether
it was fresh blood or menstrual blood. The vagina was a little larger
than the normal size of a girl of that age. It is my opinion that this en-
largement of the vagina could have been produced by penetration imme-
diately preceding death. She had a normal virgin uterus. She was not

pregnant. I made no examination of the blood vessels of the uterus or
womb.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

The body looked as if it had been dragged through dirt and cinders.
It is my impression that she was dragged face forward. If she had fallen
on the corner of the floor that was sharp edged, or the corner of an eleva-
tor shaft with an edge, it might have produced the wound. I do not know
of the kind of instrument that produced the wound. There was no contu-
sion on the inside of the skull, but the skull wasn’t fractured. Neither
the brain nor the meningis were affected. There was a little contusion on
the inner lining of the skull. There was no bleeding on the brain tissues.
I don’t know whether it would produce unconsciousness or not. I was
never asked before to examine the inside of anybody’s skull to determine
the fact whether death or unconsciousness resulted from the wound. It
is my impression that this lick did produce unconsciousness, but I won’t
swear it, I don’t know. The hemorrhage which we discovered in the skull
caused no pressure on the brain. That was no sign that unconsciousness
resulted. When a person is strangled to death the lungs ought to show
congestion. I never examined this girl’s lungs. When I saw the body on
April 27th I gave it as my opinion that she had been dead from 16 to 20
hours at 9 o’clock Sunday morning. Rigor mortis was complete. It is a
very variable thing. I couldn’t tell whether the blood on her under-
clothes was menstrual blood or not. The hymen was not intact, and I was
not able to say when this hymen was ruptured. I saw no indication of an
injury to the hymen. The appearance of the blood on the parts was char-
acteristic of a menstrual flow. There was no laceration on the vagina,
and no mutilation on this girl’s body except those wounds on the face,
head and legs. The size of the vagina is no indication of anything except
the anatomy and the natural build of the person. It is no indication of
rape. I found no outward signs of rape. I have formed no opinion
whether this little girl was raped or had ever had intercourse with any-
body. There was no external marks of violence. I told Col. Rosser at
the Coroner’s inquest that this little girl had her monthly period on, but
I got that from somebody else. I did not conclude that from my exami-
nation. The monthly period causes some inflammation and congestion
in the blood vessels of the ovaries and uterus. The vagina itself might
have some different appearance. I was present when Dr. Harris made
the post mortem examination of this girl. Cabbage is digested better by
some people than others. It depends on the individual very much. It is
considered hard to digest. It depends largely on mastication. You can
chew up so thoroughly that it would go down into the stomach almost a
liquid, but it would not be digested until the stomach took up that chewed
mass. It would take a much longer time to digest and assimilate unmas-
ticated cabbage than if it had been thoroughly chewed. It takes about
3 1/2 hours to digest cabbage properly masticated, and it would take lon-

ger if the cabbage had been taken into the stomach actually or practi-
cally whole. Digestion continues partially in unconsciousness. It is a
guess to say whether the girl was conscious or not. I would not under-
take to give an opinion how long she remained unconscious. I would not
undertake to give an opinion and don’t know of any way of telling ten
days after death how long a distended condition of the vagina existed
before death.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I could not detect the hymen from a digital and occular examination.
Ordinary normal menses would produce a dilation’of the blood vessels in
the womb. The blood, flowing over the hymen I think would produce a
little inflammation at the hymen, but if the hymen was broken down, I
don’t know that menstruation would have any affect upon the hymen. If
the menstruation was about off, then I would say that any undue excite-
ment might produce the flow again, or increase the flow that was already
there. The contents of this bottle (Exhibit “G,” State) didn’t stay in
the stomach very long.
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.
I wouldn’t undertake to say how long that cabbage (Exhibit “G,”
State) had been in the child’s stomach. A blow on the back of the head
might blacken one or both eyes.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I think excitement could produce flow from the uterus. I’don’t think
it would cause any discoloration of the walls of the vagina, e~ept from
the blood.
DR. H. F. HARRIS, sworn for the State.
I am a practicing physician. I made an examination of the body of
Mary Phagan on May 5th. On removing the skull I found there was no
actual break of the skull, but a little hemorrhage under the skull, corre-
sponding to point where blow had been deliver-ed, which shows that the
blow was hard enough to have made the person unconscious. This wound
on the head was not sufficient to have caused death. I think beyond any
question she came to her death from strangulation from this cord being
wound around her neck. The bruise around the eye was caused by a soft
instrument, because it didn’t show the degree of contusion that would
have been produced by a hard instruiment. The outside cuticle of the
skin wasn’t broken. The injury to the eye and scalp were caused before
death. I examined the contents of the stomach, finding 160 cubic centi-
meters of cabbage and biscuit, or wheaten bread. It had progressed very
slightly towards digestion. It is impossible for one to say absolutely how
long this cabbage had been in the stomach, but I feel confident that she
was either killed or received the blow on the back of the head within a
half hour after she finished her meal. I have some cabbage here from two

normal persons. Here was same meal taken of cabbage and wheaten
bread by two men of normal stomach, and contents taken out within an
hour. We found there was very little cabbage left. I made an examina-
tion of the privates of Mary Phagan. I found no spermatozoa. On the
walls of the vagina there was evidences of violence of some kind. The
epitheleum was pulled loose, completely detached in places, blood vessels
were dilated immediately beneath the surface and a great deal of hemor-
rhage in the surrounding tissues. The dilation of the blood vessels indi-
cated to me that the injury had been made in the vagina some little time
before death. Perhaps ten to fifteen minutes. It had occurred before
death by reason of the fact that these blood vessels were dilated. Inflam-
mation had set in and it takes an appreciable length of time for the pro-
cess of inflammatory change to begin. There was evidence of violence in
the neighborhood of the hymen. Rigor mortis varies so much that it is
not accurate to state how long after death it sets in. It may begin in a
few minutes and may be delayed for hours. I could not state from the
examination how long Mary Phagan was dying. It is my opinion that
she lived from a half to three-quarters of an hour after she ate her meal.
The evidence of violence in the vagina had evidently been done just be-
fore death. The fact that the child was strangled to death was indicated
by the lividity, the blueness of the parts, the congestion of the tongue
and mouth and the blueness of the hands and fingernails. The lungs had
the peculiar appearance which is always produced after embalming when
formaldehyde is used. I am of the opinion that the wound on the back of
the head could not have been produced by this stick (Exhibit 48 of De-
fendant). I made a microscopic examination of the vagina and uterus.
Natural menses would cause an enlargement of the uterus, but not of the
vagina. In my opinion the menses could not have caused any dilation of
the blood vessels and discoloration of the walls. From my own experi-
ments I find that the behavior of the stomach after taking a small meal
of cabbage and bread is practically the same as taking some biscuit and
water alone. I examined Mary Phagan’s stomach. It was normal in size,
normal in position, and normal in every particular. I made a microscopic
examination of the contents in Mary Phagan’s case. It showed plainly
that it had not begun to dissolve, or only to a very slight degree, and in-
dicated that the process of digestion had not gone on to any extent at the
time that this girl was rendered unconscious. I found that the starch she
had eaten had undergone practically no alteration. The contents taken
from the little girl’s stomach was examined chemically and the result
showed that there were only slight traces of the first action of the diges-
tive juices on the starch. It was plainly evident that none of the mate-
rial had gone into the small intestines. As soon as food is put in the
stomach the beginning of the secretion of the hydrochloric acid is found.
It is from the quantity of this acid that the stomach secretes that doctors
judge the state and degree of digestion. In this case the acid had not
been secreted in such an excess that any of it had become what we call
free. In this case the amount of acid in this girl’s stomach was combined

and was 32 degrees. Ordinarily in a normal stomach at the end of an
hour it runs from 50 to 70 or 80. I found none of the pancreatic juices in
the stomach which are usually found, about an hour after digestion starts.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I don’t remember when Mr. Dorsey first talked to me about making
this autopsy. As long as the heart was beating you could have put a piece
of rope around the neck of this little girl and produced the same results
as I found. I took about five or six ounces altogether out of the stomach.
It was all used up in making my experiments. I know of no experiments
made as to the effect of gastric juices where the patient is dead. The
juices of the body after death gradually evaporate. The chemical analy-
sis of each cabbage varies, not only in the plant but from the way it is
cooked. It is a very vague matter as to what influences may retard diges-
tion. Every individual is almost a law unto himself. To a certain extent
different vegetables affect different stomachs different ways, but the av-
erage normal stomach digests anything that is eaten within reason. Some
authorities claim that exercise will retard digestion. I don’t know that
mental activity would have very much effect in retarding the digestion.
It is the generally accepted opinion that food begins to pass out of the
stomach through the pyloris in about a half an hour. A great many things
pass out of the stomach that are not digested. The juices of the stomach
make no change in them. The stomach does not emulsify a solid. I never
knew a normal man who could digest a solid. The science of diges-
tion is rather a modern thing. I did not call in any chemist in making
this examination. I said it was impossible for any one to say absolutely
how long the cabbage had been in the stomach of Mary Phagan before
she met her death, not within a minute or five minutes, but I say it was
somewhere between one-half an hour and three-quarters. I am certain of
that. Of course, if digestion had been delayed this time element would
change. The violence to the private parts might have been produced by
the finger or by other means, but I found evidence of violence. It takes a
rather considerable knock to tear epithelium off to the extent that bleed-
ing would occur. I found the epithelium completely detached in places
and in other places it was not detached. A digital examination means
putting the finger in. The swelling and dilation of the blood vessels
could be seen only with a microscope. It is impossible to say how much
they were swollen. A scalp wound is very prone to bleed.

C. B. DALTON, sworn for the State.
I know Leo M. Frank, Daisy Hopkins, and Jim Conley. I have vis-
ited the National Pencil Company three, four or five times. I have been
in the office of Leo M. Frank two or three times. I have been down in the
basement. I don’t know whether Mr. Frank knew I was in the basement
or not, but he knew I was there. I saw Conley there and the night watch-
man, and he was not Conley. There would be some ladies in Mr. Frank’s

office. Sometimes there would be two, and sometimes one. May be they
didn’t work in the mornings and they would be there in the evenings.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I don’t recollect the first time I was in Mr. Frank’s office. It was last
fall. I have been down there one time this year but Mr. Frank wasn’t
there. It was Saturday evening. I went in there with Miss Daisy Hopkins.
I saw some parties in the office but I don’t know them. They were ladies.
Sometimes there would be two and sometimes more. I don’t know
whether it was the stenographer or not. I don’t recollect the next time I
saw him in his office. I never saw any gentlemen but Mr. Frank in there.
Every time I was in Mr. Frank’s office was before Christmas. Miss Daisy
Hopkins introduced me to him. I saw Conley there one time this year
and several times on Saturday evenings. Mr. Frank wasn’t there the last
time. Conley was sitting there at the front door. When I went down the
ladder Miss Daisy went with me. We went back by the trash pile in the
basement. I saw an old cot and a stretcher. I have been in Atlanta for
ten years. I have never been away over a week. I saw Mr. Frank about
two o’clock in the afternoon. There was no curtains drawn in the office.
It was very light in there. I went in the first office, near the stairway.
The night watchman I spoke of was a negro. I saw him about the first of
January. I saw a negro night watchman there between September and
December. I lived in Walton County for twenty years. I came right
here from Walton County. I was absent from Walton County once for
two or three years and lived in Lawrenceville. I have walked home from
the factory with Miss Laura Atkins and Miss Smith.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I gave Jim Conley a half dozen or more quarters. I saw Mr. Frank in
his office in the day time. Mr. Frank had Coca-Cola, lemon and lime and
beer in the office. I never saw the ladies in his office doing any writing.

RECALLED FOR CROSS EXAMINATION.
Andrew Dalton is my brother-in-law. John Dalton is a first cousin.
I am the Dalton that went to the chaingang for stealing in Walton County
in 1894. We all pleaded guilty. The others paid out. I don’t know how
long I served. I stole a shop hammer. That was in case No. L. There
were three cases and the sentences were concurrent. One of the other
Daltons stole a plow and I don’t know what the other one stole. I was
with them. In 1899 at the February term of Walton Superior Court I
was indicted for helping steal bale of cotton. In Gwinnett County I was
prosecuted for stealing corn, but I came clear.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
It has been 18 or 20 years since I have been in trouble. I was drunk
with the two Dalton boys when we got into that hammer and plow stock
scrape.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I don’t know whether I was indicted in 1906 in Walton County for
selling liquor. I know Dan Hillman and I know Bob Harris. I don’t
know whether I was indicted for selling liquor to them or not.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

Miss Daisy Hopkins knows Mr. Frank. I have seen her talking to
him and she told me about it.

S. L. ROSSER, sworn for the State.
I am a city policeman. On Monday, April 28th, I went out to see
Mrs. White. On May 6th or 7th was the first time I knew Mrs, White
claimed to have seen a negro at’the factory on April 26th. These are the
same chips we had at factory. The club was not on floor by elevator the
day I searched the place. I had a flash light and searched for everything.
I would have seen it had it been there.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I made no inquiry of her about this before. She volunteered the in-
formation when I came out the second time.

JAMES CONLEY, sworn for the State.
I had a little conversation with Mr. Frank on Friday, the 25th of
April. He wanted me to come to the pencil factory that Friday morning
that he had some work on the third floor he wanted me to do. All right,
I will talk louder. Friday evening about taree o’clock Mr. Frank come
to the fourth floor where I was working and said he wanted me to come to
the pencil factory on Saturday morning at 8:30; that he had some work
for me to do on the second floor. I have been working for the pencil com-
pany for a little over two years. Yes, I had gone back there that way for
Mr. Frank before, when he asked me to come back. I got to the pencil
factory about 8:30 on April 26th. Mr. Frank and me got to the door at
the same time. Mr. Frank walked on the inside and I walked behind him
and he says to me, “Good morning,” and I says, “Good morning, Mr.
Frank.” He says, “You are a little early this morning,” and I says,” No,
sir, I am not early.” He says, “Well, you are a little early to do what I
wanted you to do for me, I want you to watch for me like you have been
doing the rest of the Saturdays.” I always stayed on the first floor like
I stayed the 26th of April and watched for Mr. Frank, while he and a
young lady would be upon the second floor chatting, I don’t know what
they were doing. He only told me they wanted to chat. When young
ladies would come there, I would sit down at the first floor and watch the
door for him. I couldn’t exactly tell how many times I have watched the
door for him previous to April 26th, it has been several times that I
watched for him. I don’t know who would be there when I watched for
him, but there would be another young man, another young lady during
the time I was at the door. A lady for him and one for Mr. Frank. Mr.
Frank was alone there once, that was Thanksgiving day. I watched for
him. Yes, a woman came there Thanksgiving day, she was a tall, heavy
built lady. I stayed down there and watched the door just as he told me
the last time, April 26th. He told me when the lady came he would stomp
and let me know that was the one and for me to lock the door. Well, af-
ter the lady came and he stomped for me, I went and locked the door as
he said. He told me when he got through with the lady he would whistle
and for me then to go and unlock the door. That was last Thanksgiving
day, 1912. On April 26th, me and Mr. Frank met at the door. He says,
“What I want you to do is to watch for me to-day as you did other Satur-
days,” and I says, “All right.” I said,”Mr. Frank, I want to go to the
Capital City Laundry to see my mother,” and he said, “By the time you
go to the laundry and come back to Trinity Avenue, stop at the corner of
Nelson and Forsyth Streets until I go to Montags.” I don’t know exactly
what time I got to the corner of Nelson and Forsyth Streets, but I came
there sometime between 10 and 10:30. I saw Mr. Frank as he passed by
me, I was standing on the corner, he was coming up Forsyth Street to-
ward Nelson Street. He was going to Montag’s factory. While I was
there on the corner he said, “Ha, ha, you are here, is yer.” And I says,
“Yes, sir, I am right here, Mr. Frank.” He says, “Well, wait until I go
to Mr. Sig’s, I won’t be very long, I’ll be right back.” I says, “All right,
Mr. Frank, I’ll be right here.” I don’t know how long he stayed at Mon-
tag’s. He didn’t say anything when he came back from Montag’s, but
told me to come on. Mr. Frank came out Nelson Street and down For-
syth Street toward the pencil factory and I followed right behind. As
we passed up there the grocery store, Albertson Brothers, a young man
was up there with a paper sack getting some stuff out of a box on the
sidewalk, and he had his little baby standing by the side of him, and just
as Mr. Frank passed by him, I was a little behind Mr. Frank, and Mr.
Frank said something to me, and by him looking back at me and saying
something to me, he hit up against the man’s baby, and the man turned
around and looked to see who it was, and he looked directly in my face,
but I never did catch the idea what Mr. Frank said. Mr. Frank stopped
at Curtis’ Drug Store, corner Mitchell and Forsyth Streets, went into the
soda fountain. He came out and went straight on to the factory, me right
behind him. When we got to the factory we both went on the inside, and
Mr. Frank stopped me at the door and when he stopped me at the door he
put his hand on the door and turned the door and says: “You see, you
turn the knob just like this and there can’t nobody come in from the out-
side,” and I says, “All right,” and I walked back to a little box back
there by the trash barrel. He told me to push the box up against the trash
barrel and sit on it, and he says. “Now, there will be a young lady up
here after awhile, and me and her are going to chat a little,” and he says,
“Now, when the lady comes, I will stomp like I did before,” and he says,
“That will be the lady, and you go and shut the door,” and I says, “All
right, sir.” And he says, “Now, when I whistle I will be through, so you
can go and unlock the door and you come upstairs to my office then like
you were going to borrow some money for me and that will give the
young lady time to get out.” I says, “All right, I will do just as you
say,” and I did as he said. Mr. Frank hit me a little blow on my chest
and says, “Now, whatever you do, don’t let Mr. Darley see you.” I says,
“All right, I won’t let him see me.” Then Mr. Frank went upstairs and
he said, “Remember to keep your eyes open,” and I says, “All right, I
will, Mr. Frank.” And I sat there on the box and that was the last I seen
of Mr. Frank until up in the day sometime. The first person I saw that
morning after I got in there was Mr. Darley, he went upstairs. The next
person was Miss Mattie Smith, she went on upstairs, then I saw her come
down from upstairs. Miss Mattie walked to the door and stopped, and
Mr. Darley comes on down to the door where Miss Mattie was, and he
says,” Don’t you worry, I will see that you get that next Saturday. ” And
Miss Mattie came on out and went up Alabama Street and Mr. Darley
went back upstairs. Seemed like Miss Mattie was crying, she was wiping
her eyes when she was standing down there. This was before I went to
Nelson and Forsyth Streets. After we got back from Montag Brothers,
the first person I saw come along was a lady that worked on the fourth
floor, I don’t know her name. She went on up the steps. The next per-
son that came along was the negro drayman, he went on upstairs. He
was a peg-legged fellow, real dark. The next I saw this negro and Mr.
Holloway coming back down the steps. Mr. Holloway was putting on
his glasses and had a bill in his hands, and he went out towards the wagon
on the sidewalk, then Mr. Holloway came back up the steps, then after
Mr. Darley came down and left, Mr. Holloway came down and left. Then
this lady that worked on the fourth floor came down and left. The next
person I saw coming there was Mr. Quinn. He went upstairs, stayed
a little while and then came down. The next person that I saw was
Miss Mary Perkins, that’s what I call her, this lady that is dead, I
don’t know her name. After she went upstairs I heard her footsteps go-
ing towards the office and after she went in the office, I heard two people
walking out of the office and going like they were coming down the steps,
but they didn’t come down the steps, they went back towards the metal
department. After they went back there, I heard the lady scream, then
I didn’t hear no more, and the next person I saw coming in there was
Miss Monteen Stover. She had on a pair of tennis shoes and a rain coat.
She stayed there a pretty good while, it wasn’t so very long either. She
came back down the steps and left. After she came back down the steps
and left, I heard somebody from the metal department come running back
there upstairs, on their tiptoes, then I heard somebody tiptoeing back
towards the metal department. After that I kind of dozed off and went
to sleep. Next thing I knew Mr. Frank was up over my head stamping
and then I went and locked the door, and sat on the box a little while, and
the next thing I heard was Mr. Frank whistling. I don’t know how many
minutes it was after that I heard him whistle. When I heard him whist-
ling I went and unlocked the door just like he said, and went on up the
steps. Mr. Frank was standing up there at the top of the steps and shiv-
ering and trembling and rubbing his hands like this. He had a little rope
in his hands–a long wide piece of cord. His eyes were large and they
looked right funny. He looked funny out of his eyes. His face was red.
Yes, he had a cord in his hands just like this here cord. After I got up to
the top of the steps, he asked me,” Did you see that little girl who passed
here just a while ago?” and I told him I saw one come along there and
she come back again, and then I saw another one come along there and
she hasn’t come back down, and he says, “Well, that one you say didn’t
come back down, she came into my office awhile ago and wanted to know
something about her work in my office and I went back there to see if the
little girl’s work had come, and I wanted to be with the little girl, and
she refused me, and I struck her and I guess I struck her too hard and she
fell and hit her head against something, and I don’t know how bad she
got hurt. Of course you know I ain’t built like other men. The reason he
said that was, I had seen him in a position I haven’t seen any other man
that has got children. I have seen him in the office two or three times be-
fore Thanksgiving and a lady was in his office, and she was sitting down
in a chair (and she had her clothes up to here, and he was down on his
knees, and she had her hands on Mr. Frank. I have seen him another
time there in the packing room with a young lady lying on the table, she
was on the edge of the table when I saw her). He asked me if I wouldn’t
go back there and bring her up so that he could put her somewhere, and
he said to hurry, that there would be money in it for me. When I came
back there, I found the lady lying flat of her back with a rope around her
neck. The cloth was also tied around her neck and part of it was under
her head like to catch blood. I noticed the clock after I went back there
and found the lady was dead and came back and told him. The clock
was four minutes to one. She was dead when I went back there and I
came back and told Mr. Frank the girl was dead and he said “Sh-Sh!”
He told me to go back there by the cotton box, get a piece of cloth, put it
around her and bring her up. I didn’t hear what Mr. Frank said, and I
came on up there to hear what he said. He was standing on the top of
the steps, like he was going down the steps, and while I was back in the
metal department I didn’t understand what he said, and I came on back
there to understand what he did say, and he said to go and get a piece of
cloth to put around her, and I went and looked around the cotton box and
got a piece of cloth and went back there. The girl was lying flat on her
back and her hands were out this way. I put both of her hands down
easily, and rolled her up in the cloth and taken the cloth and tied her up,
and started to pick up her, and I looked back a little distance and saw her
hat and a piece of ribbon laying down and her slippers and I taken them
and put them all in the cloth and I ran my right arm through the cloth
and tried to bring it up on my shoulder. The cloth was tied just like a
person that was going to give out clothes on Mon~day, they get the clothes
and put them on- the inside of a sheet and take each corner and tie the
four corners together, and I run my right arm through the cloth after I
tied it that way and went to put it on my shoulder, and I found I couldn’t
get it on my shoulder, it was heavy and I carried it on my arm the best I
could, and when I got away from the little dressing room that was in the
metal department, I let her fall, and I was scared and I kind of jumped,
and I said, ‘Mr. Frank,, you will have to help me with this girl, she is
heavy,” and he come and caught her by the feet and I laid hold of her by
the shoulders, and when we got her that way I was backing and Mr. Frank
had her by the feet, and Mr. Frank kind of put her on me, he was nervous
and trembling, and after we got up a piece from where we got her at, he
let her feet drop and then he picked her up and we went on to the eleva-
tor, and he pulled down on one of the cords and the elevator wouldn’t go,
and he said, Wait, let me go in the office and get the key,” and he went
in the office and got the key and come back and unlocked the switchboard
and the elevator went down to the basement, and we carried her out and
I opened the cloth and rolled her out there on the floor, and Mr. Frank
turned around and went on up the ladder, and I noticed her hat and slip-
per and piece of ribbon and I said, “Mr. Frank, what am I going to do
with these things?” and he said, “Just leave them right there,” and I
taken the things and pitches them over in front of the boiler, and after
Mr. Frank had left I goes on over to the elevator and he said, “Come on
up and I will catch you on the first, floor,” and I got on the elevator and
started it to the first floor, and Mr. Frank was running up there. He
didn’t give me time to stop the elevator, he was so nervous and trembly,
and before the elevator got to the top of the first floor Mr. Frank made
the first, step onto the elevator and by the elevator being a little down
like that, he stepped down on it and hit me quite a blow right over about
my chest and that jammed me up against the elevator and when we got
near the second floor he tried to step off before it got to the floor and his
foot caught on the second floor as he was stepping off and that made him
stumble and he fell back sort of against me, and he goes on and takes the
keys back to his office and leaves the box unlocked. I followed him into
his private office and I sat down and he commenced to rubbing his hands
and began to rub back his hair and after awhile he got up and said,
“Jim,” and I didn’t say nothing, and all at once he happened to look out
of the door and there was somebody coming, and he said, ” My God, here
is Emma Clarke and Corinthia Hall,” and he said “Come over here Jim,
I have got to put you in this wardrobe, and he put me in this wardrobe,
and I stayed there a good while and they come in there and I heard them
go out, and Mr. Frank come there and said, “You are in a tight place,”
and I said “Yes,” and he said “You done very well.” So after they went
out and he had stepped in the hall and had come back he let me out of the
wardrobe, and he said “You sit down,” and I went and sat down, and
Mr. Frank sat down. But the chair he had was too little for him or too
big for him or it wasn’t far enough back or something. He reached on
the table to get a box of cigarettes and a box of matches, and he takes a
cigarette and a match and hands me the box of cigarettes and I lit one and
went to smoking and I handed him back the box of cigarettes, and he put
it back in his pocket and then he took them out again and said, “You can
have these,” and I put them in my pocket, and then he said, “Can you
write ?” and I said, “Yes, sir, a little bit,” and he taken his pencil to fix
up some notes. I was willing to do anything to help Mr. Frank because
he was a white man and my superintendent, and he sat down and I sat
down at the table and Mr. Frank dictated the notes to me. Whatever it
was it didn’t seem to suit him, and he told me to turn over and write
again, and I turned the paper and wrote again, and when I done that he
told me to turn over again and I turned over again and wrote on the next
page there, and he looked at that and kind of liked it and he said that was
all right. Then he reached over and got another piece of paper, a green
piece, and told me what to write. He took it and laid it on his desk and
looked at me smiling and rubbing his hands, and then he pulled out a
nice little roll of greenbacks, and he said, “Here is $200,” and I taken
the money and looked at it a little bit and I said, “Mr. Frank, don’t you
pay another dollar for that watchman, because I will pay him myself,”
and he said, “All right, I don’t see what you want to buy a watch for
either, that big fat wife of mine wanted me to buy an automobile and I
wouldn’t do it.” And after awhile Mr. Frank looked at me and said,
“You go down there in the basement and you take a lot of trash and burn
that package that’s in front of the furnace,” and I told him all right. But
I was afraid to go down there by myself, and Mr. Frank wouldn’t go down
there with me. He said, “There’s no need of my going down there,” and
I said, “Mr. Frank, you are a white man and you done it, and I am not
going down there and burn that myself.” He looked at me then kind of
frightened and he said “Let me see that money” and he took the money
back and put it back in his pocket, and I said, “Is this the way you do
things?” and he said, “You keep your mouth shut, that is all right.”
And Mr. Frank turned around in his chair and looked at the money and
he looked back at me and folded his hands and looked up and said, “Why
should I hang? I have wealthy people in Brooklyn,” and he looked down
when he said that, and I looked up at him, and he was looking up at the
ceiling, and I said,” Mr. Frank what about me?” and he said, ” That’s all
right, don’t you worry about this thing, you just come back to work Mon-
day like you don’t know anything, and keep your mouth shut, if you get
caught I will get you out on bond and send you away,” and he said,
“Can you come back this evening and do it?” and I said “Yes, that I was
coming to get my money.” He said, “Well, I am going home to get din-
ner and you come back here in about forty minutes and I will fix the
money,” and I said, “How will I get in?” and he said, “There will be a
place for you to get in all right, but if you are not coming back let me

know, and I will take those things and put them down with the body,”
and I said, “All right, I will be back in about forty minutes.” Then I
went down over to the beer saloon across the street and I took the ciga-
rettes out of the box and there was some money in there and I took that
out and there was two paper dollar bills in there and two silver quarters
and I took a drink, and then I bought me a double header and drank it
and I looked around at another colored fellow standing there and I asked
him did he want a glass of beer and he said “No,” and I looked at the
clock and it said twenty minutes to two and the man in there asked me
was I going home, and I said, “Yes,” and I walked south on Forsyth
Street to Mitchell and Mitchell to Davis, and I said to the fellow that was
with me “I am going back to Peters Street,” and a Jew across the street
that I owed a dime to called me and asked me about it and I paid him that
dime. Then I went on over to Peters Street and stayed there awhile.
Then I went home and I taken fifteen cents out of my pocket and gave a
little girl a nickle to go and get some sausage and then I gave her a
dime to go and get some wood, and she stayed so long that when she came
back I said, “I will cook this sausage and eat it and go back to Mr.
Frank’s,” and I laid down across the bed and went to sleep, and I didn’t
get up no more until half past six o’clock that night, that’s the last I saw
of Mr. Frank that Saturday. I saw him next time on Tuesday on the
fourth floor when I was sweeping. He walked up and he said, “Now re-
member, keep your mouth shut,” and I said, “All right,” and he said,
“If you’d come back on Saturday and done what I told you to do with it
down there, there wouldn’t have been no trouble.” This conversation
took place between ten and eleven o’clock Tuesday. Mr. Frank knew I
could write a little bit, because he always gave me tablets up there at the
office so I could write down what kind of boxes we had and I would give
that to Mr. Frank down at his office and that’s the way he knew I could
write. I was arrested on Thursday, May 1st, Mr. Frank told me just
what to write on those notes there. That is the same pad he told me to
write on (State’s Exhibit A). The girl’s body was lying somewhere
along there about No. 9 on that picture (State’s Exhibit A). I dropped
her somewhere along No. 7. We got on elevator on the second floor. The
box that Mr. Frank unlocked was right around here on side of elevator.
He told me to come back in about forty minutes to do that burning. Mr.
Frank went in the office and got the key to unlock the elevator. The notes
were fixed up in Mr. Frank’s private office. I never did know what be-
came of the notes. I left home that morning about 7 or 7:30. I noticed
the clock when I went from the factory to go to Nelson and Forsyth
Streets, the clock was in a beer saloon on the corner of Mitchell Street.
It said 9 minutes after 10. I don’t know the name of the woman who was
with Mr. Frank on Thanksgiving day. I know the man’s name was Mr.
Dalton. When I saw Mr. Frank coming towards the factory Saturday
morning he had on his raincoat and his usual suit of clothes and an um-
brella. Up to Christmas I used to run the elevator, then they put me on
the fourth floor to clean up. I cleaned up twice a week on the first floor

under Mr. Holloway’s directions. The lady I saw in Mr. Frank’s office
Thanksgiving day was a tall built lady, heavy weight, she was nice look-
ing, and she had on a blue looking dress with white dots in it and a gray-
ish looking coat with kind of tails to it. The coat was open like that and
she had on white slippers and stockings. On Thanksgiving day Mr.
Frank told me to come to his office. I have never seen any cot or bed
down in the basement. I refused to write for the police the first time. I
told them I couldn’t write.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I am 27 years old. The last job I had was working for Dr. Palmer. I
worked for him a year and a half. I worked before that for Orr Station-
ery Company for three or four months. Before that I worked for S. S.
Gordon. Before that I worked for Adams Woodward and Dr. Honey-
well. Got my first job eleven years ago with Mr. S. M. Truitt. Next job
was with W. S. Coates. I can’t spell his name. I can’t read and write
good. I can’t read the newspapers good. No, sir; I don’t read the news-
paper. I never do, I have tried, I found I couldn’t and I quit. I can’t
read a paper right through. I can’t go right straight down through the
page, and that’s the reason I don’t read newspapers, I can’t get any sense
out of them. There is some little letters like” dis” and” dat” that I can
read. The other things I don’t understand. No, I can’t spell “dis” and
“dat.” Yes, I can spell “school,” and I can’t spell “collar,” I can spell
“shirts.” I can spell “shoes,” and “hat.” I spell “cat” with a “k.” I
can spell “dog,” and most simple little words like that. I don’t know
about spelling “mother.” I can spell “papa.” I spell it p-a-p-a. I can’t
spell “‘father ” or “‘jury” or “judge” or “stockings.” I never did go to
school further than the first grade. I went to school about a year. I can
spell” day,” but not” daylight,” I can spell” beer” but not” whiskey.”
I couldn’t read the name “whiskey.” No, I can’t read any letter on that
picture there (Exhibit A, State). I can’t figure except with my fingers.
I know the figures as far as eight, as far as twelve. I knows more about
counting than I do about figuring. I don’t know what year it was I went
to school. I worked for Truitt about two years, for Mr. Coates five years,
for Mr. Woodward and Mr. Honeywell about a year and a pressing club
about two years, Orr Stationery Company three or four months, Dr. Pal-
mer about a year and a half, and then I went to work for the pencil fac-
tory. Mr. Herbert Schiff employed me at the pencil factory. Sometimes
Mr. Schiff paid me off, sometimes Mr. Gantt, sometimes Mr. Frank. I
don’t remember when I saw Mr. Frank pay me off or how many times. I
drawed my money very seldom. I would always have somebody else
draw it for me. I told Mr. Holloway to let Gordon Bailey draw my money
mostly. He’s the one they call “Snowball.” The reason why I didn’t
draw it myself I would be owing some of the boys around the factory and
I didn’t have it to pay, and I would leave the factory about half past
eleven so that I didn’t have to pay it, and then I would have Snowball

draw my money for me mostly. I would see him afterwards and he would
give me the money. Sometimes I would go down through the basement
out the back way to keep away from them. The reason I let them draw
my money I owed some of them, and some of them owed me and I wanted
them to pay me first before I paid them. I didn’t want to get my money
on the inside because I didn’t want them to see such a little I was draw-
ing to what they were drawing. I wasn’t drawing but $6.05. Snowball
was drawing $6.05. As to who it was I didn’t want to see what I was
drawing, there was one named Walter Pride; he’s been there five years.
He said he drew $12.00 a week. Then there was Joe Pride, he told me he
drew $8.40 a week. They were down in the basement and asked me how
much I was drawing. I told them it wasn’t none of their business. Then
there was a fellow named Fred. I don’t know how much he drew. The
next one was the fireman. I don’t know how much he drew. There were
two or three others, but I didn’t have no talk with them. I was just hid-
ing what I drew from Walter Pride. As to whether I couldn’t draw my
money after Walter drew his without his knowing it, well he would al-
ways be down there waiting for me. As to whether I couldn’t get my
money without his being behind me and seeing what I got, he could see if
I tore open the envelope. I had to open it to pay them with. That’s the
reason I didn’t go and draw my money. I know I could have put it in my
pocket, but I couldn’t tear it open unless I took it out. Yes, the reason I
didn’t draw my money was because I didn’t want to pay them. That’s
the reason I let Snowball draw my money. They could have slipped up
behind me and looked. As to whether I couldn’t walk off and keep them
from seeing it, if I didn’t tear it open, then they would keep up with me
until I did. He would follow me around. No, I wasn’t trying to keep out
of paying them. As to what I was trying to do, if they paid me then I
would pay them. The way I liked to settle with them, I liked to take
them to the beer saloon and buy twice as much as they get. If I was there
when they come in on me, I would say, “I owe you, let’s drink it up.”
Yes, I would get out of it if I could, but if they saw me walk up and pay
them that way. I paid Walter Pride sometimes that way and sometimes
the other way. I would say, “I owe you fifteen cents, I buy three beers,
and you owe me fifteen cents, and that be three beers.” I say if I would
be in the beer saloon when they come in there, I would do that, but if I
could get out before they saw me, I would be gone. I never did know
what time the watchman come there on Saturday, or any Saturday. I
never have seen the night watchman in the factory. I have seen young
Mr. Kendrick come and get his money. He always comes somewhere
about two o’clock to get his money. I-have seen him lots of times Satur-
day and get his money. He always got it from Mr. Frank at two o’clock.
No, I didn’t know Newt Lee. I heard them say there was a negro night
watchman, but I never did know that he was a negro. I knew they paid
employees off at twelve o’clock. I don’t know what time the night watch-
man would come there to work. Mr. Holloway stays until 2:30. I couldn’t
tell the first time I ever watched for Mr. Frank. Sometimes during the

last summer, somewhere just about in July. As to what he said to get
me to watch for him that was on a Saturday, I would be there sweeping
and Mr. Frank come out and called me in his office. I always worked un-
til half past four in the evening. I would leave about half past twelve,
ring out and come back about half past one or two. Sometimes I would
ring in when I came back and sometimes I wouldn’t. I ringed in every
morning when I came. I never did ring in much. I would do it after
they got after me about it. It was my habit not to do it. As to how they
would know how much to pay me if I didn’t ring in, I knew they paid me
$1.10 a day, all the time. No, they didn’t pay me by the clock punches,
they paid me by the day, they paid me llc. an hour. Sometimes I would
punch the clock when I got there; that was my duty. Sometimes I was
paid when I didn’t work, I don’t know how that happened, but Mr. Frank
would come and tell me I didn’t take out that money for the time you lost
last week. I don’t know on what date he ever did that on. Yes, I always
got my money in envelopes. As to how they would know how much to
put in the envelope, when I didn’t punch, they would come and ask if
I was here every time I didn’t ring in, and they would ask Mr. Holloway
if I was here. .If the clock didn’t show any punch, they would ask me if I
was here at that hour. No they wouldn’t ask how many hours I was here,
they would just ask if I was here a certain hour and then they would pay
me for the full day, whether I punched the clock or not, just so I punched
it in the morning. The lady that was with Mr. Frank the time I watched
for him some time last July was Miss Daisy Hopkins. It would always
be somewhere between 3 and 3:30. I was sweeping on the second floor.
Mr. Frank called me in his office. There was a lady in there with him.
That was Miss Daisy Hopkins. She was present when he talked to me.
He said “You go down there and see nobody don’t come up and you will
have a chance to make some money. The other lady had gone out to get
that young man, Mr. Dalton. I don’t know how long she had been gone.
She came back after a wlhile with Mr. Dalton. They came upstairs to Mr.
Frank’s office, stayed there ten or fifteen minutes. They came back down,
they didn’t go out and she says, “All right, James.” About an hour af-
ter that Mr. Frank came down. This lady and man after she said “All
right, James” went down through the trap door into the basement.
There’s a place on the first floor that leads into another department and
there’s a trap door in there and a stairway that leads down in the base-
ment, and they pull out that trap door and go down in the basement. I
opened the trap door for them. The reason I opened the trap door be-
cause she said she was ready, I knew where she was going because Mr.
Frank told me to watch, he told me where they were going. I don’t know
how long they stayed down there. I don’t know when they came back. I
watched the door all the time. Mr. Dalton gave me a quarter and went
out laughing and the lady went up the steps. Then the ladies came down
and left, and then Mr. Frank came down after they left. That was about
half past four. He gave me a quarter and I left and then he left. The
next Saturday I watched was right near the same thing. It was about

the last of July or the first of August. The next Saturday I watched for
him about twelve o’clock he said “You know what you done for me last
Saturday, I want to put you wise for this Saturday.” I said, “All right,
what time ?” He said, “Oh, about half past.” After Mr. Holloway left,
Miss Daisy Hopkins came on in into the office, Mr. Frank came out of the
office, popped his fingers, bowed his head and went back into the office.
I was standing there by the clock. Yes, he popped his fingers and bowed
to me, and then I went down and stood by the door. He stayed there
that time about half an hour and then the girl went out. He gave me half
a dollar this time. The next time I watched for him and Mr. Dalton too,
somewhere along in the winter time, before Thanksgiving Day, some-
where about the last part of August. Yes, that’s somewhere near the
winter. This time he spoke to me on the fourth floor in the morning.
Gordon Bailey was standing there when he spoke to me. He said, “I
want to put you wise again for to-day.” The lady that came in that day
was one who worked on the fourth floor; it was not Miss Daisy Hopkins.
A nice looking lady, kind of slim. She had hair like Mr. Hooper’s. She
had a green suit of clothes on. When Miss Daisy Hopkins came she had
on a black skirt and white waist the first time. I don’t know the name of
that lady that works on the fourth floor. Yes, I have seen her lots of
times at the factory, but I don’t know her name. She went right to Mr.
Frank’s office, then I went and watched. She stayed about half an hour
and come out. Mr. Frank went out of the factory and then came back. I
stayed there and waited for him. He said, “I didn’t take out that
money.” I said, “Yes, I seed’you didn’t. He said “That’s all right, old
boy, I don’t want you to say anything to Mr. Herbert or Mr. Darley about
what’s going on around here.” Next time I watched for him was Thanks-
giving Day. I met Mr. Frank that morning about eight o’clock. He said
“A lady will be in here in a little while, me and her are going to chat, I
don’t want you to do no work, I just want you to watch.” In about half
an hour the lady came. I didn’t know that lady, she didn’t work at the
factory. I think I saw her in the factory two or three nights before
Thanksgiving Day in Mr. Frank’s office. She was a nice looking lady. I
think she had on black clothes. She was very tall, heavy built lady. Af-
ter she came in that Thanksgiving Day morning, I closed the door after
he stamped for me to close it. She went upstairs towards Mr. Frank’s
office. Mr. Frank came out there and stamped, and I closed the door.
Mr. Frank said, “I’ll stamp after this lady comes and you go and close
the door and turn the night latch.” That’s the first time he told me about
the night lock. And he says, “If everything is all right you kick against
the door,” and I kicked against the door. After an hour and a half Mr.
Frank came down and unlocked the doors and says, “Everything is all
right.” He then went and looked up the street and told the lady to come
on downstairs. After she came down, she said to Mr. Frank, “Is that
the nigger ‘?” and Mr. Frank said, “Yes,” and she said, “Well, does he
talk much ?” and he says, “No, he is the best nigger I have ever seen.”
Mr. Frank called me in the office and gave me $1.25. The lady had on a

blue skirt with white dots in it and white slippers and white stockings
and had a gray tailor-made coat, with pieces of velvet on the edges of it.
The velvet was black and the cloth of the coat was gray. She had on a
black hat with big black feathers. I left a little before 12 o’clock. I
didn’t see anybody else there that day at the office. The next time I
watched was way after Christmas, on a Saturday about the middle of
January-somewhere about the first or middle. It was right after New
Year, one or two, or three or four days after. It was on a Saturday. He
said a young man and two ladies would be coming. That was that Sat-
urday morning at half past seven. I was standing by the side of Gordon
Bailey when he come and told me, and he said, I could make a piece of
money off that man. Yes, Snowball could hear what he said. The man
and ladies came about half past two or three o’clock. They stayed there
about two hours. I didn’t know either one of the ladies. I can’t describe
what either one of them had on. The man was tall, slim built, a heavy.
man. I have seen him at the factory talking to Holloway, he didn’t work
there. I have seen him often talking to Holloway, through the week. You
asked me what I did the second Saturday after I watched for him, well, I
don’t remember. As to what I did the Saturday I watched for him the
second time, I disremember what I did. The Saturday after that, I think
about the first of August, I did some more watching for him. I don’t re-
member what I did the Saturday before Thanksgiving Day. I don’t re-
member what I did the Saturday after Thanksgiving Day. I don’t re-
member what I did the next Saturday. I don’t know, sir, what I did the
next Saturday. The next Saturday I did some watching for him. I
watched for him somewhere about the last of November after Thanks-
giving Day. No, I don’t remember any of those dates. Couldn’t tell you
to save my life what time I left home the first time I watched for him. I
couldn’t tell you what time I got to the factory the second time I watched
for him, nor what time I left home. I don’t know whether I drew my
money on the first Saturday I watched for him. I disremember whether
anybody else drew my money for me the second Saturday I watched for
him. I don’t know how much I drew. I couldn’t tell you whether I drew
my money Thanksgiving Day or not. I don’t know how much I drew. I
don’t remember what time I got down or what time I left. I don’t know
when I got to the factory the day before Thanksgiving, or how long I
worked there. I don’t remember how many hours I worked the first Sat-
urday I watched for him or the second, or the third, or Thanksgiving
Day. No, I don’t know how much I drew on those days. The first time I
was in prison was in September. The next was sometime before Christ-
mas, I can’t remember the date. I was there thirty days. It was some-
where along in October. A year before that I was in prison too, about
thirty days. I have been in prison three times since I have been with the
pencil company. I have been in prison about three times within the last
three or four years. I have been in prison seven or eight times within the
last four or five years. I can’t give you any of the dates, nor how long I
stayed there any of the times that I was there. I don’t know what month

or what day it was, nor how long I stayed there. I knew the factory was
not going to be run on April 26th. Yes, Snowball and I drank beer to-
gether sometimes in the building. Yes, we used to go down in the base-
ment and drink together, but he aint the only man. I never was drunk at
the factory. Snowball wasn’t there the first Saturday I watched for Mr.
Frank. I think he laid off. I don’t know whether he was there the sec-
ond or third Saturdays, I didn’t see him Thanksgiving morning, but I
saw him the day before Thanksgiving. That was the time that Mr. Frank
told me to watch for him. He talked to me before Snowball. I don’t
know whether Snowball was there in January when I watched. Snow-
ball was there in January in the box room when Mr. Frank told me to
watch for him. I don’t know whether Mr. Frank knew he was there or
not. There were eight niggers in all working in the factory. Snowball,
the fireman and me did just plain manual labor, the rest of the negroes
had better jobs. Snowball, the fireman and I were the last negroes to get
jobs there. We were the new darkies; the others had been working there
before we went there. Mr. Frank used to laugh and jolly with me. I
couldn’t tell you the first time he did this. Mr. Darley has seen him jol-
lying me. They would jolly me together. They would play and go on
around there with me. It has been so long ago I can’t tell you any of the
jokes. Mr. Schiff and Mr. Holloway has seen him joking with me. He
would say, “Come on I am going to make a graveyard down there in the
basement if you don’t hurry and bring that elevator back up here.” Mr.
Holloway heard him say that. Mr. Schiff has seen him playing with me.
He would goose me and punch me and tell me I was a good negro. I don’t
remember anything else he said. Yes, Mr. Darley would goose me and
kick me a little bit, just playing with me. Mr. Schiff would crack jokes
with me. I don’t remember the time. The time Mr. Frank came in the
elevator and told me about watching for him, he didn’t know Snowball
was in there. Snowball was standing right there by me. Mr. Frank could
have seen him and he could have heard anything that was said. He saw
Snowball standing there, I have been at the factory over two years. I
don’t remember the day or month I went there. It was some time in 1910.
I don’t remember whether it was summer or winter. Miss Daisy Hop-
kins worked on the fourth floor in 1912. I don’t know when she quit. I
saw her working from June, 1912, up until about Christmas. Yes, I
worked on the same floor with her, I don’t know whether she worked
there in 1913. Miss Daisy was a low lady, kind of heavy, and she was
pretty, low, chunky kind of heavy weight. I don’t know what color hair
she had or eyes, or her complexion. She was light skinned. She looked
to be about twenty-three. I know she was there in June, because she gave
me a note to take down to Mr. Schiff. I remember that because the note
had June on it. Mr. Schiff said it had “June” on it when he read it. I
can’t read but he read that note and he read ‘June something,” it was
on the outside of the note. It was on the back of the note. “June” was
written on the back of that note. She wrote the note and folded it up
and he read “June” on the back of it and he laughed at it. The reason

I know she left the factory during Christmas because Mr. Dalton told
me she wasn’t coming back. He told me that one Saturday coming down
to the factory. I never have seen Mr. Dalton except at the factory. No,
he doesn’t work there. I saw him somewhere along in January. He came
out that time by himself. He and a lady had been down in the basement.
The last time I saw him the detectives brought him down at the station
house and asked if I had ever seen him in there. I saw Mr. Holloway at
the factory the first Saturday I watched for Mr. Frank. The next Satur-
day I watched, he was sick and wasn’t there. He was sick two Saturdays
in June. I disremember whether I saw Mr. Schiff and Mr. Darley. I re-
member seeing Mr. Darley at the factory on Thanksgiving Day. I don’t
remember what time he left. I couldn’t tell you anybody who came to
the factory the first Saturday I watched. The second time I think there
were some young ladies working up on the fourth floor. I don’t know
about the third time. I don’t know whether anybody was working there
Thanksgiving or not. I didn’t see Mr. Schiff at all. I will swear that he
was not in the office with Mr. Frank. I don’t know whether any ladies
were working there the next time or not. I have been back in the metal
department, but I never have been on the right hand side where the” ma-
chines are. I have swept on the second floor, but not in the metal depart-
ment. I don’t know where those vats are back there. I don’t know what
you are talking about. I don’t know anything about the plating room. I
never have been in Mr. Quinn’s office. I have put disinfect-ants in the
ladies’ and gentlemen’s closets back there. I wouldn’t go inside. I would
only go to the door. I stood outside of the door and sprinkled it in a little
way. Outside of that, and going to Mr. Quinn’s office I have never been
on the left hand side of the factory. I have been there where they wash
the lead at, and I have stuck bills in Mr. Quinn’s office. Yes, I have been
back in there where that dark place is. I don’t know how many times I
have stacked some boxes back there. I have been back there three times
altogether. Sometime before Christmas. Yes, sir, you can see from the
top of the stairway back in there. I have been back there three times
altogether. Sometime before Christmas. Yes, sir; you can see from the
top of the stairway to Mr. Frank’s inside office. A man sitting at Mr.
Frank’s desk can see people coming up the stairway if he is watching for
them. If the safe door is open I don’t hardly think he can see them. If
it is shut he can. I am certain of that. I thought you were talking about
the third floor. He couldn’t see people coming up from the first floor. He
can see them after they get along by the clock. I left the factory 5:30
Friday afternoon, before the factory stopped. I think I punched when I
went out. One of them was ten minutes fast. That was the one on the
right, I left there without drawing my money because I knew I wasn’t
going to draw but $2.75 and I owed the watchman a dollar and I knowed
I wouldn’t have enough for me and to pay him and I told Mr. Holloway
to let Snowball draw it for me. Snowball drew it for me and met me at
the shoe shop at the corner of Alabama and Forsyth Street. He gave me
$3.75. I wasn’t supposed to draw but $2.75, and Mr. Frank taken that

dollar for the watchman and stuck an extra dollar in my envelope and
that made $3.75. I don’t remember how many beers I drank Friday.
Yes, I told Mr. Scott I got up at 9 o’clock that morning. That wasn’t
true. I ate breakfast about seven. Yes, I told Mr. Black I ate at 9:30.
That wasn’t true. I left my house between 7″and 7:30. I told Mr. Scott
I left somewhere between 10 and 10:30. No, that wasn’t true. I got to
Peters Street about 25 minutes to 8. I don’t know how long I stayed
there. Some things in my affidavit that I made that are true. Yes, there
are some things in my last affidavit that are true. I was arrested on the
first of May. I sent for Mr. Black to come down when I made my first
statement on May 18th. Yes, I denied I had been to the factory in that
statement. I made that statement in the detectives’ office. Mr. Black
and Mr. Scott were present. They didn’t question two or three hours. I
did some writing before then, before that statement was made. Yes, I
know I did some writing before May 18th. I did some writing in Chief’s
office that Sunday. I told Black I bought whiskey on Peters Street at
about 10:30. I told them I paid forty cents for ft. I don’t remember tell-
ing them that I bought the whiskey at 11 o’clock. Yes, I told them I went
into the Butt-In Saloon after I went to Earley’s for the whiskey. Some
of it I told them was the truth and some of it wasn’t. They asked me if I
was lying and I held my head down. I held back some of the truth, and
when they asked me if that was the truth I hung my head down. I didn’t
want to give the man away, but I wanted to tell some and let him see what
I was going to do and see if he wasn’t going to stick to his promise as he
had said. I told them I went into Butt-In Saloon and saw some negroes
at tables shooting dice and I won ninety cents and bought a glass of beer.
I told them that I went to three beer saloons. I told them after I went
home at 2:30, I went to Joe Carr’s saloon and got 15c. worth of beer. I
don’t remember telling them that I went there between 3:30 and four
o’clock. The detectives talked to me nearly every day after I made my
first statement. Sometimes hours at a time. No, they didn’t cuss me.
Yes. I sent for Black on May 24th. When the statement came out in the
papers that’s the time I sent for him. As to how I knew it came out in
the papers, I heard the boys across the street hollering extra papers. Mr.
Black came down after I sent for him and I told him it’s awful hot in
here, and I told him I was going to tell him something, but I wasn’t going
to tell him all of it now. I told him that I would tell him part and hold
part back. Scott and Black were both there. Yes, I told Mr. Black on
May 24th, the time I made the second statement, that I helped tote the
little girl. I sure remember that. I think I told them about Mr. Frank
getting me to watch for him, that he told me he struck a girl and for me
to go back and get her. I didn’t give Mr. Frank clear away that time. I
kept some things back. I don’t remember now whether I told them at
that time or not. I don’t know whether I told them about going down
the basement or not. The first time I told them I wrote the notes on Fri-
day. They didn’t tell me my story wouldn’t fit. I don’t remember them
telling me anything about changing my statement. I told them that was

all I had to say. They never told me they wanted me to tell anything
else. They didn’t say anything to me that it didn’t sound right. Mr.
Black talked to me right smart and Mr. Lanford talked to me a little. No,
they never talked to me a whole day. As to why I changed my statement
from Friday to Saturday, I put it on Saturday, because I was at the fac-
tory on Saturday. As to why I didn’t put myself there on Saturday, the
blame would be put on me. I didn’t want them to know that I had writ-
ten any notes for Mr. Frank. Yes, in that statement I told the officers I
was going to tell the whole truth. I told them that I got up at nine
o’clock, because there was nothing doing at the factory that day at the
time. I said I was there at 9 o’clock, because he had done told me where
to meet him at. Yes, I told them that I was going to tell the whole truth.
Yes, the reason I told them I left home at 9 or 9:30, because there was
not anything doing at the factory at that time. I told them it was about
9 o’clock when I looked at the clock, because I don’t know what time it
was when I looked at the clock, and I told them I had some steak and
some sausage for breakfast and a piece of liver and I drank some tea and
bread. Well, there was some sausage, but I don’t know whether I ate it
or not. Yes, I had steak, liver and sausage for breakfast. I know I ate
the steak and a piece of liver, and drank a cup of tea and ate some bread.
I got up that morning at six o’clock. Yes, I told the officers I got up at 9
or 9:30. I don’t remember anything else I told them. Yes, I told them
that I went straight to Peters Street and went in the first beer saloon
there, and drank two beers and gave a fellow a beer, that had a whip
around his neck. I told them three saloons and I called two names. I
don’t know whether I told them about this whiskey or not. I told them
I bought it between 10 and 10:30. No, that is not true. I told them that
on account of my saying I didn’t leave home until about 9 or 9:30. I
bought it about a quarter to eight. The reason I told these lies about the
time was because I didn’t want to put myself at the factory twice, be-
cause there wasn’t anything doing at the factory that morning. That is
the only reason I told that story. I don’t know when the first time was I
told them I got there at 8 o’clock instead of 10 or half past, it was after I
got out of jail up there. I guess I made most of these changes after I got
out of jail. I don’t know who the detective was I told about my not leav-
ing home at 9 o’clock. Four of them were talking to me, all at the same
time. I think it was Starnes and Campbell that I told that to, about
changing the time. I don’t remember whether I told them then that I
was going to tell the whole truth. I told them that after I got out of jail,
after I got back to headquarters. If you tell a story you know you’ve got
to change it. A lie won’t work, and you know you’ve got to tell the whole
truth. Yes, I knew it was bound to come when I told it the first time. I
didn’t tell the whole truth then, because I didn’t want to give the whole
thing away then. In the statement where I told about my moving the lit-
tle girl for Mr. Frank, the reason why I didn’t correct it then about the
time I bought the liquor, I don’t know whether I did it then or not, but I
did tell them. I told them I drank four or five beers that morning. I told

them at the first saloon I bought two beers. I didn’t tell them I bought
any wine at that time. I told them I had some wine put in my beer. What
they call wine. It wasn’t any wine though. I don’t know whether I told
them that in the statement I made about moving the little girl or not.
The wine was put in my beer at Mr. Earl’s beer saloon on Saturday morn-
ing. I told that to Mr. Black and Mr. Scott, I don’t remember when. As
to my not testifying about that yesterday, you didn’t ask me that. I re-
member telling you that yesterday. I remember saying I didn’t buy any
wine. No, I didn’t say anything about putting beer in wine yesterday,
but I remember I said something about putting wine in beer. I know I
told you that yesterday. I don’t remember telling them I started straight
from Peters Street to Capital City Laundry. I told them I started for the
laundry after leaving Mr. Frank at the factory. If they have got it down
there, I must have said so. I don’t remember saying it. I told them I
met Mr. Frank at the corner of Nelson and Forsyth Street before I went
to the factory. Yes, I told them I went from Peters Street and met him
at the corner of Nelson and Forsyth before I went to the factory. As to
why I told them that story, because I did meet him there. No, I didn’t go
straight from Peters Street to meet him at the corner of Nelson and For-
syth as I told them. I went straight from Peters Street to the pencil fac-
tory. I don’t remember when the first time I told the truth about it. I
told it either to Mr. Starnes, Mr. Campbell, Mr. Black or Mr. Scott. I
told it after I got out of jail, I remember telling the officers when he said
“Ah, ha,” when I met him at the corner. I don’t remember telling the
officers that he asked me where I was going and I told him I was going to
the Capital City Laundry to see my mother. I don’t remember saying
that to the officers. If I did say that it was not the truth. As to why I
lied about that, because I did tell Mr. Frank down there when I left the
factory that I was going to see my mother. I told the officers he stayed
at Montag’s about 20 minutes. I did tell you yesterday that I didn’t have
any idea how long he stayed there, because I haven’t any idea now. As to
why I didn’t say yesterday that it was 20 minutes, because you didn’t ask
me. I didn’t tell Mr. Dorsey how long it was, because he didn’t ask me
what I told detectives about it, but I told detectives that. I told them that
story because I didn’t have any idea how long he stayed there. I don’t
know how long Mr. Frank stayed there. I told the officers 20 minutes as
that was the best I could do about it, so I just told him 20 minutes. I
told the detectives about wanting me to watch for him when I got back to
the factory. I don’t know why I didn’t tell them that at the time I told
them about moving the body. I don’t remember who I told it to or when,
but I told them. I did tell them about Mr. Frank stamping his foot. I
don’t know whether I told them at the time I told about helping move the
body. I told it to Mr. Scott, Mr. Black, Mr. Campbell, Mr. Starnes and
Mr. Dorsey. Mr. Starnes and Mr. Campbell wasn’t in there sometimes
when I told it. No, I didn’t tell it to Mr. Scott and Mr. Black. They
dropped the case and Mr. Starnes and Mr. Campbell taken it up. They
came down and was talking to me for a month or more in my cell. Yes, I

told Mr. Black about Frank stomping his foot and Mr. Scott. I told them
all about it. Yes, I told the detectives that the first party I saw going up
the factory after I got back from Montag’s was Miss Mattie Smith. That
was a mistake. I didn’t see Mr. Darley go up after I got back from Mon-
tag’s. No, I didn’t say yesterday that I saw him go up after I got back
from Montag’s. I don’t know whether Mr. Darley saw me or not. I was
sitting right there at the box. He could have seen me if he had looked, so
could Miss Mattie Smith. The rest of them could have seen me if they
had looked. Yes, I told the officers the first time I saw them go up was
after I got back from Montag’s. That was not so. I was just mistaken
about it. Don’t know when I corrected the mistake or to whom. Yes, I
stated it to Mr. Dorsey. It was after I came from jail. I have corrected
it to Mr. Starnes and Mr. Campbell too. It was about 11:30 when Mr.
Darley left the factory, right after we got back from Montag’s. It may
have been about 11 o’clock. Miss Mattie Smith left the factory some-
where about 9:30. It was after we got back from Montag’s that I saw Mr.
Darley leave. Mr. Holloway and the peg-legged negro went upstairs and
came down before Mr. Darley left the factory. They could have seen me
sitting on the box, as they came out the factory. Mr. Holloway left about
10 or 15 minutes after Mr. Darley left. It may have been four or five min-
utes. After Mr. Holloway left, I told them Mr. Quinn came in. I may
have told them that a lady dressed in green was the next one. That
wasn’t true. A lady in green did go up before Mr. Darley came down.
She came down before Holloway and Darley left. If I told the officers
that she went up after they left, I made a mistake. Mr. Quinn was the
next man that went up after Mr. Holloway came down. Yes, I said that
yesterday. Yes, I said yesterday Mr. Quinn was the last man I saw come
down. No, I didn’t say yesterday Miss Monteen Stover came down after
Mr. Quinn came down. I might have told the officers that I saw Mr. Hol-
loway return upstairs, turn to the right toward Hunter Street and go in
the factory. If I did, I made a mistake. I don’t remember all the mis-
takes I made. No, I have never told about a lady going up there after
them six or seven minutes, I was mistaken. I don’t know whether I have
ever corrected that mistake or not. She went upstairs and Mr. Quinn
went up and came down before she did. If I told the officers she stayed
there 7 or 8 minutes and came right down, I made a mistake. I don’t
think I corrected that mistake at all. I don’t know how long it was after
she came down before any body else went up and down. If I told the offi-
cers it was 10 or 15 minutes that was a mistake. I don’t think I corrected
that mistake at all. I haven’t got any idea at all how long before the lady
in green came down that anybody else went up. Yes, I told Mr. Scott and
Mr. Black that the only people who went up at all were Miss Mattie
Smith, Darley, Holloway and the woman in green, and nobody went up
and down until Mr. Frank whistled. No, that wasn’t true. The reason
why I told that story was because I didn’t want them to know that these
other people passed by me, for they might accuse me. The reason why I
didn’t tell them was because I didn’t want people to think that I was the

one that done the murder. I told them that I saw those four men go up
because I didn’t think they saw me sitting there, and I didn’t tell of see-
ing the other people for fear they would report on me. The reason why I
told the police about those four going up there, because that is all I could
remember that went up and down. I don’t know when my memory got
fresher about other people going up and down. I think it was after I got
out of jail. I think I corrected that with Mr. Starnes, Mr. Campbell and
Mr. Dorsey, at police headquarters. After I corrected with the detectives
down at headquarters, they took me to Mr. Dorsey’s office. I have been
in Mr. Dorsey’s office three times. Mr. Dorsey was down at headquarters
with me I think about four times. As to whether it took Mr. Dorsey about
seven times to get my testimony straight, it didn’t take him that long to
get it straight, it took that long for me. As to why I didn’t tell it all, I
didn’t want to tell it all. I was intending to hold back some. I didn’t want
to tell it all right at one time. I just told a little and kept back a little.
Yes, and Mr. Dorsey went down seven times while I was telling some and
holding back some. They didn’t ask me to take back any stories. No, it
didn’t take Mr. Dorsey seven times to tell the story. Yes, I said I added
to it every time he went down. But he wouldn’t came back and try to do
anything with it. I didn’t tell the officers that I went to a moving pic-
ture show after I left the factory. I said I looked at the pictures from the
outside. I told them I went on Peters Street and looked at the pictures
from the outside. I stayed there about ten or fifteen minutes. I drank
two glasses of beer. I don’t know whether it was in the first, second or
third statement that I told about watching for Mr. Frank. Two of the
detectives were there. Yes, I locked the front door that Saturday of the
murder. I don’t know what time. It was somewhere after dinner. I
can’t give you any estimate. It was later than 12 o’clock. It wasn’t one
o’clock, because it was four minutes to one after I went upstairs and came
downstairs and unlocked the door. Yes, I heard the stamping before I
locked the door, and I heard the scream before I heard the stamping. Af-
ter he stamped for me I went and locked the door. I couldn’t tell to save
my life how long the door stayed locked. I was upstairs between the time
I locked the door and the time I went down and unlocked it. I unlocked
the door before I went upstairs. I locked the door when he stamped and
I unlocked it when he whistled. As soon as he whistled I unlocked the
door and went upstairs. Mr. Frank sent me back in the metal depart-
ment. He wouldn’t go back there with me. When he whistled that was
the signal for me to unlock the door and the stamping was for me to un-
lock the door. He showed me how to lock the door that day. He showed
me how to lock the door on Thanksgiving Day too. I don’t know how he
came to show it to me again. I guess he thought I forgot it. When I went
down to leave the door were unlocked, both doors were unlocked. The
only thing I remember Mr. Frank telling me was not to let Mr. Darley
see me around the door, that a young lady would be up there after awhile
to chat, and he wanted me to watch for him. No, he didn’t tell me what
he wanted me to meet him at Nelson and Forsyth Street for. Yes, I could

have come back to the factory just as well as going to meet him at Nelson
and Forsyth Street if he had told me that. I don’t know why he told me
to meet him at Nelson and Forsyth. I don’t remember telling the officers
that I met him accidentally at Nelson and Forsyth Street. Mr. Frank
sayed at Montag’s about an hour. Mr. Frank went to Montag’s between
10 and 10:30 and stayed about an hour. I guess it was about a half an
hour. Mr. Frank didn’t say a thing about why he wanted me at the cor-
ner of Nelson and Forsyth Street. Before we went to Montag’s he said
he didn’t want me to say anything to Mr. Darley that there was going to
be a young lady there after a while, and he told me that again after we
came back from Montag’s. Mr. Frank gave me the signal about stamp-
ing and whistling on Thanksgiving Day and he repeated it again that
day. I told yesterday how he done it, like I am telling now. I think I am
telling the truth now. We had been hack from Montag’s about five min-
utes when the lady in the green dress went up. She stayed up there a
good little while, ten or fifteen minutes. I didn’t tell the officers the peg-
legged negro went up first. I didn’t tell them in the first statement. I
may have told them in the next statement. The peg-legged negro didn’t
stay up stairs no time. Came back down with Mr. Holloway. Mr. Dar-
ley came down five or ten minutes after Mr. Holloway came down. Yes,
that was after he came back from Montag’s. I have no idea what time it
was. After Holloway came down, the lady with the green dress came
down. She went on out and Mr. Quinn came in. He went up and came
down before Monteen Stover came in and before Mary Phagan came in.
Yes, I am certain of that. No one else came in after Mr. Quinn except
Mary Phagan. Mr. Quinn, Monteen Stover and Mary Phagan went in
almost the same time. They went and came out almost together. Quinn
first, Mary Phagan next and Monteen Stover next. Mr. Quinn had al-
ready come out of the factory when Mary Phagan went up. I didn’t see
Mrs. Barrett, or Miss Corinthia Hall or Miss Hattie Hall or Alonzo Mann,
or Emma Clarke. I didn’t see none of them. I never saw Mrs. White go
in there at all that day. I was sitting on the box all the time. I got up
twice to make water. I made water against the elevator door, right in
front of the elevator shaft. Miss Stover had done gone then, and Mr.
Quinn also. I went to sleep after Miss Monteen Stover came down. Don’t
know how long I was asleep, maybe ten or fifteen minutes. I heard the
scream before I went to sleep, before Monteen Stover ever went in there.
Mr. Quinn had already gone. I told the officers I didn’t see Mary Phagan
go up at all. I didn’t tell them I heard any scream. I don’t know when
I first told that story. I told Mr. Starnes and Mr. Campbell. That was
after I got out of jail. I said I heard the scream before I went to sleep,
which I did. Monteen Stover came up and went down before I went to
sleep. I told Mr. Starnes and Mr. Campbell about somebody running
back on tiptoes. I don’t know when I told them. He woke me up stamp-
inz, then I locked the door, and went to the box and kicked on the side of
the elevator door. It was about ten or fifteen minutes after he stamped
‘hat I heard him whistle. When he whistled I unlocked the door. I don’t

know when I first told about Mr. Frank standing at the top of the stairs,
trembling and nervous. I told Mr. Dorsey, Mr. Starnes and Campbell. I
don’t know why I didn’t tell it the day I told them I was going to tell the
whole truth. I didn’t mean to keep back anything then. That day I told
them everything I remembered. When I got to the top of the stairs, Mr.
Frank had that cord in his hands. I don’t remember when I first told
about that. U I didn’t tell it that day when I said I was telling the whole
truth, I just didn’t remember it. When I told Black and Scott that I was
telling the whole truth I didn’t say anything about Mr. Frank having hit
the little girl. I thought I had told them that. I have told that to some
of the officers. I remember now that I told them that. He told me to get
her out of there some way or other. He didn’t say she was dead. I didn’t
l”now she was dead. I went back there and found the cord around her
neck. When I looked at the clock it was four minutes to one. That was
after I went and seen the girl was dead, and he told me to bring her up
there. I was standing at the steps. I could see the clock from there.
Then I went back and got a piece of striped bed tick, something like your
shirt there, had whitish looking stripes on it. I taken the cloth and spread
it down and rolled the little girl in the cloth and tied it up. When I laid
her down in the cloth, I tied the cloth around her. I did my best. Her
feet were hanging out of the cloth, also her head. If I didn’t tell Black
and Scott anything about the hat and the slippers and the ribbon, they
must not have asked me. I know I took the things and pitched them in
front of the boiler. The elevator don’t hit hard when it hits the ground.
The wheels at the top don’t make any noise. The motor makes a little
noise, something like a June bug. The elevator hits the dirt at the bot-
tom, but it don’t make any noise. I left the factory about 1:30. The rea-
son why I didn’t tell Scott and Black before I wrote four notes instead of
two, they dian’t ask me how many I wrote. Another reason why is, be-
cause Mr. Frank taken that and folded it up like he wasn’t going to use
it. I wrote three notes on white and one on green paper. The green one
is the one he folded up like he wasn’t going to use it. I don’t know how
long it took me to write those notes. I took me somewhere about two
minutes and a half, I reckon. The reason I didn’t tell Scott and Black
about burning the body, because someone had done taken them off the
case. Mr. Scott told me. The first time I told that was to Mr. Starnes
and Mr. Campbell after I came back from jail. I don’t remember telling
the officers that Mr. Frank told me he was going to send those notes to
his folks up North. If they have got it down there I must have said it.
He told me he was going to write to his mother and tell her that I was a
good negro. The reason I didn’t take the parasol down with the shoes,
it was too far back for me to see it. I got my hair cut last week. My law-
yer sent the barber. They gave me a bath and bought me clean clothes.
My wife gave me my shirt. I didn’t read any newspapers on Monday
about this crime. It don’t do me no good because I can’t make any out.
I didn’t try to read any that day. I washed that shirt on Thursday, May
I.t, in the metal room about half past one or two. As to how that dung

came to be in the elevator shaft, when Mr. Frank had explained to me
where he wanted to meet me and just as I started out of the place that
negro drayman came in there with a sack of hay and I gave him a drink
of whiskey that I bought at Earley’s saloon on Peters Street that morn-
ing, and he suggested that I go down in the basement and do it, there’s a
light down there, and I went down the ladder and stopped right by the
side of the elevator, in front of the elevator, somewhere about the edges
of it. No, I didn’t see the two white men go up and talk to Mr. Frank in
his office that day. No, I didn’t see a man by the name of Mincey at the
corner of Carter and Electric Avenue that day. I didn’t tell him that I
killed a girl that day. I didn’t say I killed one to-day and I didn’t want
to kill another. I didn’t tell Harlee Branch that Mary Phagan was mur-
dered in the toilet room on the second floor, or that the body was stiff
when I got back there, or that it took at least thirty minutes to get the
body down stairs and write the notes. I don’t remember telling Miss
Carson on May 1st, that Mr. Frank was innocent. I didn’t have any con-
versation with Miss Mary Pirk on April 28th and she didn’t say that I
committed the crime and I didn’t shoot out of the room immediately af-
ter she said that I didn’t tell Miss Carson on Monday that I was drunk all
day Saturday. I didn’t see her at all on Monday. I didn’t tell Mr. Her-
bert Schiff on Monday that I was afraid to go on the street, that I would
give a million dollars if I was a white man. I said if I was a white man I
would go on out. I didn’t say nothing about no million dollars because I
don’t know what it takes to make a million. I didn’t ask Miss Small on
Monday what the extra had in it and I didn’t say Mr. Frank is just as in-
nocent as you are. I didn’t ask Miss Fuss on Wednesday for an extra, I
didn’t tell her that I thought Mr. Frank was as innocent as the angels in
heaven.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I never was in jail until April 26th. I have been down at police head-
quarters several times. First time I was arrested was for throwing
rocks. I was a small boy then. I was arrested another time for fighting
black boys, then I was arrested about drinking and disorderly, and the
last time I was arrested was about fighting again. I never have fought
with a white man or white woman. Police officers took me down to jail
and to door where Mr. Frank was. I never did see Mr. Frank in jail. The
last time I saw Mr. Frank was in the station house before I had talked.
He looked at me and smiled and bowed his head. While I was writing
the notes, Mr. Frank took the pencil out of my hand and told me to rub
out that “a” I had down there on the word “negro.” I saw Mary Pha-
gan’s pocketbook, or mesh bag, in Mr. Frank’s office after he got back
from the basement. It was lying on his desk. He taken it and put it in
the safe. When I went back to see about the girl, it wouldn’t have taken
more than about a minute to go down and lock and unlock the door. He
had time enough to do it. Mr. Scott talked to me about three hours and
a half one Thursday. Mr. Frank told me he would send me away from

here if they caught me. He would get me out on bond and send me away.
I never saw Mincey before seeing him at the station house in Mr. Lan-
ford’s office. I had orders from Mr. Frank to write down how many
boxes we needed and give it to him. I didn’t tell Mr. Black or Mr. Scott
about the mesh bag because they didn’t ask me. I disremember when I
first told about it. I think it was after I was in jail. I told Mr. Dorsey
about it after I came out of jail. Mr. Frank knew for a whole year that
I could write. I used to write for him the word “Luxury,” “George
Washington,” “Magnolia,” “Uncle Remus,” “Thomas Jefferson,”
that’s the name of pencils. I spell ” I Uncle Remus” ” O-n-e Rines. ” I
spell “Luxury” I ‘ “L-u-s-t-r-i-s.” I spell ” I Thomas Jefferson” ” T-o-m
Je-f-f- or J-e-i-s-s.” I spell “George Washington” “J-o-e W-i-s-h-
t-o-n.” After Mr. Frank found out what I meant he understood it. I
spell “ox” “o-x.” Yes I wrote him orders to take money out of my
wages. The pocketbook was a wire looking whitish looking pocketbook,
had a chain to it. You could take it and fold it up and hold it in one hand.
When I wrote the word “Luxury” and “Thomas Jefferson,” I didn’t
have anything at all to copy from. I was writing it down for Mr. Frank.

MRS. J. A. WHITE, recalled for the State.

I have seen this man before at police headquarters (indicating Con-
ley) about a month after the murder. At that time I did not identify him
as being the man I saw sitting on the box. The man sitting on the box
was about the same size as Jim Conley. I couldn’t state it was Jim Con-
ley. He was sitting in a dark place, and he looked black to me. He had
on dark clothes. I don’t know whether he was bareheaded or not. I told
Bass Rosser about this on May 7th. That was the first time I told of it.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I told the detective about this as soon as I saw one. I never kept it
a secret from anybody. I spoke to Mr. Wade Campbell about seeing the
darkey. I didn’t tell him that I saw the negro as I went up into the fac-
tory about 12 o’clock. I didn’t tell him that, when I came down the steps
the last time, I didn’t see anybody.

C. W. MANGUM, sworn for the State.

I had a conversation with Mr. Frank at the jail about seeing Conley
and confronting him. Conley was on the fourth floor. Chief Beavers,
Chief Lanford and Scott came down to see Mr. Frank with Conley and
asked me if they could see him. I went to Frank and told him the men
were there with Conley and wanted to talk with him if he wanted to see
them. He said, “No, my attorney is not here and I have nobody to de-
fend me.” He said his lawyer was not there; that no one was there to
listen at what might be said.

N. V. DARLEY, recalled for cross-examination.

On the ground floor the door to the Clark Woodenware Company
was nailed up immediately after that company left there. We found it
broken open after the murder and we nailed it up again. It was two or
three days after the murder. Sitting at Mr. Frank’s desk, the most that
one can see is about half of clock No. 2, which is on the left of clock No.
1. If the safe door was open in the outer office, you have no view into
Mr. Frank’s office from the outside. You might tiptoe and look over the
door. A man of my height could just tiptoe and see over it. The pack-
ing room next to Mr. Frank’s office works from 11 to 17 ladies and men.
Passing by elevator shaft as you go in building on ground floor, you come
to a door to Clark Woodenware Company’s place, which was nailed up
immediately after that company left there. We found it broken open af-
ter the murder. I don’t know what day, it must have been two or three
days after, and we nailed it up again. (Witness identifies various por-
tions of factory from the factory model-Defendant’s Exhibit 4). There
is no lounge, sofa, cot or bed in the whole factory. I found two boxes
down in the basement in Clark Woodenware side of old dirty, rotten
stuff, too dirty and rotten for a human being to rest upon. It’s boggy in
there. They had on top of them some dirty, filthy, nasty crocus sacks.
There is no lounge, bed, sofa or anything of the sort in the metal room.
I have never seen a chair in there. I have never seen any blood under
the machine that Barrett claims he found hair on. I never saw any blood
on the place the negro claims the little girl’s body was lying. You can
get into the metal room either from the front or the back if the back door
is open. You can lock the back door from the inside. There is a cross
bar across the door. The rule was to keep it locked, but a great many
times I found it unlocked. It was very dark around the elevator on the
first floor on April 26th. It was a cloudy day and darker than usual be-
cause the front doors were closed. It’s too dark to stand on the outside
and see through the elevator. I left the factory with Mr. Frank on his
way to Montag Brothers. I never saw Jim Conley that day. I never
saw Mr. Frank talk to him or speak to him or come into contact with him
in any way that day. I have never goosed or pinched Jim Conley or jol-
lied with him. I kicked him when I caught him loafing, and sometimes I
would take a piece of board to him and he would laugh every time I did
it. I have never seen Mr. Frank goose or pinch him or play with him or
jolly him. No, I never knew Daisy Hopkins. I have never seen Dalton
until this morning. From June, 1912, until January, 1913, I left the fac-
tory at twelve o’clock on Saturdays, and usually came back between five
and six. I did that most every Saturday during the two years that I
have been there. I may have missed sometimes, but not many. Only on
one occasion do I recall that Mr. Frank said he would not be there on
Saturday afternoon. I would visit the factory every Saturday after-
noon between five and six to find out how the financial was for the week.
I found Mr. Frank in his office on every occasion except the one I have

mentioned above. Mr. Schiff would help him on the financial. A few
Saturdays I have gone there and Mr. Schiff was not there. He may have
been on his vacation. I hire and discharge all the help. I came in con-
tact with the help ninety per cent. more than Mr. Frank. Mr. Frank has
nothing to do with employing or discharging them. On Saturday, Hol-
loway is supposed to leave the factory at four o’clock and the night
watchman comes on. We had no negro night watchman there last Sep-
tember as stated by Mr. Dalton. Our night watchman was Mr. Ken-
dricks, a white man. The first time we ever hired a negro night watch-
man was three weeks before the murder. As to who else stayed at the
factory on Saturday afternoons, usually the office boy, sometimes the
stenographer, Walter Pride, who cleans up the third floor. I have never
known any other time but Saturday that the financial sheet was worked
on, except possibly a holiday. I saw Conley on Monday. He looked to
be excited and when I spoke to him he failed to look up as he usually
does. I went around the factory that morning and looked at everybody
to see if I could pick out a man that looked suspicious, and Jim Conley
was the man I thought looked fhost suspicious. The latter part of last
year I issued orders that the sweepers must stop cleaning up by twelve
o’clock and if they hadn’t cleaned up by that time they would have to
knock off and leave the factory. If they stayed there after twelve o’clock
I didn’t know anything about it. Harry Denham usually stayed in the
factory every other Saturday afternoon to clean the motor and oil the
machinery and he selected some one to stay with him. He would do this
about twice a month. The girls in the packing department did quite
some overtime work on Saturday afternoon.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

I have made no contribution toward the fund to defend Frank. I
don’t know anything about Daisy Hopkins’ general character. I don’t
know who nailed up the door on the Clark Woodenware side. Lots of
people have been there all over the factory. If a body had been shot
down the chute, behind those boxes, it would have been hidden more than
where it was found. The boxes around the chute are piled nearly to the
top. I never noticed any difference in the boxes Sunday from what I left
them there Saturday. No, I don’t know anything about Conley being
there Saturday afternoons and watching. He wasn’t there by my in-
structions. There is a good deal of water on the floor of the metal room.
On payday in order to keep the people from coming down the back, the
instructions are always to close the back door to the metal room. There
is no special reason for the paint to go out of the polishing room, but it is
out in other places. It is carelessly done. You can see haskoline scat-
tered around. The floor in metal room where body is supposed to have
been found has a rise of several inches in it, something like an edge. As
to whether a man standing up and looking over the safe door hasn’t got
a vision going beyond the clock so that he could see everybody that reg-

istered, he couldn’t see it. I tried it. I don’t know whether either the
clock or the desk has been moved before I went to see. My recollection
is that the table is nailed to the wall and the clock screwed to the table.
You can tear the whole thing up and move it. The desk could not be
moved without my knowing it. I didn’t have the clock fixed after April
25th.
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.
On Friday last I made an experiment by sitting at Frank’s desk and
leaned over as far as I could see through the outer door towards the clock.
I could see half of the circle on clock No. 2. I could not see any of the
other clock at all. The clock and desk could not have been moved with-
out my instructions. The paint is scattered all round. It gets all over
the place and we can’t prevent it. We never have washed the metal
room floor since I have been there. We never found any water or blood
where it was said the girl’s body was found in the metal department.
The view I got from front door on April 26th into area around elevator
shaft was blocked by boxes.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I communicated immediately with the police when we found the
blood back there. I think Harry Scott was the first man I reported Con-
ley’s nervousness to. It was on Monday, April 28th.

E. F. HOLLOWAY, recalled for cross-examination.
I am the day watchman and time keeper. I look after the register to
see that everybody registers. No, it was not a habit of Conley to regis-
ter or not as he pleased and to get his pay anyhow. If he didn’t register
I always got after him. I applied the same rule to him as I did to any-
body else. I never saw Mr. Frank goose, pinch or joke with Conley. I
never saw him touch him in any way, unless it was when he would go in
the office to borrow money, I would see him hand him a quarter, or some-
thing. He surely was a good hand at borrowing, but Mr. Frank would
never let him have a nickel but what he owed him. Up till twelve months
ago the sweepers stayed at the factory until about 2:30, but then they
made a rule that any sweeping that wasn’t done by noon on Saturday
would have to go over until Monday and since that time no negroes have
been there since 12 o’clock. We never had any negro nightwatchman in
July, August, September, or any time last fall. We never had a negro
night watchman until we hired Lee, which was about three weeks before
the murder. Since June of last year, on Saturday afternoons, I always
stayed around the factory and looked after seeing that nobody came in
or out, unless they had business. I never have seen anybody goose Con-
ley. Sometimes I would kick him to make him go on to his work. The
door that leads to the Clark Woodenware place never was locked. It was
nailed up when the Clark Woodenware moved out of there. I nailed it

up myself. It was open on the Monday after the murder. It led back to
a chute in the rear, and to two waterclosets on the right. Nobody occu-
pies that now. I was at the factory every Saturday since last June ex-
cepting legal holidays when the factory was shut down. I did not miss
a single Saturday in July, August, September, October, November, De-
cember, and January, excepting legal holidays. On Thanksgiving Day
I stayed there until 12 or 1 o’clock. I have never missed a Saturday
since I have been working at the factory. I would be relieved on Satur-
days at 4:30 p. m. I would go all over the building trying to see that
everything is all right. That was my business. I have never known Mr.
Frank to have any woman on Saturdays excepting his wife. She came
there on Saturdays and went home with him, about once a month. Mr.
Schiff helped Mr. Frank on his books on Saturdays. Conley never did
watch the door down stairs. If he did, it must have been after 4:30 p. m.
I never did see him giving signals to Mr. Frank and Frank giving him
signals from upstairs. I was obliged to have seen them if he had watched
the door. I sat mainly in the front of the building to see that nobody came
in building. I do not recall any Saturday afternoon that Frank and Schiff
missed except when Schiff was off on his vacation. I have never seen any
of them bring any women in there or take any out. I have never been
sick or missed a single Saturday since last year. I would leave about
4:30 Saturday afternoon. I have never seen Dalton in the factory at all.
I wouldn’t have let a fellow like that in the building unless I knew what
his business was. There was nobody practicing any immoralities in the
building. If they did I would know it. I would have put them out
quickly. Daisy Hopkins quit sometime in May or June last spring. She
has never been there since she quit. Mr. Darley left the factory be-
tween 9 and 10 o’clock on April 26th. He was not there after 11 o’clock
at all. If he was, he was there after 11:45, the time I left there. I have
never seen the front doors locked on Saturday. I was at the factory un-
til noon on Thanksgiving Day. I saw no girls with white shoes and stock-
ings there that day. I never saw Jim Conley that day. I never saw any
woman at the factory that day. I sure would have seen Conley had he
been watching the door that day. I have seen Mr. Frank at the factory
every Saturday afternoon after he comes back from lunch. I would pass
in and out of his office three or four times in the afternoon. I have never
seen a glass of beer as long as I have been there. I have never seen any
women up there. He would be working on his books. Mr. Schiff would
be helping him. The stenographer and shipping clerk would sometimes
be up there. People would be liable to drop in there on business and I
would send them up to Mr. Frank’s office. I always kept the door on
Saturdays. I never turned it over to Conley or anybody else. I have let
Mrs. Frank in and would tell her to go up in the office and have a seat.
This man Wilson worked on Saturday afternoon most all the time. Oiled
up the motor and cleaned it while the factory was closed. Pride, Harry
Denham, Charlie Lee, and Fast usually worked there on Saturday oiling
the machinery after they shut down and different things. They were not

shut off by any doors from going anywhere they wanted in the factory.
They were liable to come down and around any time. I have never seen
the doors either to the outer or inner office of Mr. Frank locked. They
have got glass fronts in them that you can see through, and it would not
have done any good to have shut them. The windows in Mr. Frank’s
office looked right out on Forsyth Street. The shades to them are torn
up so they don’t amount to much. In the morning they will pull them
dow-n to keep the sun out. When they are up you can see pcross the
street. Salesmen frequently visited Frank on Saturday afternoons
when they came in from their runs without any announcement. I have
never known Mr. Frank to refuse to see any of them. It is very dark
about the elevator shaft on the ground floor. The shaft is about ten or
twelve feet from the steps. If a girl was coming down the steps and a
man was in that dark place it would be a very easy job for him to throw
her down the shaft. He could grab her before she ever saw him because
she would be looking toward the door. The members of the firm of Mon-
tag Brothers frequently visited the factory on Saturday afternoons. I
remember seeing Drayman McCrary on April 26th. He came around to
see if there was any hauling. I don’t remember the time. I never saw
Conley on April 26th. If he was there he was skulking around and hid-
ing. I never saw McCrary talking to him that day. On Monday morn-
ing I saw Conley, instead of being upstairs where he ought to be sweep-
ing, he was down in the shipping room watching the detectives, officers
and reporters. I caught him washing his shirt. Looked like he tried to
hide it from me. I picked it up and looked at it carefully and it looked
like he didn’t want me to look at it at all. The day before that he went
out with a pair of overalls corresponding to this blue shirt that he has,
and he said he wanted to carry them to a negro at Block’s candy factory
and he had not had time to have gone to the candy factory before he came
back and said that they were taking stock over there and would not let
him in. The overalls had been washed and dried and I could not tell if
there is anything on them or not. I don’t know whether he can write or
not. At your request to-day I walked from the middle of the car track at
the corner of Broad and Hunter to the pencil factory and then upstairs
in Mr. Frank’s office. I walked just in an ordinary way like I thought a
lady would walk. It took me two and a half minutes. I walked from the
corner of Marietta Street and Forsyth Street to the pencil factory. It
took me six minutes.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

I didn’t have any conversation with Kendrick, the night watchman,
since this murder was committed as to whether or not Frank ever called
him after he left the factory that night. No, I did not try to get Kendrick
to swear that. No, I didn’t tell Whitfield the day before they turned up
that big club” Be sure to come back to-morrow, you will be certain to find
something.” So far as I know the general character of Daisy Hopkins

is good. I don’t remember telling you the contrary. I don’t deny sign-
ing that affidavit (Exhibit “I,” State). I don’t remember telling you in
this paper (Exhibit “I,” State), “She is anything but a nice girl. You
can’t depend on what she says.” Yes, I said it in the affidavit I gave it
was 10:45 when Mr. Frank and Mr. Darley left. Mr. Frank got back
about 11 o’clock. That was all guess work about the time they left. I
never said anything about getting the reward for Jim Conley. I told
some of the detectives several days after they came down after the negro
if this negro is convicted he is my negro. I knew about the reward being
offered. If I told you that I sometimes left the factory at three o’clock I
meant four o’clock. Jim Conley worked regularly at the factory except
when he was in the stockade thirty days. Conley registered every morn-
ing, but a lots of times he would not register at dinner and sometimes at
night. I nailed up the door that leads into the Clark Woodenware place
on Monday because we never let that door stand open. Mr. Darley told
me to do it. I know it was not open on Saturday. It was nailed up Sat-
urday noon when I left there and it was open Monday when I got there.
The chutes back there were nailed up. The one next to the rear end of
the building I know was nailed up to keep the Clarke Woodenware peo-
ple from coming up through there. Boxes were piled up back in there.
That stairway back there has been nailed up for some time. Hasn’t been
used since Christmas. If the negro went out and bought beer I didn’t
know it. I never saw him. I don’t recollect whether the drayman was
up there April 26th to get his pay or not. There was so much excitement
in the factory on Monday that we shut down about 9:30. Nobody stayed
at their work. Jim Conley quit work like everybody else and went out.
As to one thing that Conley did that the others didn’t do I haven’t got
any. The shirt he was washing was the same shirt he had been wearing
all day. I say that he was trying to hide the shirt because he was trying
to push it over behind the pipe where you couldn’t see it. He had the
shirt on when he was arrested. He was not trying to hide it then.

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.
I was subpoenaed to Mr. Dorsey’s office by regular court subpoenae.
I thought I had to go there. There were three or four men when I got
there.
GEORGE EPPS, re-called for cross-examination.
I was present on Sunday after the murder when a gentleman came
out to the house and talked to me and my sister about when was the last
time we had seen Mary Phagan. He didn’t ask me, he asked my sister.
I wasn’t there. I was in the house. I didn’t hear him ask my sister that.

HARRY SCOTT, re-called for State.
It took Jim Conley two or three minutes to write out the notes that
I dictated to him.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I knew on Monday that Mrs. White claimed she saw a darkey at the
pencil factory. I gave that information to the police department. Mr.
Frank gave me the information when I first talked to him. I never in-
quired of Frank or any of the pencil factory people if Conley could write.
Sunday, May 18th, I was present when Conley made his statement. May
18th. I wrote it out myself. (Defendant’s Exhibit 36). He made no
further statement on that day. He stated that he did not go to the pen-
cil factory at all that day. At that time I knew he could write. He told
me everything that was in that statement. The information that Conley
could write came from the pencil factory on May 18th. On May 18th I
dictated to Conley these words: “That long tall black negro did by him-
self.” I dictated each word singly and I should judge it took him more
than six or seven minutes to write it. He writes quite slowly. When he
was brought before Mrs. White to see if she could identify him he was
chewing his lips and twirling a cigarette in his fingers. He didn’t seem to
know how to hold on to it. He could not keep feet still. He positively de-
nied on May 18th that he had anything to do with the murder of Mary
Phagan and that he was at the factory at all. We talked very strongly
to him and tried to make him give a confession. We used a little profan-
ity and cussed him. He made that statement after he knew that I knew
he could write. We had him for about two or three hours that day. He
made another statement on May 24th which was put in writing. (De-
fendant’s Exhibit 37). He was carried to Mr. Dorsey’s office that day
and went over the statement with Mr. Dorsey. He still denied that he
had seen the little girl the day of the murder. He swore to all that the
statement contains. That statement was a voluntary statement from
him. He sent for Mr. Black and we went there together. We questioned
him again very closely for about three hours on May 25th. He repeated
the story that he told in his statement of May 24th. We saw him again
on May 27th in Chief Lanford’s office. Talked to him about five or six
hours. We tried to impress him with the fact that Frank would not have
written those notes on Friday. That that was not a reasonable story.
That showed premeditation and that would not do. We pointed out to
him why the first statement would not fit. We told him we wanted an-
other statement. He declined to make another statement. He said he
had told the truth. On May 28th Chief Lanford and I grilled him for
five or six hours again, endeavoring to make clear several points which
were far-fetched in his statement. We pointed out to him that his state-
ment would not do and would not fit. He then made us another long
statement on May 28th (Defendant’s Exhibit 38), having been told that
his previous statement showed deliberation; that that could not be ac-
cepted. He told us then all that appears in the statement of May 28th.
He never told us anything about Mr. Frank making an engagement for
him to stamp for him and for him to lock the door. He told us nothing
about seeing Monteen Stover. He did not tell us about seeing Mary Pha-

gan. He said he did not see her. He didn’t say he saw Lemmie Quinn.
Conley was a rather dirty negro when I first saw him. He looked pretty
good when he testified here. Frank was arrested Tuesday morning at
about 11:30; on May 29th we had another talk with him. Talked with
him almost all day. Yes, we pointed out things in his story that were im-
probable and told him he must do better than that. Anything in his story
that looked to be out of place we told him wouldn’t do. After he had
made his last statement we didn’t wish to make any further suggestion
to him at that time. He then made his last statement on May 29th (De-
fendant’s Exhibit 39). He told us all that appears in that statement.
We tried to get him to tell about the little mesh bag. We tried pretty
strong. He always denied ever having seen it. He never said that he
saw it in Frank’s office, or that Frank put it in his safe. We asked him
about the parasol. He didn’t tell us anything about it. He didn’t tell
us anything about Frank stumbling as he got on the street floor at the
elevator and hit him. Since making this statement on May 29th I have
not communicated with Conley and have not seen him. He never told us
that he came from his home straight to the factory. He denied knowing
anything about the fecal matter down in the basement in the elevator
shaft. He never said he went down there himself between the time he
first came to the factory and went to Montag’s. He never said he thought
the name of the little girl was Mary Perkins. He never said anything at
all about Mary Perkins. We pressed him that day as to whether he saw
Mary Phagan or not. He finally told us that he saw her dead body. He
never did tell us that he heard a lady scream though we asked him about
it. He said he did not hear anybody scream while he was sitting on the
box. He said he didn’t hear anything at all that day. He never said any
thing about Mr. Frank having hit her, and having hit her too hard. He
never said anything about somebody running on tiptoes from the metal
department and back again. He said he did not hear any stamping. He
did not tell us anything about Mr. Frank telling him how to lock the door.
He did not tell us anything about Frank having a cord in his hand at the
top of the steps or that Frank looked funny about his eyes or that his face
was red. He didn’t tell us that he went back there and found the little
girl with a rope around her neck and a piece of underclothing or that he
went back to Mr. Frank and told him the girl was dead, or that he wrap-
ped her in a piece of cloth. He said it was a crocus sack. He did not say
anything about Mr. Frank saying “Sh-sh.” He didn’t say that he put
the sack on his shoulder and that body dangled round about his legs. He
said he never saw the ribbon; didn’t know where it was. We asked him
whether there was any thought of burning the body and he said not. He
didn’t know anything about that. He never said anything about his
promising to come back and burn the body or that he said to Mr. Frank
“You are a white man and done it, and I am not going down there and
burn it myself;” or that Mr. Frank had arranged to give his bond and
send him away; or that Frank said he would have a place to get in by
when he came back to burn the body, or said he owed a Jew ten cents and

paid it. He did not tell us of any conversation he had with Mr. Frank on
Tuesday after the murder in which Mr. Frank said “If you had come
back on Saturday and done what I told you there wouldn’t have been
any trouble.” As to the scene between Conley and me when I undertook
to convince him that I knew he could write on Sunday, May 18th, I called
him up at Chief Lanford’s office, gave him a paper and pencil and told
him that we understood he said he couldn’t write and now we knew he
could write and we wanted him to write what we told him. He sat there
and looked at us while we were talking and I told him to write as I dic-
tated and he picked up the pencil and wrote immediately. We convinced
him that we knew he could write and then he wrote.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I got information as to Conley writing through my operations while
I was out of town. McWorth told me when I returned. I got no infor-
mation personally about Conley being able to write from the pencil com-
pany people. Personally I did not get information as to Conley’s being
able to write from pencil company. I got it from outside sources, wholly
disconnected with the pencil company. As to whom I first communicated
anything about Mrs. White’s statement about seeing a negro down there,
my impression is I told it in my many conversations with Black, and
Chief Lanford and Bass Rosser. Don’t know the day. It was shortly
after April 28th. After Conley made his last statement Chief Beavers,
Lanford and I went to the jail with Conley and saw the sheriff and he
went to Frank’s cell. The last time I saw Frank was Saturday, May 3rd.
As to whether Mr. Frank refused to see me, only through Sheriff Man-
gum, as to the number of matters I told Conley didn’t fit the first time
and those I told him didn’t fit the last time, I could not name those, that
would almost be impossible unless I had the statement clear in my head.
I never suggested what to put in or what to substitute or what to change.
They came from Conley himself.

THE STATE RESTS.

————————————————

EVIDENCE FOR THE DEFENDANT.

W. W. MATTHEWS, sworn for the Defendant.
I work for the Georgia Railway & Electric Co. as a motorman. On
the 26th day of April I was running on English Avenue. Mary Phagan
got on my car at Lindsey Street at 11:50. Our route was from Bellwood
to English Avenue, down English Avenue to Kennedy, down Kennedy to
Gray, Gray to Jones Avenue, Jones Avenue to Marietta, Marietta to
Broad, and out Broad Street. From Lindsey Street to Broad Street is
about a mile and a half or two miles. We make frequent stops. We were
scheduled to arrive at Marietta and Broad at 12:07(1/2). We were on
schedule. We stayed on time all day. Our car turned up Broad St. Mary

Pliagan got off at Hunter and Broad. It takes generally from two and a
half to three minutes to go from Broad and Marietta to Broad and Hun-
ter. That is a very congested street and you must go slow. I was re-
lieved at Broad and Marietta by another motorman, but sat down in-the
same car one seat behind Mary Phagan. Another little girl was sitting
in the seat with her. We got to Broad and Hunter about 12:10. Mary
and the other little girl both got off and walked to the sidewalk and they
wheeled like they were going to turn around on Hunter Street, both of
them together. The pencil factory is about a block and a half from where
they got off at Hunter and Broad. Nobody got on with Mary at Lindsey
Street. There wasn’t any little boy with her. The first time I noticed
the little girl sitting with Mary was when we left Broad and Marietta
Streets and I went back into the car and saw this little girl sitting with
her. I know the little Epps boy. I have seen him riding on my car. He
did not get on the car with her at Lindsey Street. I saw Mary’s body at
the undertaker’s. It was the same girl that got on my car.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I did not tell one of the detectives that we might have been running
three or four minutes ahead of schedule that day. I remember that Mary
did not get off the car at Broad and Marietta because there was a street
car conductor sitting behind me, an ex-conductor and he had a badge on
his coat and I looked at it and it had a little girl’s picture and I reached
over to where Mary was and said, “Little girl, here is your picture, ” and
she said, “No, it is not.” I don’t know who the other little girl was sit-
ting with her. The other little girl was dressed something like Mary. I
didn’t pay much attention to their dresses, but they looked sort of alike.
Mary’s dress wasn’t black. It was light colored. I know Epps since this
case came up. I could identify him. I never paid much attention to her
hat. It was light colored I reckon but I am not sure. It just seemed that
way.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

I identified Mary’s body Sunday afternoon after the murder at the
undertaker’s. There was no doubt about her being the same girl. I
knew her well by sight. She rode on my car lots.

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.
I can’t tell you whether that is the hat or not she wore.

W. T. HOLLIS, sworn for the Defendant.
I am a street car conductor. On the 26th of April I was on the Eng-
lish Avenue line. We ran on schedule that day. Mary Phagan got on at
Lindsey Street at about 11:50. She is the same girl I identified at the

undertaker’s. She had been on my car frequently and I knew her well.
No one else got on with her at Lindsey Street. Epps did not get on with
her. I took up her fare on English Avenue, several blocks from where
she got on. And no one was sitting with her then. I do not recollect Epps
getting on the car at all that morning. Don’t know whether anybody
else afterwards sat with Mary or not. We got to Broad and Marietta
seven and a half minutes after twelve, schedule time. I was relieved at
Forsyth and Marietta Streets, where I got off. Mary was still on the car
when I got off. It takes two and a half minutes to run from Broad and
Marietta to Broad and Hunter. I have timed the car again and again
since then. I identified the little girl at the undertaker’s Sunday after-
noon. Didn’t notice the color of her clothes.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Mary rode with us two or three times a week. So did Epps. I don’t
know where he got off or where he got on. We are not supposed to come
in ahead of time. We never come in two or three minutes ahead of time.
We are a little late sometimes. I never noticed anybody sitting with
Mary. She was sitting by herself when I got her fare. There wasn’t
but two or three passengers on the car and I know there wasn’t anybody
sitting with her. If Epps was on the car I don’t recollect it. I don’t re-
call the name of any other passengers except Mary Phagan. As to what
attracted my attention to Mary getting on the front end of the car, as a
general rule when she would catch our car Mr. Matthews would say to
her “You are late to-day,” and sometimes she would come in and remark
that she was mad; that she was late to-day and when she came that morn-
ing Mr. Matthews said to her, “Are you mad to-day?” and she said,
“Yes, I am late.” And sort of laughed and came on in the car and sat
down. She usually caught our car when she came in the morning, the
one due in town at 7:07. I didn’t know Mary’s name, I just recognized
Mary’s face as the little girl who traveled with us.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

I heard of the murder the next day. Newspaper reporters asked us
to go down and identify the girl. There was no doubt about her being
the little girl who was on our car. Oliver Street is the next street to
Lindsey. I did not see Epps get on at Oliver Street. It is against the
rule of the company to get to the city ahead of time.

RE-GROSS EXAMINATION.

It is not against the rules to get in behind time. Sometimes we
might get there a few minutes ahead of time, but hardly ever. We al-
ways look at our watches at the main destination, just at Broad and Ma-
rietta. We are supposed to do that.

HERBERT G. SCHIFF, sworn for the Defendant.

I am assistant superintendent of the National Pencil Co.; I have
been with the company about five years. Part of my duties was to get
up data for the financial sheet. I occupied the same office as Mr. Frank.
I took a trip on the road on the first Saturday in January. All of the
company’s money except the petty cash was kept over at Montag Bros.’
office at the general manager’s office, Mr. Sig Montag. All mail of the
company is received at Montag Bros. The men in Mr. Montag’s office
made the deposit of money of the company. Mr. Frank and I only
handled the petty cash ranging from $25.00 to $50.00. When we wanted
money for the pay roll, we would get a check from Mr. Sig Montag who
signed for the company. Mr. Frank and I had no authority to sign
checks. I would go to the bank and get the money and we would go to
work at once filling the pay envelopes. We would always draw the exact
amount of the pay roll. Our petty cash amounted to from $25 to $50.
We kept that on hand for items like drayage, kerosene, soap, candles.
The money for the cash would also come from Mr. Montag ‘s office. The
salary of Mr. Frank and myself were paid by check, on the last of the
month, or the first of next month. Mr. Frank’s salary was $150 a month
and my own $80. Montag Bros.’ office is about four blocks from the fac-
tory. The company’s bills were paid from Montag Bros.’ office, where
all the finances of the company were taken care of. We simply looked
after the manufacturing end. The financial sheet which Mr. Frank and
I worked on on Saturdays showed how our week terminates, whether at
a profit or loss. We had to show what we manufactured, what we packed,
the materials that were made to go on the pencils, covering lead, plugs,
tips, boxes. We showed our shipments, what our average order jobs
amounted to, what we purchased for and the price. Our factory week
began on Friday night and went through Thursday night. In making up
the financial sheet we would show it as ending on Thursday of every
week. We couldn’t make it up until Saturday afternoon because our re-
ports very seldom came in before Friday noon and sometimes Saturday
morning and also our pay roll which showed on the financial sheet. These
reports and the pay roll were necessary to make up the financial sheet.
We paid off at Saturday noon. It has been our fixed custom ever since
we have been in existence to make up the financial sheet on Saturday. I
help Frank make out the financial sheet by getting up part of the data,
getting up a sheet that we term the factory record, the number of pencils
packed for the week, getting up the tip records; I get the reports from
the different foremen and foreladies; I get the slat records from the slat
mills, the number of slats delivered to manufacture pencils with, and
give him the totals of the pay roll. With the exception of the last week
in July and the first week in August I missed no time from the factory
after June 1st, excepting my trip on the road during January. With
that exception I have not missed a single Saturday after the first of June,
1912. I usually leave the factory at 12:30 and return at 2 to 2:15. Frank

would leave a little after one and return about three. I do not recall a
single Saturday that Frank returned earlier than I did. As soon as
Frank would get back he would get to work on his part of the data and
he would continue to finish the sheet. We both worked together. The
street doors were always open. Office boy would be in the outer office.
Frequently we were interrupted by salesmen calling on us Saturday af-
ternoon. The stenographers came back very seldom on Saturday after-
noon. We were liable to be interrupted at any time on Saturday after-
noon by people on business. As to who else stayed at the factory on Sat-
urday afternoon, Harry Denham usually, Walter Pride, Holloway, who
would stay until 4:30. Newt Lee was the first negro night watchman we
ever had. Frank and I usually left the factory at half past five or a quar-
ter to six on Saturdays, we usually left together. Very often Mrs. Frank
would come up to the office on Saturday. I never saw Conley around the
office on Saturday afternoon after two o’clock. We never had any wo-
men up in the office. I never saw any there. There is not a bed, cot,
lounge or sofa anywhere in the building. There is a dirty box with dirty
crocus sacks on it in the basement on the Clarke Woodenware Company
side. It is very filthy and dirty down there. I went on the road on the
first Saturday in January, 1913. I got back to the factory that day about
2:15, in the afternoon. There were ten or twelve fellows there. Conley
was not there. They were all there and told me good-bye, with the ex-
ception of two or three who accompanied me to the train, including Mr.
Frank. There were no women at the factory. I have never seen Mr.
Dalton in the factory in my life. Daisy Hopkins worked on the office
floor. She left the factory June 6th, 1912, as appears on the time book.
Never saw her in the factory after she quit work. On the first Saturday
in January, Frank remained in the office with me until 5 o’clock to catch
my train. I was at the factory last Thanksgiving Day. It was very cold
and rainy. It was a holiday at the factory. The office boy and Conley
were also there. I ordered Conley to come back that day to clean up the
box room with Frank Payne, the office boy. Conley got through about
half past ten. I know he did not stay at the factory until noon. Frank
and I were all of the time in the office doing clerical work. Frank left
that day at 12 o’clock. We left together. I saw Frank catch his car for
home that day. Frank was carrying bundles, for the B’nai B’rith, which
was going to have an affair that night. Mr. Frank is president of it. It
is a charitable organization. It takes care of orphans and things of that
sort. I paid off the help on Friday, April 25th, from the pay window out-
side of the office. I remember paying off Helen Ferguson that day. No-
body came up to ask for Mary Phagan’s pay. Before any one could get
another’s envelope, they have to have a note to that effect. There was
no reason for anyone to go to Mr. Frank to get their pay Friday, April
25th. I was at the window paying off employees. We had posters put up
all over the factory announcing that Saturday would be a legal holiday
and that the factory would be closed. Those who would not call for their
pay would frequently come in on the next working day, which in this in-

stance would be Monday. No one could really know whether anyone was
coming in for their pay on Saturday or not. Helen Ferguson did not ask
for Mary Phagan’s pay Friday, April 25th. Mr. Frank and I left the fac-
tory between six and six-thirty that day. I was supposed to get up the
pencil contracts for the week on Friday. It was necessary to get this up
in order to complete the financial sheets. I did not get them up on Fri-
day, because I had to pay off on Friday, and as the week only closed on
Thursday night, we had all we could do to figure out the pay roll and get
the money before the bank closed at 2 o’clock on Friday. That threw ex-
tra work on Mr. Frank in getting up the financial on Saturday. I in-
tended to come back to the factory on Saturday morning, but overslept
myself. Mr. Frank called me by telephone twice on Saturday morning.
My maid answered the telephone. That picture (State’s Exhibit “A”)
shows Mr. Frank’s office, inner office, to be bigger than the outer office.
As a matter of fact the outer office is twice as large as the inner office.
The picture shows an inaccuracy as to the relative position of the eleva-
tor shaft from the outer wall of Mr. Frank’s office. It is directly oppo-
site the time clock. The picture shows it below the time clock nearly to
where the staircase is. The door entering into the Clarke Woodenware
place was open two or three days after the murder. The door was pre-
viously locked. There is a hole back there through which waste is thrown
down. It is an open hole. There is no lid to it. It is big enough for the
body of a girl of the size of Mary Phagan to go through. If a body was
thrown down it, it would roll down and stop on the platform. Mr. Frank
did not know that I had not completed the data sheet (Defendant’s Ex-
hibit “3”) for him before Saturday morning. It usually took Mr. Frank
and me about three hours to finish the financial sheet. That is the finan-
cial sheet that Mr. Frank made up on Saturday afternoon, April 26th
(Defendant’s Exhibit “2.”) It is in his handwriting. I didn’t see it at
the factory on Friday. First saw it the following week when I got it back
from the general manager. It is accurately prepared from the calcula-
tions left by me on the data sheet. I haven’t found any mistakes in it.
The first items on it are standing items and do not require any calcula-
tions, if you know it. Those are the items headed, “direct, indirect, rent,
light, heat, water, power, insurance, sales department, repair sundries,
machine shop.” Under the heading “Material Costs,” the first figure
27651/2 represents the number of gross that we manufactured for that
week. That is the data I furnished him through Wednesday night. I
left it there on his desk on Friday night. Mr. Frank’s calculation corre-
sponds with the data that I left there. He arrived at the same figure,
2765 �/2, that I did. To get that figure he had to enter all his packing re-
ports for Thursday containing two or three pages, each of them contain-
ing 12 to 15 or 18 items. He has to put that down under the number of
pencils that shows on this sheet. He has to calculate and have a separate
report as to each kind of pencil and then add them up. We manufacture
over a hundred kinds of pencils. That week we dealt with about thirty-
five different kinds. To do this you have to add, multiply, classify and

separate each pencil into a different class. The next item appearing on
the financial sheet is “slats,” 2719�. In calculating that he had to cal-
culate the number of gross of slats used, of the product of the pencils,
which should check up with the number of gross manufactured. He
would have to go through the packing report for that. The next item is
“rubber,” 720 gross at 61/2 cents, 667 + at 9 cents, 7061/2 at 14 cents.
That means the rubber plug that goes into the pencil tips. The cheaper
pencil takes a cheap plug and the higher grade pencil takes a higher
grade plug. That shows how many we use and the kind of plugs; to ar-
rive at that figure he had to go all through the grade of pencils for the
entire week, and separate the different ones. That is quite a calculation.
Next item is “tips,” the different kind of tips that are used on the pencil
to hold the plug. He would have to go through the grade for the entire
week, just like he did for the rubber. The next item is “lead,” which he
had to figure out the same way. Different class pencils take different
class lead. The next item is “supplies,” that is a fixed thing and involves
no calculation. The next thing is “boxes.” We have some pencils that
are packed in boxes and some that are not packed in boxes, and he had to
ascertain what pencils were packed in boxes, and in gross boxes, and in
half gross boxes, multiply them, get them all down together under the
head of” gross” to know how many boxes we used. Next item is “assort-
ment boxes.” He has to sort out his packing reports to know the num-
ber had for that week. The next item “wrappers” requires calculation
because every dozen pencils takes a wrapper. People sometimes want
them packed in tissue paper, and he has to know which pencils are packed.
He has got to go through all the pencils to determine which took wrap-
pers and which did not. Our pencil production averaged 2,500 to 3,000
gross per week. A gross is 144. The next item is “skeletons.” Skele-
ton is a card board with a little place in it where six pencils go on one side
and six on the other and the wrapper goes around it. The assortment
boxes don’t take skeletons, the cheaper pencils do. He had to know the
details of the production of pencils to determine how many skeletons
were used, just like he did the wrappers. The next item that required
figures is “lead deliveries.” We had two other places where we get ma-
terials from, slat mills at Oakland City and lead mills at Bell and Deca-
tur Streets. Mr. Frank kept the pay roll for Bell Street, and the lead de-
liveries for Bell Street. He had to get up for the next item the slats that
were cheap and good. Then he had to calculate all this stuff on down.
Next on this big sheet we have the number of every pencil manufactured.
We only use the numbers that are packed that week. When he gets
through he adds the total of the productions for that week of that depart-
ment and he comes over here and puts it down and multiplies it by the
price, the selling price, and besides these items we have pencils that are
bad. For instance, we have some of these jobs, if they have plugs in
them that are bad, he has to figure the number of plugs and the number
of tips that were in his job and put in all his jobs and come over there and
put down what his jobs amount to. That requires quite a good deal of

calculating. The handwriting on the financial of April 26th is in Mr.
Frank’s usual and average handwriting. I have been over carefully the
calculations in it and it represents accurately the operations of the fac-
tory for that week. We did not do any of the work on that sheet on Fri-
day. I think it would take about three hours to go through the calcula-
tions and complete that sheet. That was our average time. There is no
difference in the handwriting of Mr. Frank in the financial sheet of April
26th, from that of the week previous. It is just the same. The financial
sheets are all kept in this book here (Defendant’s Exhibit “9.”) The
one ending May 30, 1912, is in Mr. Frank’s handwriting. It was made on
the Saturday following that date. None of these financial reports could
be made in less time than two hours and a half. All these financial sheets
beginning with May 30, 1912, down to date are all in Mr. Frank’s hand-
writing. They were all done on Saturday afternoons. From May 30,
1912, up to date, Mr. Frank did not miss making a single financial sheet
on Saturday afternoon. These are the original financial sheets (Defend-
ant’s Exhibit “9.”) They are kept in our safe at the factory. This lit-
tle cash book (Defendant’s Exhibit “10”) shows the petty cash checks
we receive and what we spend it for, little items like kerosene, things like
that. The week of April 26th, we used $56.53 of the $96.48 we had, leav-
ing $40.00 on hand. The next week we had left on hand $34.54. That is
what is marked to balance, but that does not always mean that we have
that much money on hand. It means that we have accounted for it. We
may have lent it out, in advances to men. We put tickets in the cash
drawer when we do that and we count it as actual cash. On that Satur-
day, we couldn’t have over $30 or $35 in the drawer. Yes, I acquainted
Joel Hunter, the accountant, with all the data that goes in the financial
sheet and explained it to him in detail, and also Mr. Bidwell. I gave them
all the data necessary to make up the sheet. The sheet here headed
“Comparison 1912-1913” (Defendant’s Exhibit “11” is made up by Mr.
Frank to show the difference between one week of this year and the same
week of last year and in making that up he has to take the financial sheet
that he made this year and turn to the financial sheet that he made last
year for the same week and compare them. This is the comparison sheet
he made on Saturday. It is dated April 24, 1913. (Defendant’s Exhibit
“11.”) The requisition and house order book (Defendant’s Exhibit
“12”) also show Mr. Frank’s handwriting on April 26th. Also the last
two lines of these pencil sheets (Defendant’s Exhibit “7”) are in Mr.
Frank’s handwriting. I made up the pencil sheets through Wednesday,
but he had to make it up after Thursday. He had to put in all the items
from the packing room for Thursday, enter them under the numbers on
these other sheets and then add every item for the whole week. Mr.
Frank had to fill in April 24th on all three papers and then get in all those
totals in on that. All of the last two lines are in his handwriting. He
added up all this report for Thursday. He went through the report to
figure them up, that was usually my work. It would take him about fif-
teen, twenty or twenty-five minutes. The house order book shows what

day an order is received, the firm it is received from, where their place of
business and what date it is shipped. As to what work is in this house
order book (Defendant’s Exhibit 12) that Mr. Frank did on Saturday,
there is work in there in Mr. Frank’s handwriting that wasn’t in there
when I left the night of April 25th. Beginning with item 7187 on page
56, “Received from F. W. Woolworth, store 57, St. Joseph, Mo., came in
on the 16th, 17th, to be shipped at once.” That is in Mr. Frank’s hand-
writing, he entered that order. He would have to have that order before
him before he could enter in that book. The next item he entered was
“House order 7188, F. W. Woolworth, Store 68, Terre Haute, Ind.”
That was to be filled at once. He would send an acknowledgment card
for every order we received. If the order wasn’t understood, he would
write. The next item he entered was “House order 7189, Woolworth
Store 53, Logansport, Ind., to be shipped at once, received on 4-26-13.”
He figured that order out and entered it. The next order is “House or-
der 7190, store 585, DeKalb, Ill., received 4-26-13, ship at once.” The
next order is “House order 7191, store 25, Wilkesbarre, Pa., received
4-26-13, ship at once.” Next order “House order, 7192, store 212, Sara-
toga Springs, N. Y., received 4-26-13 to be shipped at once.” The next
order is 7193, send by mail to United Service Sioux 5 and 10 cent store,
Sioux, Mich., received 4-26-13, to be shipped August 1st.” Next order
is “House order 7194, Dubuque, Iowa, 4-26-13, at once.” Next is “House
order 7195, Montag Brothers, Atlanta, Ga., received 4-26-13, to be ship-
ped at once.” Next is “House order 7196, John Leellie, to John Magnus
Company, Chicago, Ill., 4-26-13, at once.” Next is “House order 7197,
R. E. Kendall Company, Cincinnati, Ohio, received 4-26-13, ship at
once.” All of these eleven orders are in Mr. Frank’s handwriting and
he entered them that day. That is the regular book that we keep those
orders in (Defendant’s Exhibit “12.”) I have looked at the original or-
ders and compared them with Mr. Frank’s entry in the book and they are
correct. I have here the original orders from which Mr. Frank made his
entries, with the exception of one, which I can’t find. They were in Mr.
Dorsey’s possession for some time. These are the eleven original orders
(Defendant’s Exhibits 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24.) After
Frank entered the orders in the house order book, he transcribed them
to these requisition sheets. In other words, in each order that he re-
ceives, he enters the order in the book, then makes out one of these requi-
sition sheets and then makes the acknowledgment of the order to the
party ordering the goods. All of these eleven requisition sheets (De-
fendant’s Exhibits 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35), are in Mr.
Frank’s handwriting and are 0. K. ‘d by me when I check it, which means
that we ship the goods. All of the goods called for by these orders have
been shipped out by me after being 0. K’d. with the exception of the or-
der of R. E. Kendall and Company, 7197, (Defendant’s Exhibit “24”),
which was cancelled by letter. None of these orders were at the pencil
factory when I left there Friday night, and they were there when I got
back on Monday. The work of looking over the orders and entering them

in the order book and making out the requisition has nothing to do with
making out the financial sheet. It is entirely independent of it. The
financial sheet shows the factory’s operations from Friday morning,
through Thursday night. These orders go into the next week’s business.
I saw Mr. Frank on Sunday after the murder. There was no scratch,
mark or bruise on him. Mr. Frank is a man of extreme temperament. If
anything went wrong about the factory, he would go all to pieces and get
nervous. It was not unusual for Mr. Frank to get nervous. When a
young child was run over by a street car, he came back as pale as death,
and I had to give him a dose of ammonia. He was no good for the rest of
the day. I know Jim Conley’s character for truth and veracity. It is
bad. I would not believe him on oath. The paper that these notes
found by the body was written on can be found all over the
plant. They get swept to the basement in the trash. I heard the tele-
phone conversation between Mr. Frank and Mr. Ursenbach about the
ball game. I heard Mr. Frank say, “Yes, Charles, I will go if I can.”
Sitting at Mr. Frank’s desk in the inner office you can see about half of
the dial of clock No. 2. You cannot see the steps leading down to the first
floor. If the safe door is open in the center office you can’t see anything
at all. It would have to be a pretty tall man to see over it. It would be
impossible for a girl of Monteen Stover’s height to see over it. The safe
door is always wide open while we are in the factory. I went through
the safe Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. I didn’t find any mesh bag
or pocketbook. I was with Mr. Frank constantly while he was at the fac-
tory on the Tuesday morning after the murder. He did not speak to the
negro Conley that day. Monday we tried to open up the factory, but
everybody was so excited that we couldn’t do any work. The girls were
standing around crying. We had to suspend. As I went out of shipping
room that morning, I saw Conley standing in the back of room. I said,
“What are you doing here?” He says: “I am scared to go out, I would
give a million dollars if I was a white man.” It is very dark on the
ground floor around the elevator. I have never known the doors to Mr.
Frank’s inner or outer office to be locked. Even if they were you can see
right through them, part of the door being glass. Anybody could look
through them and see what is going on in the office. The door to the ele-
vator can be easily lifted by anyone and anyone can be pushed down the
elevator shaft. The motor to the elevator is on the office floor, and the
wheels are on the top floor. When you start up, there is a noise. You
can always hear the jerk when the rope is pulled, and when it stops there
is a noise and when it hits the basement floor, there is a thud. The motor
also makes a distinct humming noise. The motor box is not kept locked.
I have gotten after Jim Conley many times about not registering. We
have docked him for not doing it. I have noticed blood spots on the floors
of the factory. Whenever one gets his finger hurt, he has to come to the
office to get it tied up. People have gotten hurt in the metal room, and in
coming to the office would walk by the ladies’ closet, through those doors.
The spots that Barrett pointed out in the regular path where a man

would come to the office if he were injured. There were four or five
strands of hair that Barrett discovered. I saw them. Could not pos-
sibly tell what color it was. The metal room floor has not been washed
since I have been there.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I knew on Monday that Mrs. White claimed she saw a negro there.
Frank telephoned me three or four times on Monday to get the Pinker-
ton’s. He was at home. I was at the factory. When the detectives got
to the factory Frank was at the station house. He was there nearly all
morning. He phoned me at first about twelve o’clock, and then again
about twelve-thirty. He wanted me to see if we could not in justice to all
the employees try to sift this thing down, and he suggested getting the
Pinkertons. He phoned again near one o’clock. Mr. Frank spoke about
his nervousness. He didn’t talk a great deal about it. He may have
spoken to me once or twice about it. I think one time he explained to me
how terrible the girl looked and the other time that they rushed him to
the undertaker’s in a dark room and threw on the light. He said he was
awfully shaken up. As to what Mr. Frank said when they telephoned
him about the murder, he asked what was the matter, had there been a
fire at the factory. Another reason he was nervous he said, he hadn’t
had any breakfast, he wanted a cup of coffee. We had been without a
stenographer quite a while. The work had accumulated to some extent.
As to what work there was in the factory for Mr. Frank to do Saturday
except the financial sheet, he entered the orders, made requisitions. I do
not know that Miss Hall entered all those orders. I know she took dicta-
tion. That is all I know about it. The first time I saw those orders en-
tered on the order book was on Monday or Tuesday. It takes about an
hour or an hour and a quarter to enter those orders on the book. It is
true that I testified before the coroner that it wouldn’t take over half an
hour to enter the orders. It takes an hour and a half to do all of the work
of transcribing them that you pointed out to me. Acknowledgments are
usually made by the person who transcribes the orders and enters them
on the requisition. If Mr. Frank didn’t make acknowledgments, that
would not make a difference of over five or ten minutes in time. I said it
would take an hour and a half to do all of the work lying on the table,
requisition and all, transcribe them and acknowledge them. As to what
that work was, beginning with order 7187 on the 26th, there are eleven
orders, going down through 7197. None of that was done on Friday, be-
cause the orders weren’t there when I left Friday night. I left Friday
night at half past six. I didn’t go to the factory on Saturday morning.
I have never timed Mr. Frank entering those orders. I said I guessed it
would take him thirty minutes to actually enter them. After entering
them he must transcribe and acknowledge them. The initials “H. H.”
on these orders (Defendant’s Exhibits 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23,
24), means Miss Hattie Hall, the stenographer. “H. G. S.” on these

requisitions (Defendant’s Exhibits 25 to 35, inclusive), are my initials,
mean that I checked the order and 0. K.’d it and it’s gone. Miss Hattie
Hall wrote the letters acknowledging the orders. I know that because
the latter has the letters “H. H.” dictated by .” We haven’t any reg-
ular way of acknowledging. Some orders are acknowledged before they
are ever touched. There is no certain first step. It is not necessary that
they should be entered in the book first. One step doesn’t hinge on the
other. If Hattie Hall had anything to do with writing these things, it
was done Saturday morning. The orders must also be transcribed from
the order to requisition sheet. The average sheet was the only sheet that
had not been worked on Friday that I found had been worked on when I
got back there. It had not been touched on Friday, and I had not given
any data for it when I left. The data I had to get up for it was the flat
production, the packing room production, the tips, I get that from this
packing room report (Defendant’s Exhibit 4-A). The handwriting is
that of Miss Eula May Flowers, the forelady. When I received that re-
port, I had to accumulate all the data, penciled it, and transferred it to
the pencil sheets here (Defendant’s Exhibit 7). These three sheets are
the only thing connected with the packing room for the week of April
24th. I wrote the figures Wednesday night and Mr. Frank did it Thurs-
day. Mr. Frank had to add two lines to the sheet. He could get those
from Miss Flowers’ report just as well as I could. The figures on the
bottom of the page are his. All the writing on this sheet is mine except
the last two lines at the bottom, which are his (Defendant’s Exhibit 7).
On that sheet, yes, there are just eleven figures, but you got three sheets
to get it from, one line on all three sheets and the total, making six lines
altogether. It is not easy to say how long that would take. It is merely
looking at those things and putting them down, you have got to go over
it, and get the different classes of goods that we pack and take it and put
it under the head of specialty, that is the head of the classes of goods
manufactured that week. You must have the slat record. I haven’t got
the slat record here. It certainly is different from this. It comes from
the cedar mill. The item on the financial sheet (Defendant’s Exhibit 2)
that he got from the slat record is the item under “Material Cost”–
“Slats 27191� gross at 22c.” That is all he would have to get on the
financial sheet with reference to slats. That wouldn’t take any more
time than taking these daily reports and putting them on here. He also
had to get the lead deliveries from the lead plant and the tip deliveries
from the tip plant. Our numbers run on the sheet like this, 1OX, 20X, etc.
Our two 1OX pencils, for instance, manufactured for the Cadillac Motor
Company, if they want a pencil with their name on it and our’s not on it,
we call it the 1OX special, of 5 1OX Cadillac special. We have got to go
down through each number that has been sold and get the make of each
style of pencil and they have to go in the right square, covering the right
shape and the right number of gross. If he didn’t he wouldn’t balance
with his packing reports and the whole sheet would be incorrect. These
papers here and the tip plant and the slat record and the lead record and

the packing are all the papers I know were not worked on Friday night
and which I found at the factory when I got there Monday. Frank needs
those four reports to make up his financial. Doing that work and enter-
ing those eleven orders is all that I know Frank had to do on April 26th.
I didn’t see them done. I say I found them done the next week. It was
certainly done between Friday night and Monday morning. I didn’t see
the financial sheet on Monday. The slat record comes from slat mills
and tip record from the tip plant. I compiled the data at our plant. If
Frank had started to work at eight-thirty, I think he could have finished
a greater part of this work by ten-thirty, if he had worked continuously.
It is true that he could have done all of the work in two hours and a half.
I didn’t hear him say that he could have done it in an hour and a half.
The work that I have just been over and the entries in the book and the
letters that he dictated to the stenographer is the sum total of all the
work that I have seen done on the books in the office on April 26th. Mr.
Frank and I were not paid off on the 25th, or 26th. In addition to the
work I have gone over, Mr. Frank had to balance the cash. This is his
writing in the cash book (Defendant’s Exhibit 40) and all those figures
were made that day. It doesn’t mean that 15c worth of kerosene was
purchased that day, because the entry is not dated that day, it means
that the figures were put on there that day, for the reason that the week
is not closed until that is added to the cash. The date this kerosene was
purchased, April 21st, is found in the little receipt book (Defendant’s
Exhibit 10). It was purchased on the 21st, as shown in the receipt book,
but was not entered in the cash book until the 26th. We don’t put our
items in the cash book the minute they are purchased. We put the total
of each item under sub-heads. If we pay drayage $2.00 on Tuesday, $2.00
on Thursday and $2.00 on Saturday, there would not be three entries in
the cash book, but they would be under one head “Drayage, $6.00,” and
everything else the same way. When we advance a man money it is put
down on a slip and entered in an envelope, called “Loan.” We don’t
take a receipt for it. I can show that Frank gave $2.00 to Arthur White
and it was deducted. I made the entry in the time book the next week
and deducted it the following Saturday. We don’t enter it on the cash
book. This average sheet (Defendant’s Exhibit 5) is all in Mr. Frank’s
handwriting. It begins from January 10, 1911. As a rule Mr. Frank put
on the financial sheet the average to show the General Manager how the
average of our orders have run. I don’t see it on the financial for that
week. It is no rule. I said he usually does it. It doesn’t affect the finan-
cial sheet, however, if it is not on there. It doesn’t keep the financial
sheet from being completed. I say he did work on the average sheet on
Saturday because those orders came in that day. I know they could not
have been entered the Thursday before and they were entered in fact Sat-
urday because I had gone over the orders and find that they average the
same thing that he has got on the average sheet. None of these orders
came in the factory before Saturday morning, because they were not
there Friday night when I left. I am sure of that. I have never known

Mr. Frank to leave there on a Saturday with the financial sheet not ready.
He would not go to a ball game unless he had his work up. I heard him
say on Friday afternoon that he was going to try to go to the ball game.
We left there Friday night together. He didn’t go back that night. I
said at the coroner’s inquest that if the data had been gotten up for him
it would take him an hour and a half to two hours. I don’t remember
saying that it would take only two hours and a half for both the data and
the financial sheet. I meant two hours and a half without the data. I
say it would have taken from two and a half hours to three hours to have
gotten it all up. I am not an expert accountant, and I base my opinion
on the reason that I have gone back at the same time and have sat down
with him while he was working and seen him when he was finished. He
couldn’t hurry over the work, and get it correct. I think he could get it
up quicker than I could. I am positive that I said at the Coroner’s in-
quest that he could get it up a half an hour quicker than I. I may have
said so, that was only an estimate. I have never made up a financial
sheet. My estimate of the time referred to Frank doing it. I couldn’t
tell how long it would take to balance that cash. I said at the Coroner’s
inquest between an hour and an hour and a half. It all depends on
whether you balance or not. We keep our little change in nickles, dimes,
quarters and halves, and you have to take the money out of the sack,
stack it up and count it. As to how I remember where I was last Thanks-
giving Day, because I was going to Athens to see the Georgia foot-ball
game. I remember it snowed and I didn’t go. I told Conley and the
office boy to come back and be at the factory. The second reason I re-
member is because of the B’nai B’rith affair which Mr. Frank went to
and I helped him carry his packages to the car. As to my remembering
every Saturday that I have been there for six months previous, I have
never lost a day from the factory since I have been there with the excep-
tion of my vacation. I was with Mr. Frank until half past twelve on
Thanksgiving Day, when I left him at the corner of Mitchell and Ala-
bama, where he caught a Washington Street car. I don’t know what he
did that afternoon. I do know that I remained at the factory every Sat-
urday afternoon since I have been there because I have not lost a day. I
paid off Friday, April 25th. I remember Helen Ferguson coming to the
window and I paid her. I can tell you the names of many more that I
paid off that afternoon. (Witness gives names of eight or ten more he
claims to have paid off). Mr. Frank and Mr. Holloway were there at the
time. It is very dark underneath the chute near the Clarke Woodenware
Company place, and we kept shellac in front of the door there. It is the
door to the left. We did not have boxes piled around there after this
murder occurred. If a body had been shot down there, it would have
been 20 or 25 feet from that door. We go down there every day or so to
get shellac; you don’t have to pass by the opening under this chute. I
never mentioned any indication that anybody had walked around the
chute. I saw the place in the metal department on the second floor where
they said there was blood. It looked like a small spot covered with

white. It looked like blood from a finger being cut. It looked like hasko-
line had been splashed all over the metal department. There was noth-
ing different about that particular spot from any others, except that it
was red. It looked like it had been swept over. As to those steps by the
chute I don’t know that they were nailed up immediately after the mur-
der. Three days after I came up those steps. I don’t remember whether
it was before or after the insurance people made us clean up. I know I
was at the factory on Saturdays and holidays after twelve o’clock. I
change the clock at times if I find that it is not right. We don’t run it
five minutes ahead of time. Every time I look at it it is on time. We do
not have to regulate it often. We regulate it by the whistle in back of us
every day at twelve o’clock. We don’t set it every time we hear the whis-
tle though. We have had unreliable people at the factory. We give them
a trial. I knew that Conley was unreliable a good while ago. Found it
out the first time I ever spoke to him. When we found that we couldn’t
trust him we took him off of the elevator. Mr. Darley and I did it. We
didn’t take it up with Frank. Girls in the factory have told me about his
worthlessness. Miss Carson and others have told me he tried to borrow
money and slip off. She complained to me several times about it, that he
was trifling and didn’t clean up her department, that he didn’t move the
pencils, that he sprinkled on top of the pencils, that he tried to borrow
money. The negroes would come to me and told me that he wouldn’t pay
his debts and slip off. I don’t know whether I ever took these complaints
to Mr. Frank or not. I was not under Mr. Frank. I had authority to fire
him, but I didn’t do it, because in a factory like that it is hard to get a
negro who knows something about it. He was in the chain-gang two or
three times, once he worked on Forsyth Street in front of the building,
and then women would come up to me and try to get money to get him
out, two or three times. That has happened since he has been working
at the factory. I know that he has been in the chain-gang once, when I
saw him working in front of the factory. The times was when women
came up there and tried to get money to get him out. I have seen these
books scattered all over the factory, whole books and parts of books. I
have seen them since this murder. Both before and after. I have seen
sheets sometimes. I knew that Jim could write. I have given him and
the other negroes tablets like this (State’s Exhibit H). They are kept
everywhere in the factory. They would go down in the basement and
write. I did not talk to Frank on Monday or Tuesday about Jim Con-
ley’s peculiar conduct after the murder. I talked to Darley.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

When I stated that it took two and a half hours to three hours to
make up the financial sheet, I meant without any interruptions. We have
quite a few interruptions on Saturdays, salesmen drop in, draymen and
people come in, for their envelopes after we have paid off. When I said
to Mr. Dorsey that he might do the work from 8:30 to 10:30, I had refer-
ence purely to the financial sheet. Making the entries in the house order

book, requisitions and dictating the correspondence, I did not include.
The correspondence and the entries in the requisition book is usually
done in the morning. We usually go to Montag Brothers about 8:30, get
the mall, come right back, acknowledge the orders and answer the corre-
spondence. I have never known Mr. Frank to take up the financial sheet
before the afternoon. After he finished his financial, Mr. Frank would
usually make two copies of the result of it, and send one of them to his
uncle, who is a stockholder and the other to Mr. Pappenheimer, who is
the president. My estimate of the time was two and a half hours for the
financial sheet, and one and a half hours for the other work. Mr. Dor-
sey’s picture (State’s Exhibit A) shows nothing in the Clarke Wooden-
ware Company except the front of it. It has left out every scuttle hole,
and toilet and everything there. It fails to show the door that enters into
the partition to the basement. Hasn’t got either one of these two front
doors. Mr. Frank’s wife frequently did some shorthand work for him
on Saturday afternoons. I have seen her there often when we were be-
hind in our work. The haskoline did not hide the red spots at all. You
couldn’t tell whether it was on top or on bottom of the red. It is nothing
unusual for the white stuff to be spilled all over the metal room. I did
not know that Conley was denying that he could write in the station
house, for quite a while. The Pinkerton men came over to the factory to
find out if he could. I looked all over and found a card where he had
signed a signature for a jeweler for a watch. The detectives found the
information by coming to the factory. The negroes always ate in the
basement. Conley was familiar with the basement. Mr. Dorsey sub-
poenaed me to his office, he subpoenaed some of the others. I think he
phoned to me. Empty sacks are usually moved a few hours after they
are taken off the cotton.
RE-GROSS EXAMINATION.
I had no objection to coming to your (Mr. Dorsey’s) office. I offered
to assist you in any way I could. No, it was not Mr. Frank’s custom to
make an engagement Friday for Saturday evening and then go off and
leave the financial sheet untouched. The pencil factory is three or four
blocks from Montag’s. Some of them are short blocks. Guess it takes
three to five minutes to go over there. I have never timed myself. The
first time on Monday I observed the peculiar behavior of Conley was be-
tween half past seven or eight o’clock, he was sitting in dressing room on
a box. It was after that I went with Detective Starnes to try to locate
Gantt and arrest him. Frank never went to baseball games or matinees
on Saturday. The only pictures that are hanging on the walls of Mr.
Frank’s office is a calendar that Truitt and Sons give away. No, I don’t
know whether the detectives found out elsewhere that Conley could
write. I gave them the information when they came to the factory. It
was on Monday morning that I saw the haskoline and the red spots. If
the blinds had been closed it would have been some darker, not a big dif-
ference.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I have never seen Mr. Frank talk to Mary Phagan.

JOEL C. HUNTER, sworn for the defendant.
I am a public accountant, engaged in the profession ten or fifteen
years. I have examined the financial sheet said to be made by Leo M.
Frank. I examined a copy and then checked it against the original. In
order to find out how long it would take a person to make out these re-
ports, I went through the calculations. I did not make out the sheets. I
verified the extensions and calculations on the financial sheet (Defend-
ant’s Exhibit 2). I found them correct within a decimal. There is one
item a decimal is incorrect. That was immaterial, merely an error in
the calculation. In order to find out how long it would take that report
to be made up, I made an examination, line by line, item for item. I fig-
ured an approximate time it would take to make the various entries if
they had all of the data immediately available, and how long if it was not
immediately available. I put these down in two separate columns and
then struck an average. In my opinion the quickest possible time to make
out this report, balance the cash, make out the comparative statements
and the copies of which they furnished me, I figured 150 minutes. I
don’t think that could have been done in that time except by someone
having experience in it and knowing how to set up these facts and figures.
This would not allow for checking the figures. In my opinion, it would
take from three to three and a half hours to make out this report, balance
the cash, make out the two copies and the comparison of 1912 and 1913.
(Witness then details time it would take in his opinion for each particu-
lar item that has been calculated and entered and how he figured it). In
my opinion it would take a pretty swift man three and a half hours.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
A man’s familiarity with a special class of work will aid materially
in making it up. If he had had to get up the information which was fur-
nished me it would take him a good deal longer than it did me, for the
information was already furnished me. I have allowed for his experi-
ence and familiarity with the business, in the way of saving time, in mak-
ing my estimate. I have tried to make my figures sufficiently conserva-
tive to make allowance for a man in charge of the work. I have tried to
show it done in the quickest possible time. I think it will be wonderful to
make it in less than that. I think a man who could make it out and verify
it as he went along, it would take the whole afternoon.

C. E. POLLARD, sworn for the Defendant.

I am an expert accountant. I was called into this matter for the pur-
pose of seeing the length of time it would take to gather these figures and
get the result on the financial sheet and other papers that were furnished

me. I studied each sheet and when I was sure of what the result would
be I would lay that sheet down and make a copy of it. I would take time
myself for each operation. There was a discrepancy of one and one-half
gross on the factory records in the figures, out of 27651/2 gross, (Defend-
ant’s Exhibit 2). It was an immaterial error. The minimum time that
I could do that work in I found to be three hours and 11 minutes, that
was as quick as I could do it. If I had been interrupted in my work, of
coursb it would have taken me longer. I have been an expert accountant
for 15 or 16 years. The mistake that I found occurred on the Saturday
of the week before. It was not Frank’s mistake, but somebody else com-
piled the figures for that week. There is another trifling mistake under
the head of “value of products, pencils packed” that did not figure the
same as mine. Those are the only two mistakes I found on the whole
financial sheet-a mistake of 50c. and a gross and a half of pencils.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
In making my experiment of how long it would take, I was furnished
with all my data. I didn’t have to get up any of the data. I am consid-
ered rapid in my work. The mistake of one and a half gross occurred on
April 18th and 19th. I don’t know whose mistake it was. Anybody can
work on his books with a great deal more ease than an outsider can. The
mistake I mentioned did not make the other calculations wrong, the other
calculations were all right. The mistake grew out of just one multiplica-
tion. In multiplying 791 gross at 50.1 cents, Frank made the total $396.75,
instead of $396.29.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
In making out this sheet Mr. Frank had to make about 40 multipli-
cations, 160 additions. The mistake is not a serious one.

HERBERT G. SCHIFF, recalled for cross examination.
The books show that $4 was loaned to Arthur White. I made the en-
try in the book. The $2.00 was for what Mr. Frank loaned him that day
and $2.00 loaned him the middle of next week. As to where the entry is
that Mr. Frank lent Arthur White $2.00 these slips are not kept after we
take it off. After the pay roll is made we destroy those. The books show
that this $2.00 was added to the other $2.00. There was approximately
$1,100.00 paid off on Friday on the pay roll. There was about 5 or 6 en-
velopes left over, not called for. The numbers go on different places on
the envelopes. The clocks we have now are the same we had when Gantt
was there. Whenever there was any trouble we phoned for a man to look
after the clock.

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.
Whenever accidents would happen in the factory we would have the
person come to the office, to the outer office, wherd we would bandage
their hands with the few medical supplies we keep there. Then we make
a report to the insurance company as to the cause of the accident and any
witnesses. We always found the clocks kept good time.

MISS HATTIE HALL, sworn for the defendant.

I am a stenographer for the National Pencil Company. I do most of
the work in the office of Montag Bros. Whenever it is necessary I go
down to the National Pencil factory and do work there. I saw Mr. Frank
about ten o’clock of the morning of April 26th, at Montag Bros., when he
came over there that morning. He came in Mr. Sig Montag’s office, where
I was taking dictation and I told him that I didn’t know whether I would
be able to go over there that morning or not, as Mr. Montag was giving
me letters and Mr. Frank said: “Well, come if you possibly can.” He
had previously asked me over the telephone to come over to the factory.
That was about half an hour before he came over to Montag Bros. I
had called him up to get a duplicate bill of lading and in the course of the
conversation, I asked him if he would need me over there that morning,
on account of his having an inexperienced stenographer over there, I had
been going over there all during the month of April on that account. He
said “Please come over, I have some work for you to do.” It was 20 or
30 minutes after that that he came over to Montag’s. When he came in
I told him that I was afraid I couldn’t go over on account of the work I
had to do at Montags, but Mr. Montag finished his dictation in a few min-
utes, and I then told Mr. Frank that I would have time to come over there
and that I would be over there later. I started over to the factory be-
tween 10:30 and 11. I went alone. It takes about five minutes to get over
there and I reached there before eleven o’clock. I don’t know whether
Mr. Frank was there when I got there. I waited in the outer office a few
minutes before I started to work. I went in the inner office to get the or-
ders to acknowledge for Mr. Frank. I acknowledged them for Mr. Frank.
I acknowledged them in the outer office. I do the typewriting in the outer
office. These are the 11 orders (Defendant’s Exhibit 11 to 24, inclusive),
that Mr. Frank handed me and I acknowledged. You notice my initials
on them “H. H.” I put on there “Acknowledged, April 26th, by “H. H.”
Mr. Frank got the orders when he went over to Montag Bros. and
brought them back with him. The acknowledgments are the first step, in
that case. Several people came in while we were working, two men, one
whose son worked there came in and spoke to Mr. Frank about the boy’s
being in some trouble in the police court. They went into the inner office
to talk to him and he came out to the outer office with them. Miss Corin-
thia Hall and Mrs. White also came in there in Mr. Frank’s office and I
talked with him. During this time Mr. Frank was not doing any work on
the financial sheet. I find in this book (Defendant’s Exhibit 12) all of
the eleven orders which I acknowledged that morning, one order seems
to be missing, I just find a requisition sheet for that. I did not enter
those orders on the book. It looks like Mr. Frank’s handwriting. I did
not write any of these requisition sheets. The entering of the requisition
was done after I acknowledged the orders, because when they enter them
the house order number is put on them when they are put in the book and
there was no house orders on them when I acknowledged them. There-
fore, it had to be done afterwards. The requisition sheets are not made
out until they are entered on the house order book and then acknowledged
and then the requisition sheets are made. These eight letters (Defend-
ant’s Exhibit 8) were dictated to me Saturday morning by Mr. Frank
and I typewrote them there in the outer office. After finishing them I
took them in the inner office to him. I did not file these carbon copies, but
left them with Mr. Frank. Throughout the time that I was there that
morning with Mr. Frank he did no work on the financial sheet. As I
was ready to leave the noon whistle was blowing. At that time I was in
the outer office. I went downstairs, and remembered that I had left my
umbrella, went back, got my umbrella and started out. When I pushed
the clock it was 2 minutes past 12. I did not see any little girl come along
about that time.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
The stenographer the pencil company had was inexperienced and
did only about one-third of the work and that’s the reason I had to do the
other. I was getting $12.50 a week on April 26th. I am now getting $15.
When I was first employed they said they would give me a raise on Aug-
ust 1st. I insisted that I be raised on July 1st, but they wouldn’t give it
until August 1st. It was I that called Mr. Frank over the telephone. I
did not insist on going over there. He insisted on my coming. The ac-
knowledgments consisted of stamping orders with a number, putting the
dates down there and acknowledging them by post cards sent to the peo-
ple. Mr. Frank did not leave Montag ‘s with me. He left before I did.
He didn’t know how long it was going to take me to write those letters.
Mr. Montag hadn’t finished dictating to me when I talked to him, so he
did not wait. While I was there in the office, two men and three women
came in. The ladies came after the office boy had left and he said he left
about 11:30. The men were in the inner office with him about five or ten
minutes. I was in the outer office. I started to work typewriting about
two minutes after he finished dictating the letters. I don’t know how
long it took me to write them, I am not a very rapid typist. During the
time I was writing, Mr. Frank was in the inside office, except when he
came out to talk to Mrs. White and came to the door with those men. Af-
ter typing them, I took them into him to sign. He folded the letters and
put them in the envelopes himself. He did not ask me to stay until he
looked over the letters. As to what else there was to be done that day,
from the looks of the papers on his desk he had a good many to dispose
of. He went through them as he was dictating to me, and there were a
good many that he had to get rid of. I was over at the factory the pre-
vious Saturday morning. He was not working on the financial sheet. I

got up for him the number of gross deliveries and the price and made an
average charge of how much each gross would cost. That was a part of
the data necessary for the financial sheet. When I testified before the
Coroner, I thought that was the financial sheet itself, because I had never
seen a financial sheet before. I know now that it was the average sheet. I
transferred some of those things to the average sheet. I never did see
the financial sheet. Mr. Montag gets it. I did not help Mr. Frank on the
financial sheet the previous Saturday. It was the average sheet I helped
him on. I discovered my error as to this being the average sheet and not
the financial sheet soon after the coroner’s inquest. I know that Mr.
Frank was not working on the financial sheet on the Saturday morning
previous to the 26th. He was busy with something else altogether. He
simply gave me that data to work on. I did not identify the financial
sheet at the Coroner’s inquest, I didn’t even know it. I was not in Mr.
Frank’s inner office on April 26th, excepting when I got the orders from
him. When I told the Coroner’s jury, if I did tell them that, I didn’t re-
member being in his inner office at all, I have never been in a court room
before. I was so rattled that I wasn’t exactly myself. Mr. Frank told
me that morning he wished Mr. Schiff would come over and finish the
data, that he couldn’t fix the financial sheet until Mr. Schiff got up the
data, and he had Alonzo Mann telephone him to come over there to do it,
but Mr. Schiff didn’t come while I was there. I said at the Coroner’s in-
quest that I didn’t see Mr. Frank working on any of these books that
day, that I was in the outer office and he was in the inner office. There
wasn’t any such looking sheet as the financial on his desk. When I was
in there he was at work on a pile of letters and things like that.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
When I was first employed at the factory Mr. Nix said to me, “I
will give $12.50 a week, when the busy season opens up, about the first of
August, I will raise it to $15. About the middle of June, I asked him to
raise it on the first of July, but he said, “We will wait until August 1st.”
At that time I testified at the coroner’s inquest, I had never seen any of
the financial sheets. I did not write a figure on that financial sheet. At
the inquest I thought the average sheet was the financial sheet. I told
Mr. Frank that I couldn’t stay longer than 12 o’clock, and he asked me to
stay all the afternoon and help him, that he was busy. I also heard him
ask Harry Gottheimer to come over in the afternoon.

MISS CORINTHIA HALL, sworn for the Defendant.

I work in the finishing up department of the pencil factory. I am a
forelady. I was at the factory on April 26th, I got there about 25 min-
utes to twelve. I had to come to town on the East Lake car and got to
town about 11:30 and it took me about five minutes to reach the factory.
Mrs. Emma Clarke Freeman was with me. She had spent the night with
me. We went there after her coat and to telephone, to call up Mrs. Free-

man’s husband. We went up to the fourth floor to get the coat and then
came down and went in Mr. Frank’s office. It was about 15 minutes to 12
when we left the factory. Mr. Frank was writing when we came in his
office. His stenographer was in the outer office. Mrs. Freeman said she
would like to use the telephone. She used the telephone and then we
went out. During the ten minutes we were there he was talking to two
men between the outer office and the clock. He was dismissing those two
men when we came. Mrs. White and the stenographer were in the office
then also. As we were going up the steps, Mr. Frank called to Mrs. Free-
man to tell Arthur White to come down that his wife wanted to see him.
On the fourth floor we saw May Barrett, Arthur White and Harry Den-
ham. When we left the factory, the following people were still there:
Arthur White, Mrs. White, May Barrett, her daughter, Harry Denham,
the stenographer and Mr. Frank.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
We met Mr. Holloway between Broad and Forsyth Streets as he
came out of the factory as we went in. We met Lemmie Quinn after-
wards at the Greek Cafe. Don’t know what time it was when we came
out, we went to corner of Alabama and Forsyth to use a telephone. It
took us about five minutes to go there and come back to Greek Cafe. We
got a cup of coffee and sandwich and were getting the change when Quinn
came in.

MRS. EMMA CLARKE FREEMAN, sworn for the Defendant.
I married on April 25th. I worked at the pencil factory before that,
at the time I was married. I was paid off on April 25th by Mr. Schiff.
On the 26th I reached the factory with Miss Hall about 25 minutes to 12.
I saw Mr. Frank at his office. He was talking to two men when we went
in. Mrs. White and Mr. Frank’s stenographer were also in the office.
Mr. Frank gave us permission to go up on the fourth floor to get my coat.
While we were going up the steps Mr. Frank called to me to tell Mr.
White that Mrs. White wanted him. We went on up, I got my coat and
came down, and asked permission of Mr. Frank to use telephone in his of-
fice. I used the telephone. I spoke to Mrs. White a few minutes and then
we left, which was about a quarter to twelve. I remember looking at the
clock. When we left, there was in the building, May Barrett, the stenog-
rapher, May Barrett’s daughter, Arthur White, his wife, Harry Denham
and Mr. Frank. We met Lemmie Quinn afterwards in a cafe. He said
he had just been up to see Mr. Frank. (Cross examination waived).

MISS EULA MAY FLOWERS, sworn for the Defendant.

I did not work at the factory on Saturday, April 26th. I worked
there Friday, the 25th, in the packing department. Mr. Schiff got from
me the data for the financial sheet on Friday night at ten minutes to six.

It was the production for the entire week from my department. It covers
all the different classes of work where the goods were finished.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I always turn those reports in Friday night or early Saturday morn-
ing. They don’t touch Friday’s work.
MISS MAGNOLIA KENNEDY, sworn for the Defendant.
I have been working for the pencil factory for about four years, in
the metal department. I drew my pay on Friday, April 25th, from Mr.
Schiff at the pay window. Helen Ferguson was there when I went up
there. I was behind her and had my hand on her shoulder. Mr. Frank
was not there, Mr. Schiff gave Helen Ferguson her pay envelope. Helen
Ferguson did not ask Mr. Schiff for Mary Phagan’s money. I came out
right behind Helen Ferguson. We waited for Grace Hicks and then went
down stairs. Helen didn’t say anything about Mr. Frank at all. We
went down stairs about five minutes to six. We saw Helen Ferguson
start up Forsyth Street.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
On Monday, April 28th, Mr. Barrett called my attention to the hair
which he found on the machine. It looked like Mary’s hair. My machine
was right next to Mary’s. There is a good deal of water over there by
Mr. Quinn’s room. Mary’s hair was a light brown, kind of sandy color.
You could plainly see the dark spots and white spot over it ten or twelve
feet away. Helen and Mary were the best of friends and were neighbors.
Helen made mention that Mary was not there when we were paid off. I
have never noticed any spots around the metal room. That’s the first
time I had ever seen anything like that.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

I have never looked for spots before. It’s a dirty floor, full of oil
dirt. I don’t know whose hair that was. Helen did not ask Mr. Schiff
for Mary’s money. She did not have any business going to Mr. Frank
when Mr. Schiff was there paying off. She did not go in and ask Mr.
Frank for Mary’s money. I left with her. I went one way and she went
another.
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.

Mr. Frank paid off sometimes. If there is any trouble about the
amount of our money, we would go to anybody that was in the office. Mr.
Frank was not paying off that day.

WADE CAMPBELL, sworn for the Defendant.

I have been working for the pencil factory for about a year and a
half. I had a conversation with my sister, Mrs. Arthur White, on Mon-

day, April 28th. She told me that she had seen a negro sitting at the ele-
vator shaft when she went in the factory at twelve o’clock on Saturday
and that she came out at 12:30, she heard low voices, but couldn’t see
anybody. On April 26th, I got to the factory about 9:30. Mr. Frank was
in his outer office. He was laughing and joking with people there, and
joked with me. He thought I wanted to borrow some money. I stayed
about five or ten minutes and left the factory. That was about 9:40. I
have never seen Mr. Frank talk to Mary Phagan. On Tuesday after the
murder I went up on the fourth floor with Mr. Frank. I did not see the
negro Conley talk to him at all that time.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
My sister said she saw the negro when she went in the factory. When
she heard the voices coming out, she was coming down the steps from the
second floor. I saw the spots where they claim was blood, close to the
girls’ dressing room on second floor. I couldn’t say whether it was blood
or not. I deny that I ever said that my sister said she saw the negro on
the box when she came out of the factory. He was sitting on a box be-
tween the elevator shaft and the staircase. That looks like my signature.
I don’t know whether it is or not. Yes, I corrected certain statements in
that paper.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I went to Mr. Dorsey’s office because he subpoenaed me. I thought
I had to obey it. Mr. Starnes and Mr. Campbell and the stenographer
were there. All of them asked me questions. I signed a statement about
twenty-one pages long. I have seen Jim Conley reading newspapers up
on the fourth floor, twice since the murder. It is not unusual to see spots
all over the metal room floor.

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.
Conley was sitting by the elevator when he was reading those papers,
during working hours. The other time he was reading down at the rear
end of the building. It was an extra, but I don’t know what paper it was.
I knew that he could write because I had seen him do it several times,
with pen and ink. I don’t know whether he was making up his report of
boxes, but I have seen him writing. Yes, I have seen spots along the
route from the ladies’ closet to the elevator ever since I have been there.
They have red varnish and red paint and such things like that that look
like blood. I am sure there are spots all around in the metal room, but I
won’t say they look like the spots near the ladies’ dressing room.

LEMMIE QUINN, sworn for the Defendant.
I am foreman of the metal department. Barrett pointed out to me
where he claimed to have found blood spots on the metal room floor. He

asked me whether I thought that he (Barrett) would’get the reward if
Frank were convicted. He told me that several people told him that he
had a good chance to get the reward. He said a fellow told him that he
would get $2,700 one time and $4,500 the other time. He mentioned that
reward to me on several occasions. The floor of the metal room is very
dirty. You could not tell at the alleged blood spots whether they were
varnish or oil. We have blood spots quite frequently when people get
their hands cut. I remember a man by the name of Gilbert was hurt in
that room. He was carried towards the main office by the ladies’ dress-
ing room and sent to the hospital. He bled freely. That was about a
year ago. About eight months ago a boy cut his hand pretty badly and
was carried by the ladies’ dressing room to the main office, right over
the place where Barrett found the blood spots. His hand was bleeding.
About a hundred women work in the factory. Haskoline is scattered all
over the floor of the metal room. That floor has never been scrubbed
since I have been to the factory. I could not tell what color hair it was
Barrett found. There were only a half dozen strands in it. Chief Lan-
ford took it. There is a place in the room where the girls dress their hair
by a little gas jet which they use for heating a curling iron. It was about
ten feet from the lathe where Barrett claims to have found the hair. If
a breeze was blowing from this window from the west it would blow to
where the girls were fixing their hair. The last time I saw Mary Phagan
before the murder was Monday. She left about two o’clock. She left
about two o’clock because we were out of material and she was laid off
for the rest of the week. I have never seen Mr. Frank speak to her. I
went to the factory on April 26th, to see Mr. Schiff. He was not there. I
often go to the factory on Saturdays and holidays. The street doors were
open when I got there. I did not see Mary Phagan, nor Jim Conley, nor
Monteen Stover. The doors to Mr. Frank’s inner and outer office were
open. The time I reached Mr. Frank’s office was about 12:20. I saw Mr.
Frank on Sunday at Bloomfield’s undertaking establishment in the after-
noon. He had on a black suit. On Saturday he had on a brown suit.
There was no blood spots under the machine where Barrett claims to
have found the hair. On Monday Mr. Frank had on a brown suit. There
was no blood at the spot where Conley claims the body of the girl was
found. It was perfectly dry there, there was no water on the floor.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
I noticed the blood spots at the ladies’ dressing room on Monday. I
did not tell Mr. Payne and Mr. Starnes that I was not in the factory on
April 26th. I told nobody that. Mr. Frank is not the first person to
whom I told it. He did not tell me to keep quiet about it until he saw his
lawyer. I did not tell the officers about it. Mr. Frank said he remem-
bered my being at the factory, but did not remember the time. At the
coroner’s inquest I said it was pretty close to 12 o’clock when I got to
Wolfsheimer’s. I don’t think it could have been as early as quarter af-
ter twelve when I got to the factory. As to why I did not tell the officers,

they could have gotten it if they had asked me. I never mentioned it to
Barrett either. I told Chief Lanford on the following Monday that I
was at the factory. I told it to Frank on Tuesday. He said he would
mention it to his lawyers. I told Frank I didn’t like to be brought into it
but if it would help him in any way I would do it. As to whether I would
have mentioned it or not, was up to Mr. Frank. He afterwards told me
that his lawyers advised him to mention it at the coroner’s inquest. That
was Tuesday afternoon. I told you in the statement I gave you that I
could not swear positively as to the time I was at the factory. I said I
got to the pool room between 12:20 and 12:30. I had been up in the fac-
tory before I met Mrs. Freeman and Miss Hall at the Busy Bee. I was
in the office and saw Mr. Frank between 12:20 and 12:25. At that time I
made the statement to you that I was there between 12:00 and 12:25 I
had reckoned the time down as I have now. The back door at the stair-
way going up from the office floor to the top floor is fastened with a bar.
It is not closed except on pay day. It is true that a man at the office door
could easily lift bar and walk up, but a man could not come down to of-
fice floor from above at all. Anybody could fix that bar in its place in
half a minute. I told you in the detective ‘s office that I reckoned the
time of my being in the factory from the time I left home and the desti-
nation I went to, and I said I could not remember the stop at Wolfs-
heimer ‘s which took ten or fifteen minutes, and that is why I reckoned it
so positively. I left home I know at about a quarter to twelve. I looked
at my watch. It takes twelve or fifteen minutes to walk to the factory. I
got to Wolfsheimer’s pretty close to 12 o’clock. I was there ten or fif-
teen minutes.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
At the time the detectives and Mr. Dorsey talked to me about the
murder, I overlooked the fact that I had been to Wolfsheimer ‘s. My wife
called my attention to it when I got home. I mentioned this matter to
my father and my wife before I ever mentioned it to Mr. Frank. Mr.
Frank did not tell me not to mention it to anybody. If a detective had
asked me I would have told him what I knew about it. At the Coroner’s
inquest I said it could have been as early as twenty minutes after 12 that
I got to the factory, because I had reckoned my time down from leaving
home and the number of steps, and I said it must have been between
12:20 and 12:25.

HARRY DENHAM, sworn for the Defendant.

I work on the fourth floor of the pencil factory. I was paid off Fri-
day, April 25th. I came back Saturday to do some work. Mr. Darley
asked me to come back. I had to work on the machinery when it was not
running. That was the only time I could do it. I got there about 7:30.
Mr. Holloway was there when I got there. Between 12 and 1 o’clock I
was working on the varnish machine. We were hammering. We worked

until ten minutes after 3. We began to take an old partition out and put
in a new one about 12 o’clock. It took a good deal of hammering; we
were making a racket up there. May Barrett was the first person to
come upstairs that day. She came about quarter past eleven. Stayed
about three-quarters of an hour. It was after twelve when she left. Mrs.
Freeman and Miss Hall were the next to come upstairs and stayed about
fifteen minutes. They got a coat and went down. Mrs. White came up-
stairs about 12:30 to see her husband. She had a good long talk with
him. She was still upstairs when Mr. Frank came up. He told Mr. and
Mrs. White that he was going to dinner and would like to close the doors.
He stayed up there just long enough to tell us that and then went down-
stairs. Mrs. White went right down behind Mr. Frank. I never heard
the elevator run that day. I was up on the fourth floor all day. I can see
wheels turning on that floor. There were no noises in the factory that
day, excepting street noises. When the elevator stops it makes no noise;
it shakes the floor a little when it stops. You can’t hear anything except
shaking the building when it starts. You can hear the elevator better
when the machinery is not running. If the wheels had been running that
day I could have seen them from where I was. When I left at ten min-
utes after three, I saw Mr. Frank. Mr. White and I came down together.
Before we went out, Mr. Frank came upstairs about three o’clock and
asked was we getting out, and we told him we were getting ready to go
right now. We were washing right then. When we came out we saw Mr.
Frank at his desk in his office writing. Mr. White borrowed $2.00 from
him. He did not look nervous or unusual. You can look down from the
landing on the third floor and see whether anything is being put in or
taken out of the elevator on the office floor. White and I on the fourth
floor could have gone anywhere in the building that day. It was open to
US.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
We were working about 40 feet from the elevator. There were cro-
cus sacks upon the floor where we were working. The first time Mr.
Frank came upstairs was about ten minutes to one. At the coroner’s in-
quest I said I wasn’t certain of the time. The second time he came up
was about three o’clock. We had finished our work and were washing up
and getting ready to go. I am not certain of the time he came up the first
time. I think it was 10 minutes to one. That’s about the time Mrs. White
left. He didn’t say he was going right then. He said he wanted to go
out. The wind was blowing strong that day and slapping the blinds
backward and forward. There were no other noises inside the building.
We stayed up on the fourth floor all day except one time when we went
down about a quarter past eleven to have Mr. Holloway put some pieces
on the band saw. It was a mistake when I told at the coroner’s inquest
that I had not left the fourth floor at all that day. A person could have
gone in the building and gone out and we not have known it. We were
knocking and hammering all the time about midway of the building. It

might have been a good deal of noise on the office floor and we would not
have known it. I said at the coroner’s inquest that Mr. Frank had a
habit of rubbing his hands together. We left Mr. Frank in the factory
when we left there. I saw some spots Monday they said was blood.

MINOLA McKNIGHT (c), sworn for the Defendant.
I work for Mrs. Selig. I cook for her. Mr. and Mrs. Frank live with
Mr. and Mrs. Selig. His wife is Mrs. Selig’s daughter. I cooked break-
fast for the family on April 26th. Mr. Frank finished breakfast a little
after seven o’clock. Mr. Frank came to dinner about 20 minutes after
one that day. That was not the dinner hour, but Mrs. Frank and Mrs.
Selig were going off on the two o’clock car. They were already eating
when Mr. Frank came in. My husband, Albert McKnight, wasn’t in the
kitchen that day between one and two o’clock at all. Standing in the
kitchen door you can not see the mirror in the dining room. If you move
up to the north end of the kitchen where you can see the mirror, you can’t
see the dining room table. My husband wasn’t there all that day. Mr.
Frank left that day sometime after two o’clock. I next saw him at half
past six at supper. I left about eight o’clock. Mr. Frank was still at
home when I left. He took supper with the rest of the family. After this
happened the detectives came out and arrested me and took me to Mr.
Dorsey’s office, where Mr. Dorsey, my husband and another man were
there. I was working at the Selig’s when they come and got me. They
tried to get me to say that Mr. Frank would not allow his wife to sleep
that night and that he told her to get up and get his gun and let him kill
himself, and that he made her get out of bed. They had my husband there
to bulldoze me, claiming that I had told him that. I had never told him
anything of the kind. I told them right there in Mr. Dorsey’s office that
it was a lie. Then they carried me down to the station house in the patrol
wagon. They came to me for another statement about half past eleven
or twelve o’clock that night and made me sign something before they
turned me loose, but it wasn’t true. I signed it to get out of jail, because
they said they would not let me out. It was all written out for me before
they made me sign it.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I signed that statement (State’s Exhibit ” J “), but I didn’t tell you
some of the things you got in there. I didn’t say he left home about three
o’clock. I said somewhere about two. I did not say he was not there at
one o’clock. Mr. Graves and Mr. Pickett, of Beck & Gregg Hardware
Co., came down to see me. A detective took me to your (Mr. Dorsey’s)
office. My husband was there and told me that I had told him certain
things. Yes, I denied it. Yes, I wept and cried and stuck to it. When
they first brought me out of jail, they said they did not want anything
else but the truth, then they said I had to tell a lot of lies and I told them
I would not do it. That man sitting right there (pointing to Mr. Camp-

bell) and a whole lot of men wanted me to tell lies. They wanted me to
witness to what my husband was saying. My husband tried to get me to
tell lies. They made me sign that statement, but it was a lie. If Mr.
Frank didn’t eat any dinner that day I ain’t sitting in this chair. Mrs.
Selig never gave me no money. The statement that I signed is not the
truth. They told me if I didn’t sign it they were going to keep me locked
up. That man there (indicating) and that man made me sign it. Mr.
Graves and Mr. Pickett made me sign it. They did not give me any more
money after this thing happened. One week I was paid two weeks’ wages.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

None of the things in that statement is true. It’s all a lie. My wages
never have been raised since this thing happened. They did not tell me
to keep quiet. They always told me to tell the truth and it couldn’t hurt.

EMIL SELIG, sworn for the Defendant.

I am Mr. Frank’s father-in-law. My wife and I live with Mr. Frank
and his wife. The kitchen in our house is next to the dining room. There
is a small passage way between them. The sideboard in the dining room
is in the same position now, as it has always been. Mr. Frank took break-
fast before I did on April 26th and left the house before I breakfasted. I
got back home to dinner about 1:15. My wife and Mrs. Frank were eat-
ing then. They told me in the morning to come home a little sooner, that
they wanted to go to Grand Opera that afternoon and have dinner a little
earlier than usual, and I came home a little earlier. Mr. Frank came in
after I did, about 1:20. There was nothing unusual about him. No
scratches or bruises about him. He sat down to his meal. The ladies left
us while he was still eating. I don’t know what Mr. Frank did after din-
ner, I went out to the chicken yard. Mr. Frank was still in the hall when
I got back. I laid down and went to sleep. I did not see him when he left.
I saw him about 6:30 that evening. Mrs. Frank and Mrs. Selig had not
yet gotten back. They came in a short while. We ate supper about seven
o’clock. I noticed nothing unusual about him at supper. We finished
supper about 7:25. Mr. Frank sat in the hall and read. A party of our
friends came to the house and played cards after supper. Frank and his
wife did not play. They do not play poker. They play bridge. He was
reading in the hall while we were playing. He came in one time while we
were playing and said he read a story about a baseball umpire’s decision
and he was laughing. Frank answered the doorbell several times that
evening when the guests came. He and his wife went to bed before the
company left, about 10 or 10:30. He came to the door and told us good-
night and went upstairs. His wife went up shortly afterwards. Our
party broke up about half past 11. I did not hear the telephoning early
Sunday morning. I saw no scratches on Frank Sunday morning.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I have never seen the servants move that sideboard. I say it was
about 1:20 when Mr. Frank came home to lunch, because I left town about
1:10. The car reaches our corner between 1:10 and 1:20. I got home a
little after one. About 1:10. Mr. Frank may have laid down and taken
a nap after dinner. I don’t know. I laid down and took a nap. Mr.
Frank was gone when I woke up. I have heard Mr. Frank frequently
call up the factory from his home at night. I talked very little with Mr.
Frank on Sunday when he got back home. I don’t recall any conversa-
tion I had with him relative to the murder. I did not pay any attention
to anything he said about the murder at dinner time. I have no recollec-
tion of telling coroner’s jury that he did not leave before I got up. I
don’t know what I told coroner about talking to Frank that day. I knew
that my son-in-law was superintendent of factory and that a girl was
found killed there and I did not refer to the subject that day. I don’t re-
member saying that Frank didn’t say anything about it when he came
home. I ate dinner with him. I remember stating at coroner’s jury that
Frank came home and didn’t say a word about it all day to me.

MRS. EMIL SELIG, sworn for the Defendant.

I am Mrs. Frank’s mother. Mr. and Mrs. Frank have been living
with us two years. The sideboard is in the same position it always has
been except when we sweep under it. We had lunch on April 26th after
1 o’clock, about ten minutes past one. Mr. Frank came about twenty
minutes past one while we were eating. He sat down with us and ate. Mrs.
Frank and I left before he did. We left about half past one. He was still
eating at the table. After the opera, while we were on the street car,
passing Jacob’s drug store we saw Mr. Frank at about 6:10. I happened
to look up at the clock and saw it was 6:10. We stopped at my sister’s,
Mrs. Loeb before going home. Mr. Frank was there when we got
there. We saw nothing unusual about him. No scratches, bruises,
wounds or marks. We got home about half past six. We sat down to
supper about a quarter to seven. Mr. Frank ate with us. We finished at
a quarter past seven. We played cards that night in the dining room
with a party of friends. Mr. Frank and his wife did not play. They do
not play poker. They play bridge. He was sitting in the hall reading.
Mr. Frank answered the doorbell and let in some of the guests. He came
in once while we were playing cards to tell us about a joke that he had
read about an umpire and he laughed out very heartily. He went to bed
between ten and ten-thirty. He told us all good-night before going. Mrs.
Frank followed a few minutes afterwards. We played cards until about
twelve. I did not hear the telephone ring next morning. It did not wake
me up. I saw Mr. Frank next day about 11 o’clock. I saw no blood spots
or marks or bruises or cuts about him. I think he was arrested on
Tuesday.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I am not mistaken about seeing Mr. Frank about 1:20 on Memorial
Day. We were eating dinner when he came in. Mr. Frank got home
about 11 o’clock Sunday. He told us he had been sent for to come to
town. He spoke of a crime having been committed. I asked him what
had happened. I don’t remember that he told me about the crime. He
did not seem unconcerned about it. I said at coroner’s that I thought he
seemed unconcerned about it. I don’t remember his remarking about
the youth of the girl or the brutality of the crime. He didn’t describe
any wounds. He didn’t give any theory as to how it happened. He was
anxious as to how it happened. I have forgotten what suits Mr. Frank
wore Saturday, Sunday and Monday. I think I said before the coroner
that he wore the same suit Saturday, Sunday and Monday. But I was
mistaken. I don’t remember saying before coroner whether Frank evi-
denced any curiosity or advanced any theory about it or not. I knew he
wore one suit during the week and a different one on Sunday, and my im-
pression was that on that Sunday he wore the same one. I don’t think
Mr. Frank mentioned the name of the girl that was killed on Sunday.
The first that I knew of it was when I saw her name in the paper the
next morning. The subject was mentioned at the dinner table on Sunday.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

My health is bad and I did not care to hear much of the facts of the
crime at the time. I was operated on the next day. Mr. Frank spared
my feelings. These are the clothes Mr. Frank wore on April 26th (De-
fendant’s Exhibit 49).

MISS HELEN KERNS, sworn for the Defendant.

I work for the Dodson Medicine Company as stenographer. My
father works for Montag. I took shorthand under Professor Briscoe
last winter. I have seen Mr. Frank in his factory. I went there with
Professor Briscoe to get a job. I didn’t get the position. I was working
on the 26th day of April for Bennett Printing Company. That day I got
off about 12 o’clock. I then went around in town to the different stores
and did some trading. I had an appointment to meet a girl at 1:15 at the
corner of Whitehall and Alabama Streets, at Jacobs’ Drug Store. About
5 minutes after one I came out of Kress’ Store on Whitehall Street. I
looked at the clock in front of Freeman’s Jewelry Store. I immediately
went to Jacobs’ corner. I had been standing there about five minutes
and I turned around and saw Mr. Frank standing there right up against
the building at the corner of Alabama and Whitehall Streets. I do not
know how long he had been there. That was about ten minutes after one.
After I saw him I waited about ten minutes until my friend came. She
was a little behind time. She came about twenty minutes after one. I

read about this tragedy about the middle of the week. I then recalled
seeing him about that place and told my father.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Yes, there was a large crowd on the street that day. I had been
standing there about five minutes when I turned around and saw Frank.
It was not packed and jammed at that time, not up against the building.
The procession did not come along until almost three o’clock. There was
plenty of room on that corner. I stood there from five minutes after one
until twenty minutes after one. After I met my friend we went back to
Kress’. I did not speak to Mr. Frank. He was standing up against the
building up Alabama Street. It was not real crowded up Alabama Street.
You could not stand in the middle of the sidewalk. I got a clear view of
Mr. Frank. I don’t think he saw me. I don’t think he would have recog-
nized me because he sees so many faces every day he would not know
mine. I had only met him once. I recognized him. I can’t be mistaken
about the time I saw him because I looked at the clock just before I got
there. When my friend met me we went around the corner. The clock
stood twenty minutes after one. Kress’ store did not close at 12, be-
cause I was in there after 12. I am sure of that. I was watching the
clock because I had an appointment at a quarter after one. I left Kress’
at five minutes after one and went down Whitehall Street to Jacob’s cor-
ner. Whitehall Street was badly crowded. It didn’t take me more than
a minute or a minute and a half to walk down to the corner. It was only
a few steps. There was no one standing between Mr. Frank and myself
on Alabama Street.

MRS. A. P. LEVY, sworn for the Defendant.

I live right across the street from where Mr. Frank lives. I am not
a relation of his either by blood or marriage. I saw him get off a car on
Memorial Day between one and two o’clock. I was dressing to go to the
matinee and was watching the cars as they passed to look out for my son
who was late to dinner and saw Mr. Frank get off the car and cross the
street to his home. I had a clock on my dresser and also one in the din-
ing room, and I was hurrying to meet a friend at 2 o’clock, and I wanted
to see a sick friend before going to matinee.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I noticed that Mr. Frank got off at 1:20, because I was looking at the
clock. I was watching the car for my son. I had already had lunch. I
could not wait for him. He tried to get me over the phone but could not
reach me. The reason I knew it was that time I was looking at my clock
and noticing the cars as they passed and my son had not come yet. That
was the only reason I would have noticed it.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

My children on Memorial Day instead of coming home at 12:20 or
12:30, came home at 1:30.
MRS. M. G. MICHAEL, sworn for the Defendant.
I live in Athens. On April 26th, I was at 387 Washington Street at
2 o’clock, at the residence of my sister Mrs. Wolfsheimer. Mrs. Frank
is my niece by marriage. I am no kin to Mr. Frank. I saw Mr. Frank
about 2 o’clock on April 26th. He was going up Washington Street to-
wards town when I first saw him. I remembered it was about 2 o’clock,
because my son David was going to the matinee and he had to leave home
before 2, and he had just left a few minutes when I saw Mr. Frank. I was
on the front porch when I saw him. He came up just to the front porch.
He greeted me and asked me about my people at home. We carried on a
casual conversation. I noticed nothing unusual about him. I noticed no
scratches or marks or any nervousness about him. He walked up Wash-
ington Street to the corner of Glenn and caught the Washington Street
car going to town at Glenn Street. My son Jerome, my nephew Julian
Loeb and my sister Mrs. Wolfsheimer were also there and saw him.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
He had not seen me for several weeks. He didn’t know I was in the
city, and when he saw me there on the porch he came over to speak to me.
387 Washington Street is three doors above Georgia Avenue. I saw him
take the car at the corner of Glenn and Washington Street.

JEROME MICHAEL, sworn for the Defendant.
I live in Athens. I was in Atlanta on April 26th. I took dinner at
Mrs. Wolfsheimer’s residence at 387 Washington Street. I saw Mr.
Frank upon that day between five minutes to 2 and 2 o’clock. I know it
was that time because I had an engagement with a young lady and I had
a watch in my hand most of the time. My brother Dave had just left for
the opera when Mr. Frank came up. When I first saw him he was going
toward the right hand corner of Washington Street and Georgia Avenue,
going up Georgia Avenue. I saw him and called him and when he saw my
mother standing on the porch he came over and spoke to her. He stood
on the steps of the porch, he stood there just a few minutes until the next
car came. I noticed absolutely nothing unusual about him. No scratches,
bruises, marks and no nervousness. He ran up to the corner of Glenn and
Washington Streets and caught the Washington Street car there going
to town.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
I had my watch in my hand about the time I saw Mr. Frank. I prac-
tice law.

MRS. HENNIE WOLFSHEIMER, sworn for the Defendant.

I am the aunt of Mrs. Frank. I live at 387 Washington Street, the
third house from the corner of Georgia Avenue. On April 26th, I saw
Mr. Frank in front of my house. It was about 2 o’clock. We had fin-
ished dinner which we ate at half past one. I was not on the porch when
he came up but I walked out on the porch after he came. I did not see
him catch the car as I was called in the house before he left. I saw noth-
ing unusual about him. No nervousness or bruises or scratches. I saw
no stains on his clothes, no marks or tears of any kind.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

The time is fixed in my mind because we ate dinner at half past one
and we had just finished. I was not looking for any scratches or bruises,
but I certainly would have seen them if they had been there. I was close
enough to him to have seen him.

JULIAN LOEB, sworn for the Defendant.
I live at 380 Washington Street, across the street from the Wolfs-
heimer residence. I am a cousin of Mrs. Frank. I saw Mr. Frank on
April 26th in front of the Wolfsheimer residence. I was there when he
came by. It was between 1:50 and 2 o’clock. He was talking to Mrs.
Michael and Mr. Jerome Michael and was inviting them to attend a meet-
ing of the B’nai B ‘rith lodge on the next day which was Sunday. He was
president of that lodge. He left and walked towards town up Washing-
ton Street towards Glenn. I didn’t see him catch the car.

COHEN LOEB, sworn for the Defendant.
I was on the car with Mr. Frank going back to town on April 26th
after lunch. I caught the car at Georgia Avenue and Washington Street.
He caught the car at Glenn and Washington Street which is one block
nearer town. That was about 2 o’clock. It was a Washington Street car
which goes straight up Washington Street to the Capitol and turns down
Hunter. We sat together on the same seat in the car. Mr. Frank got off
the car about two or three minutes before I did. He got off in front of
the Capitol at about 2:10. The car was blockaded by the crowd which
was watching the parade. Mr. Frank went down Hunter Street. There
was nothing unusual about him. No marks, or scratches or spots on him.
He had on a brown suit and a derby.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Mr. Frank was sitting next to the window. I know Mr. Hinchey. I
did not recognize him as he passed our car in the machine but I recog-
nized his machine. It was going down the street. I recognized it by the

dark color. It passed right in front of the car so close as to hit the car
and that’s what called it to my attention. The top of the machine was
up and the sides were open. The car was a dark maroon color and seats
from four to seven passengers. I don’t know the number of it. I just
saw a dark maroon car. I found out afterwards that it was Mr. Hinchey.
I only noticed that particular automobile because it ran up in front of
the car and the car hit it and nearly turned it over. The accident oc-
curred right at us. There was no jolt to the street car. It was going too
slow. They just came together and scraped.

H. J. HINCHEY, sworn for the Defendant.
I have known Mr. Frank between four and five years. I am mechan-
ical engineer for the South Atlantic Blow Pipe Co. I saw Mr. Frank on
April 26th opposite the main entrance to the Capitol on Washington
Street. I was driving an automobile. He was on the street car coming
down Washington Street going to town. I saw him but did not speak to
him. It was between 2 and 2:15. As to how I knew that was the time af-
ter this matter came up I experimented to see just what time it was I
saw him on the car, and I have gone over my movements just as I did
them on that day, and the first time I experimented I got to the Capitol
five minutes past two, and the second time I got there at eight minutes
past two, and the third time exactly at two o’clock. I came very near col-
liding with the car in front of the Capitol, as I drove around in front of
the Capitol. This car Mr. Frank was on rolled up in front of me. As I
looked up at the car I saw Mr. Frank sitting in the front end of the car.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I saw him only for a moment. I was too much occupied in trying to
get out of the way of cars and vehicles. The crowd was very thick. I
have been to see Mr. Frank once in jail. I mentioned to him that I saw
him that day. Mr. Frank and I were only business friends. We have
had pleasant business transactions and also controversies. I did not go
to jail to talk it over with him. I went there because I had been knowing
him for five or six years and was interested in him, because he was im-
plicated in the case. We were not personal friends, but have had a great
many business dealings with each other and I naturally felt an interest
in this matter.

MISS REBECCA CARSON, sworn for the Defendant.
I work at the National Pencil Co. I have been there over three years.
I work on the fourth floor. I am forelady of the sorting department. I
have from thirteen to fifteen girls under me. At times I have heard the
elevator running when the machinery in the factory was not running. It
makes a noticeable noise. You can notice the vibration of the building
and you can notice the ropes of the elevator running, and you can hear

the cables of the elevator knocking. On Friday, April 25th, I got my pay
about 5:30 from the office. On April 26th I saw Mr. Frank looking at the
parade in front of Rich’s between 2:20 and 2:25. He spoke to me. I saw
him again at ten minutes to three going into Jacobs’ Pharmacy at the
corner of Whitehall and Alabama Street. I looked at the clock at that
time. On Monday morning I said to Jim Conley, “Where were you on
Saturday? Were you in the factory?” He said, “I was so drunk I don’t
know where I was or what I did.” And Snowball, who was standing
there, said, “I can prove where I was. I also overheard a conversation
that he had with my mother when he said Mr. Frank was just as innocent
as an angel; and when my mother said “The murderer will be the negro,
Mrs. White saw sitting on a box at the foot of the stairs,” Jim dropped
his broom quick and didn’t finish sweeping.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

He made that remark to me about 8 o’clock Monday morning and I
went right back and told my mother of it. The elevator makes enough
noise to know it is running. You don’t notice it when the machinery is
running. You wouldn’t know whether it was running or not unless your
attention is directed to it. I had looked at the clock five minutes before I
saw Mr. Frank in front of Rich’s. I had just looked at the clock also be-
fore I saw him going into Jacobs’. I am certain of the times I saw him.
That was the exact time by the clock. I get $10.00 a week. Last time my
salary was raised it was raised in January. There has been no raise
since then. I had heard that some of the sweepers sometimes stay on
Saturday afternoons to sweep. I didn’t know it. I just asked him if he
was there at the factory Saturday afternoon. He never before admitted
being drunk to me before. Nobody suspected Jim of the murder at that
time. I told my mother of it because I tell her everything. I told Mr.
Darley about it. I don’t remember when I told him. It was before Con-
ley was arrested on Thursday. I told Mr. Rosser when he was at the
factory. That was after Jim was arrested. I did not see the red spot in
the metal room on Monday. I didn’t go in the metal room until Tuesday.
I didn’t see it then, because I wasn’t looking at the floor.

MRS. E. M. CARSON, sworn for the Defendant.

I worked at the pencil factory three years. Rebecca Carson is my
daughter. I am a widow. I have seen blood spots around the ladies’
dressing room three or four times. I was at the factory Friday morning.
I left about 12:45. I saw Jim Conley on Tuesday after the murder. He
was sweeping around my table, I said, “Well, Jim, they haven’t got you
yet,” and he says, “NO.” On Wednesday I said the same thing and he
answered the same thing. On Thursday when I said that to him again
he said, “No, I ain’t done nothing.” I said, “Jim, you know Mr. Frank
never did that,” and he says, “No, Mr. Frank is as innocent as you is,

and I know you is.” I said, “Jim, whenever they find the murderer of
Mary Phagan it’s going to be that nigger that was sitting near the ele-
vator when Mrs. White went upstairs.” He laid his broom down then
and went out. I could not believe Conley on oath.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

My daughter and I work on the fourth floor. Mr. Frank was up on
the fourth floor Tuesday between nine and eleven o’clock. Everybody in
the department was around there at that time. I don’t know whether
any of them heard-the conversation between me and Mr. Frank then. I
saw both Mr. Frank and Jim Conley on the fourth floor on Tuesday. I
did not see Mr. Frank whisper to Conley. Mr. Frank never said a word
to any of us about sticking to him. He said it was a deplorable thing lit-
tle Mary being killed. I have seen blood in the dressing room around the
lockers and some around the mirror. I have seen girls up there mash
their fingers on the machines. I have seen blood in the sink in the toilet
room and on the machines where they cut their fingers. I saw a spot as
big as my hand sometime last year on the fourth floor near a garbage
can. It looked like blood to me. I have seen spots about as big as my
finger, different spots up on the fourth floor. I have seen girls once or
twice come in with their fingers mashed come into the toilet room and go
to the sink after they had mashed their fingers. I don’t know when I
heard that Mrs. White said that she had seen a negro sitting on the box.
I think I read it in the paper sometime that week. The big spot of blood
I was talking about was occasioned by the girls whose sickness was on
them. I have never seen Mr. Frank or anybody else have anybody down
at the office at any time drinking beer or doing anything of the sort. I
did not go down and see blood on second floor near dressing room.

MISS MARY PIRK, sworn for the Defendant.

I am one of the foreladies working at the National Pencil Co. I am
at the head of the polishing department. I have been there about five
years. I talked with Jim Conley Monday morning after the murder. I
accused him of the murder. He took his broom and walked right out of
the office and I have never seen him since. His character for truth and
for veracity is bad. I would not believe him on oath.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I suspected Jim as early as Monday April 28th. I did not report it
to Mr. Frank then. I don’t know why I didn’t. I knew that Gantt and
Newt Lee and Mr. Frank had been arrested. Yes, I have never said any-
thing about it to anybody. I suspected Jim because he looked and acted
so different. I told Mr. Arnold and Mr. Rosser about it when they asked
me about it. That was after Jim was arrested. Jim acted very peculiar

but I thought best not to say anything about it. I knew the company was
anxious to get the murderer but I just didn’t mention it. I don’t know
why. I mentioned it to several of the girls standing around, Miss Den-
ham, Miss McCord, Mrs. Johns and several others. I accused Jim be-
fore I saw the blood at the ladies’ dressing room. It was all smeared
over with some kind of white stuff. It covered about two feet in area. I
mentioned it to the girls before Jim was arrested. I am not sure whether
it was before or after. It was after the coroner’s inquest. I have seen
several spots in the factory that looked like that spot many times. All
kinds of spots. I have seen spots before that looked like that. I don’t
exactly know when. My opinion is that Mr. Frank is a perfect gentle-
man. I always found him to be one in my dealings with him. I have
never heard any of the girls say anything about him. I have never heard
of a single thing immoral that he did do in those five years. I have never
heard of his going in the girls’ dressing room. I have never heard of his
slapping them as he would go by. I have never heard Mr. Frank talk to
Mary. I have never heard of the time Mr. Frank had her off in the cor-
ner there when she was trying to go back to work.

MISS IORA SMALL, sworn for the Defendant.

I worked on the fourth floor of the pencil factory for five years. I
saw Jim Conley on Tuesday. He was worrying me to get money from me
to buy a newspaper and then he would come and ask me for copies of the
paper before I would get through reading them. They were extras. He
would even get two of the same edition. He would take it and run over
there and sit on a box by the elevator and read it. He can read all right.
He had on an old Norfolk coat with a belt around it and it buttoned just
as tight around his neck as it could be. Before that he had gone around
there all open and loose and as slipshod as he could be. I could not tell
whether he was wearing a shirt or not because his coat fastened up so
tight. He told me Mr. Frank is just as innocent as I am and he says,
“God knows I was noways around this factory on Saturday.” I didn’t
see Mr. Frank talking to Jim anywhere in the factory on Tuesday. I
have never seen him talk to that nigger in my life. I have never been
down in Mr. Frank’s office after hours, drinking or doing anything wrong
at any time. I have known Conley for two years. His general reputa-
tion for truth and veracity is bad. I don’t know of any nigger on earth
that I would believe on oath.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I would not believe Snowball on oath. I would not believe any nig-
ger. I got a fifty-cent raise in salary about four months ago. I have got
no raise since Mr. Frank has been locked up. It was before this murder
took place. I did not see Mrs. Carson talk to Jim on Tuesday or Wed-
nesday. She worked in one end of the building and I worked in the other.

I saw Mr. Frank and Miss Carson talking on business between eight and
nine o’clock on Tuesday. They stopped right in front of my machine.
Mr. Frank went down stairs and Miss Carson went on back to her work.
He used to come up there frequently. Conley was standing at the eleva-
tor. He was standing with his hand on a truck. He was not sleeping.
He must have seen me and Mr. Frank. Mr. Frank did not see Conley.
When Mr. Frank went down the steps Conley was still standing at the
elevator. Conley was asking me for newspapers all during the morning
every time they would holler” extra.” He would come to me. That was
after Mr. Frank had gone. That continued all day Tuesday and Wed-
nesday. I didn’t buy any extras on Monday. I bought four before noon
on Tuesday. The elevator makes a right smart noise. Shakes the whole
building. Any body in the world can tell it is running if the machinery is
not running; but you can’t notice it much unless you are right close to
the elevator. Some of us went back in the metal room one day to see if
we could see any blood spots. Mrs. Carson and Mrs. Thompson I think
were with us. Curiosity led us down there. We saw where the floor had
been chipped up. Saw something that looked like white face powder
around the chipped up place. Looked like some of the girls had pow-
dered their faces and spilt the powder. There were two or three spots,
some the size of a nickle and some the size of a quarter. The floor was
very dirty all over.

MISS JULIA FUSS, sworn for the Defendant.

I work on the fourth floor of the pencil factory. I have never known
anything wrong or immoral to be going on in Mr. Frank’s office. I talked
with Jim Conley Wednesday morning after the murder. He was sweep-
ing around there and asked me to see the newspaper. As he read it he
kinder grinned. He told me he believed Mr. Frank was just as innocent
as the angels from Heaven. I know his general character. He was never
known to tell the truth. I would not believe him on oath.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I saw the dark red spots by the water cooler in the metal room where
they had chipped up something. Something white was dropped all over
it. The spots did not look like they had been smeared over. Looked like
a plain drop of blood. I think it was paint because there was paint used
there all the time. They asked me soon after the murder about the gen-
eral character of Frank. They asked me if I knew anything against his
character and I told them no. They generally spoke well of him. They
always spoke good of him. I have always heard him spoken of in the
highest terms. I have never heard him accused of any act of immorality
or familiarity with the girls in the factory. Jim Conley got two papers
from me on Tuesday and Wednesday. I bought them. Jim always
seemed to be kind of nervous or half drunk or something. He did not

arouse my suspicions until after he began to read the papers and grin
about them and comment on them. I didn’t see Mr. Frank speak to Con-
ley on Tuesday. Conley was not there. I am sure of that. Mr. Frank
came up there twice, once at 9 and again in 15 or 20 minutes. He came
around to see if everything was in good working order. He spoke to Miss
Carson and Mr. Darley and to a little boy. And then went on down stairs.
He came back in about fifteen or twenty minutes to see if everything was
going on alright. He spoke to Miss Carson again about the work. He
always came upstairs to see if everything was going on all right.

EMMA BEARD (c), sworn for the Defendant.
I am Mr. Schiff’s servant. On April 26th somebody called Mr. Schiff
on the telephone. I answered the telephone. It was about half past ten.
It sounded like a boy’s voice. It said, ” I Tell Mr. Schiff Mr. Frank wanted
him at the office.” Mr. Schiff was asleep at the time. I waked him up
and he said, “Tell Mr. Frank I will be there as soon as I can get dressed.”
And I repeated the message to the boy and told him what Mr. Schiff said.
Then Mr. Schiff went back to sleep again. The same voice called up Mr.
Schiff again about eleven o’clock. Said he wanted Mr. Schiff to come
down to the office. Mr. Schiff told me to tell him he would be there as soon
as he could get dressed and I told him what Mr. Schiff said.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I have been in Mr. Schiff’s house about seven years. On Saturdays
and holidays Mr. Schiff generally sleeps. Sometimes he goes to the fac-
tory when I wake him up. He never gets up unless I wake him. Mr.
Schiff told me sometime afterwards he was glad I did not wake him up
that day. I know it was eleven o’clock when he called up the second time,
because the clock was striking. They didn’t say what Mr. Frank wanted
him for.

ANNIE HIXON (c), sworn for the Defendant.
I am Mrs. Ursenbach’s servant. Mr. Frank called up on the tele-
phone about half past one on April 26th. I told him Mr. Ursenbach was
not in and he said “Tell Mr. Charlie I can’t go to the ball game this af-
ternoon.” I told Mrs. Ursenbach about it.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I have been working for Mrs. Ursenbach two years. Mr. Frank and
his wife came over to Mrs. Ursenbach’s on Sunday after we had break-
fast about nine o’clock. They come over there every Sunday. I didn’t
pay any attention to what they talked about that morning. They were
just laughing and talking like they always do. Yes, he laughed. They
were all laughing together. He wasn’t nervous or excited so far as I

could see. Nothing unusual about him. Don’t know what they were
laughing about.

J. C. MATTHEWS, sworn for the Defendant.
I was at Montag Brothers on April 26th. I saw Mr. Frank in the
office of Montag Bros., in the morning of that day. I couldn’t give you
the exact time. I work at Montag Bros.

ALONZO MANN, sworn for the Defendant.
I am office boy at the National Pencil Company. I began working
there April 1, 1913. I sit sometimes in the outer office and stand around
in the outer hall. I left the factory at half past eleven on April 26th.
When I left there Miss Hall, the stenographer from Montag ‘s, was in the
office with Mr. Frank. Mr. Frank told me to phone to Mr. Schiff and tell
him to come down. I telephoned him, but the girl answered the phone
and said he hadn’t got up yet. I telephoned once. I worked there two
Saturday afternoons of the weeks previous to the murder and stayed
there until half past three or four. Frank was always working during
that time. I never saw him bring any women into the factory and drink
with them. I have never seen Dalton there. On April 26th, I saw Hollo-
way, Irby, McCrary and Darley at the factory. I didn’t see Quinn. I
don’t remember seeing Corinthia Hall, Mrs. Freeman, Mrs. White, Gra-
ham, Tillander, or Wade Campbell I left there 11:30.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
When Mr. Frank came that morning, he went right on into the office,
and was at work there and stayed there. He went out once. Don’t know
how long he stayed out.

M. 0. NIX, sworn for the Defendant.
I am credit man for Montag Bros. and bookkeeper. I have charge of
the bookkeeping and documents and papers of the National Pencil Com-
pany. I am familiar with Mr. Frank’s handwriting. These financial
sheets beginning with May 22, 1912, and ending May 24, 1913 (Defend-
ant’s Exhibit 9), are in Mr. Frank’s handwriting. The eleven items be-
ginning with order No. 7187 running through No. 7197, appearing on
pages 56 and 57 of the house order book (Defendant’s Exhibit 12) are in
Mr. Frank’s handwriting. These entries below that are in Miss Hattie
Hall’s handwriting. I employed Miss Hattie Hall as my stenographer.
Mr. Montag and Mr. Frank had nothing to do with it. I raised her wages
on first of August, because I promised her that when she first came here.
These eleven requisition sheets (Defendant’s Exhibit, 25 to 35 inclusive)
are in Mr. Frank’s handwriting. I saw Mr. Frank on the morning of
April 26th, at Montag’s. He asked me to allow Miss Hattie Hall, my
stenographer, to go over to the factory to assist him as his stenographer

was away and he was piled up with work. And I told him I didn’t think
she should go until she finished Mr. Montag’s mail. He said something
then about her coming over in the afternoon, and I said I didn’t think she
ought to work over there as it wasn’t her work, and I told her not to do it,
but I told her if she got through with Mr. Montag’s mail she could go
over there that morning and help him, if she could assist him in anyway.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I have never seen Frank write any of the documents which I say are
in his handwriting. I have seen him write. I don’t know their system of
doing work down at the factory. This order could not have been received
on April 22nd (Defendant’s Exhibit 27). The signature of H. G. Schiff
on the requisition sheets (Defendant’s Exhibits 25 to 35 inclusive) means
that he checked it when the order was filed. I have been with Montag
Bros. seven or eight years. I don’t know whose handwriting that is
(State’s Exhibit “K”). It looks like Mr. Frank’s, but it is not clear to
me. It is entirely different from his usual handwriting. It is different
from those I have identified positively as Mr. Frank’s, but it is figures on
those, and here it is in the form of a letter. There is no comparison
With a few capital letters you can’t get an idea of a man’s handwriting.
I am not positive that that is Mr. Frank’s handwriting. It might be.
You take this sheet here (requisition sheet) and you can’t get an idea of
a man’s handwriting from this, because everything is figures in here.
His writing might be entirely different if he sat down to write a letter.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

I have never seen a letter written by Mr. Frank. The only writing
of his that I am familiar with are figures and things like that, pay rolls,
writings in requisitions and words that consist largely of abbreviations.

HARRY GOTTHEIMER, sworn for the Defendant.

I am a traveling salesman. I make two trips a year for the National
Pencil Company, from the first of February to the first of April, and
from the first of September to the fifteenth of October. I was at Montag
Bros. around ten o’clock on April 26th. I had come in from my trip on
the road and was writing up my orders. I had been away ten days. Mr.
Frank came in after I got there. I asked him about two important orders
as to their shipments and he replied that he couldn’t tell whether they
had been shipped or not, but that if I would return to the factory with
him he would give me the duplicate invoices and let me see for myself.
I replied that I would not have time to go back, as I had lots of orders.
He says: “If you can’t come now, come this afternoon.” And then he
walked in to Mr. Montag ‘s office, and as he went into the office he said:
“Come up now, or come up after dinner.”

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I saw Frank in his office one Saturday afternoon in the early part of
April about three o’clock. His wife was there doing some stenographic
work for him. Mr. Frank said Saturday morning, April 26th, that if I
couldn’t come to the factory in the morning that I should come in the af-
ternoon. I am sure of that conversation. Miss Hall heard part of it. I
had been in his office on previous Saturday afternoons. I never found
any of the doors locked. He was always working.

MRS. RAE FRANK, sworn for the Defendant.
I am the mother of Leo Frank. I live in Brooklyn. I lived in Texas
three years, where Leo was born. Mr. Moses Frank of Atlanta is my
husband’s brother. I saw him at Hotel McAlpin in New York City on
April 27th and April 28th. The letter that you hand me (Defendant’s
Exhibit 42) I saw on Monday, April 28th. It is my son’s handwriting.
This sheet (Defendant’s Exhibit 43) is a sort of financial sheet. I had
lunch with Mr. Moses Frank at Hotel McAlpin on Monday, April 28th.
His wife read this letter to him in my presence and it was handed to me
afterwards. I also saw that sheet (Defendant’s Exhibit 43) but I did
not understand it. The handwriting on that envelope (Exhibit for De-
fendant, 44) is that of my son. The word “Yondiff” in the letter is He-
brew, meaning “Holiday.”

CROSS EXAMINATION.
The letter was folded exactly as it is now to the best of my recollec-
tion, just in that shape. Mr. Frank has no rich relatives in Brooklyn.
That is my son’s handwriting (State’s Exhibit “K”). It is a photo-
graphic copy. There was another paper included in the envelope which
that letter came in, some price list, but I didn’t look at it. It had num-
bers of pencils and prices on it. That letter was read in Hotel McAlpin,
in Mr. Moses Frank’s room. As to what relatives Mr. Frank has in
Brooklyn, my brother-in-law, Mr. Bennett, is a clerk at $18 a week. My
son-in-law Mr. Stearns is in the retail cigar business. As to what my
means of support are, we have about $20,000 out at interest, my husband
and I, at six per cent. We own the house we live in. We have a $6,000
mortgage on it. The house is worth about $10,000. My husband is doing
nothing. He is not in good health. Up to a year ago he was a traveling
salesman. These are the only relatives my son has in Brooklyn. Mr.
Moses Frank, my brother-in-law, generally spends a Sunday with us in
Brooklyn, before he sails for Europe. He spends Sunday with us in
Brooklyn and has dinner with us. He was not in Brooklyn on April 26th.
He is supposed to be very wealthy. I don’t know how much cash my hus-
band has in bank. A few hundred dollars ponsibly. My husband is 67
years old. He is broken down from hard work and in very poor health.
He was too unwell to come down here.

OSCAR PAPPENHEIMER, sworn for the Defendant.
I am in the furniture business. I am also a stockholder of the Na-
tional Pencil Company. I have been getting comparative sheets as to
the weekly business of the Company from Frank since March, 1910. Up
to the time the Post Office distributed mail on Sunday, I used to always
go to the Post Office to get my mail and always found this report on Sun-
day morning. When I quit going to the Post Office on Sundays I received
the reports in the first mail on Monday mornings. I have here the report
for the week ending April 24, 1913 (Defendant’s Exhibit 45). I got that
on Monday morning, April 28th. I also have here all the comparative
sheets received by me every week beginning January 18, 1912, up to
April 24, 1913 (Defendant’s Exhibit 46).

C. F. URSENBACH, sworn for the Defendant.
I married a sister of Mrs. Leo Frank. I phoned him on Friday and
asked him if he would go to the baseball game Saturday. He said he
didn’t know, he might go and would phone me later and let me know.
On Saturday when I got home about twenty minutes to two my cook told
me that Mr. Frank had phoned and told me that he wasn’t going to the
game. I saw him on Sunday, after the murder, at my house. I saw no
scratches, marks or bruises on him. He seemed to be a little disturbed
in mind. I saw him again that afternoon. He told us about the tragedy.
That evening we met him and his wife coming down Washington street
opposite the Hebrew Orphans’ Home. He gave me my rain coat right
there, which he had borrowed previously.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
He and his wife and my wife and myself generally play cards Satur-
day evening. We were very much interested in bridge and played to-
gether often. Mr. and Mrs. Selig’s family usually played poker Satur-
day night. Mr. Frank and his wife never played poker. I am positive I
rang Mr. Frank up and asked him to go to the ball game. Mr. Frank
called it off about 1:30 on Saturday; when I got home and got the mes-
sage from my cook it was twenty to two. Mr. Frank borrowed my rain
coat at 4:30 on Sunday when it was raining, and I met him about 6 o’clock
on Washington Street, and he returned it. He never had that rain coat
until Sunday afternoon. I am positive that he did not have it on Satur-
day.

MRS. C. F. URSENBACH, sworn for the Defendant.
I am Mrs. Leo Frank’s sister. I received a telephone message for
Mr. Ursenbach from Mr. Frank through my cook on Saturday at half
past one. I saw no scratches, bruises, or marks on Mr. Frank on Sun-
day. He was nervous as one would have been under the circumstances.
He borrowed a rain coat from my husband that afternoon. The rain coat

was at our house on Saturday. It was there when my husband asked him
if he would wear it on Sunday. Mr. Frank did not have it on Saturday.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
On Sunday Mr. Frank when he was at the house told us he had been
called down town and that this little girl was murdered, and he told what
a horrible crime it was. He did not say who committed it. He said noth-
ing about employing a lawyer. He said nothing about how he slept the
night before. I think he told about being at the undertaker’s in the after-
noon. I did not hear him say anything about his visit to the undertaker’s
in the morning. He said he had been taken down to the factory in the
morning by the detectives. He said he had thought he heard the tele-
phone ringing in his sleep, the night before. He said when he saw the
corpse it was a grewsome sight. He said nothing about why he did not
stay in the room and look at the corpse longer or more carefully. He
said nothing about suspecting Newt Lee as being the guilty party. He
said he was sorry he let Gantt in the factory Saturday afternoon, be-
cause he mistrusted him, because he had not been honest. He did not
say he thought Newt Lee or Gantt had committed the crime. He said
nothing about the clock having been improperly punched. I was not in
the room the entire time. I had guests and I was out a good deal of the
time. I don’t know if he knew the name of Mary Phagan then or not. I
think he said she was choked. He didn’t say anything about a cord
around her neck but said she had a frill of her petticoat around her neck.
He mentioned he had paid her off the Saturday before. I don’t know
that he mentioned the name of the girl at all at that time. He said he
had discharged Gantt because he was not honest. I think he said Newt
Lee was a good fellow as much as he knew about him. On Monday night
over at Selig’s Mr. Frank was there and we had a conversation on the
subject. He spoke of having a detective at the house in the morning,
that the detectives thought that he had done it and how strange it was
that they should say so. He didn’t say that he suspected anybody. He
seemed to be calm as usual that night. He never mentioned suspecting
anybody of the crime. On Monday night he said he had been suspected
in the morning by the detectives. That night he sat on the couch and
patted his foot. That was the only indication of nervousness I saw. Mr.
Frank did not have Mr. Ursenbach’s rain coat on Saturday. It was in
our house all day Saturday and until my husband asked him Sunday if
he would wear it.

MRS. A. E. MARCUS, sworn for the Defendant.
I am a sister of Mrs. Leo Frank. I played cards Saturday night at
Mrs. Selig’s. Mr. Frank was there sitting out in the hall reading, and
Mrs. Frank was going in and out of the room. Mr. Frank went to bed
after ten o’clock. I noticed nothing unusual about him, no bruises,
marks or signs.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

He came in one time and told me something funny about a baseball
joke. We were still playing when he went to bed.

MRS. M. MARCUS, sworn for the Defendant.

I am no relation of Mr. or Mrs. Frank. I saw Mr. Frank at half past
eight or a quarter to nine in the evening on April 26th, at Mrs. Selig’s
residence. We played cards there. Mr. Frank opened the door for us.
He stayed in the hall reading. We played cards in the dining room. He
went to bed between ten and half after ten. He appeared as natural as
usual. I left the house about twelve o’clock.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

We had a game of cards every Saturday afternoon at somebody
else’s house.

M. J. GOLDSTEIN, sworn for the Defendant.
I played cards Saturday night, April 26th, at Mrs. Selig’s house. I
got there about 8:15. We played in the dining room. Mr. Frank was sit-
ting in the hall. There was nothing unusual about him, no nervousness
or anxiety. There was nothing that attracted our attention. I have
never known Mr. or Mrs. Frank to play poker. I should say he went to
bed about 10:30. His wife followed about fifteen minutes afterwards.
I never noticed any marks or bruises about his person.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
He came in while we were playing to tell us of some joke he had read,
and we asked him to desist as it was distracting us from the game. Frank
was reading a magazine which caused him considerable merriment and
laughter.

I. STRAUSS, sworn for the Defendant.
I was at the home of Mrs. Selig, Saturday night, playing cards. I
got there about 10:30. Mr. Frank let me in. While we played he was
sitting in the hall reading. I could see him through the door. There was
nothing unusual about him. He went to bed immediately after I got
there. His wife went to bed soon afterwards.

MRS. EMIL SELIG, recalled for the Defendant.
(Witness denies categorically that any of the contents of Minola
McKnight’s affidavit (State’s Exhibit “J”) are true). I have never
raised Minola’s wages one penny since she has been with me.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I didn’t see Albert McKnight at my house on Saturday. He has
been to the house two or three times. I was in bed when Mr. and Mrs.
Frank went down stairs Sunday morning in response to the ringing of
the telephone. Mr. Frank got home about eleven o’clock Sunday morn-
ing and then ate his breakfast. He and his wife went out together. Min-
ola was paid $3.50 a week. I advanced her a week’s wages. I don’t know
what week that was. I didn’t pay her anything the next week. The first
week I gave her $5.00 and told her to give me the change. She brought
$1.00 the next morning, and told me she kept 50 cents which I deducted
the next week. I think Mrs. Frank gave her a hat. I don’t know when
that was. Mrs. Frank has never given her any money to my knowledge.

SIGMUND MONTAG, sworn for the Defendant.
I am engaged in manufacturing stationery. I am treasurer of the
National Pencil Company. The company receives its mail at my office,
which is two blocks from the pencil factory. Frank comes to my office
every day of the year to get the mail and instructions with regard to or-
ders and the business of the factory. He came to my office on April 26th,
about ten o’clock and stayed about an hour. He talked to me, my stenog-
rapher, Miss Hattie Hall, and Mr. Gottheimer, one of the salesman. Up
to about a year ago I went to the factory almost every Saturday after-
noon. Mr. Frank would always be working at his desk on the financial
sheet. The telephone in my house is 20 feet from my bed. I did not hear
it ring Sunday morning. My wife was aroused by its ringing and she
waked me. The man at the other end asked me if I could identify a girl
that was killed in the basement of the pencil factory. I referred him to
Mr. Darley who was most familiar with the help in the factory. After
breakfast Mr. Frank came to my house. It was a raw, chilly morning.
He was no more nervous than we were about the murder when we saw
him that morning. I was very much agitated and trembled. My wife
was very nervous and commenced to cry. I saw no marks, scratches or
discolorations of any sort on his face, and there were no spots on his
clothing. I went to the factory that morning and made a general exam-
ination, including the metal room. We saw nothing on the floor. Frank
was very much nervous and agitated when he told us about the occur-
rence. We have a great many accidents in the metal room. They would
be brought to the front of the building into the office. I heard that about
nine o’clock Monday morning Mr. Frank had been taken to police head-
quarters. I knew that he had a very limited acquaintance there and I
therefore telephoned for Mr. Herbert Haas, my personal counsel and
counsel for the pencil company to go down there. Mr. Haas answered
that he didn’t like to leave home that morning, that his wife was expect-
ing a new arrival, so I sent my automobile after him. Mr. Haas came
back and said he was refused admittance to Mr. Frank at the station
house, and said he was going to telephone Mr. Rosser. He then tele-

phoned for Mr. Rosser. That was between half past ten and eleven. Mr.
Rosser came down to the station house thirty or forty minutes later. I
saw Mr. Rosser go upstairs. About forty minutes later Mr. Black and
Mr. Haas left police headquarters with Mr. Frank. I always received
the financial sheet on Monday morning. Mr. Frank would bring them
over in envelopes. I saw the financial sheet of April 24 (Defendant’s
Exhibit 2) on Monday afternoon about three o’clock. That was after
Mr. Schiff called me over the telephone and asked me if I would sanction
the employment of the Pinkertons to ferret out this crime, and I told Mr.
Schiff to go ahead. I told him and Mr. Darley to help the authorities all
in their power to find out the murderer, whoever he might be.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Mr. Frank was well acquainted with our attorney, Mr. Haas. He
was president of the B’nai B ‘rith. The B’nai B’rith has between four
or five hundred members, I should say. When I say that Mr. Frank had
a limited acquaintance, I meant that the people around police headquar-
ters did not know Mr. Frank. Mr. Frank did not ask for an attorney.
Mr. Schiff told me that Mr. Frank had spoken to him about employing
the Pinkertons. Mr. Frank was very nervous when he was at my house
Sunday morning. He had already been to the undertaker’s. He told me
they had taken him into a dark room and flashed on a light, and he said
he saw the little girl there. He described how she looked. He said her
face was scratched and her eye was discolored, and she seemed to have a
gash in her head. Her mouth was full of sawdust and he described her
in a general way. He did not call my attention to his being nervous. He
did not say anything to me about an attorney or having been to police
headquarters. I don’t know whether he had been to police headquarters
or not. I authorized the employment of the Pinkertons on Monday. I
had not then employed counsel. My sending Mr. Herbert Haas to see
Mr. Frank was not employing counsel. I made no trade with Mr. Haas.
Don’t know who is paying his fee. I have not contributed anything to-
wards it, nor has the Pencil Company. The Pencil Company is employ-
ing the Pinkertons. As to whether they have been paid yet or not, they
haven’t requested their pay. They have sent bills two or three times. I
received the reports from the Pinkertons. They came sometimes every
day and then sometimes they didn’t for a few days. I got the report
about finding the big stick and the pay envelope. I did not request the
Pinkertons to keep the finding of the stick and the envelope from the
police and authorities. We have little accidents almost every two weeks
in the factory. There was one big accident about a year ago, a machin-
ist, Gilbert, had his head bursted open in the metal department. That
was about a year ago. The insurance company ordered us to clean up
the factory about a week after Mary Phagan’s death.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

Superintendent Pierce, of the Pinkertons, told me that his reports
would be furnished to the police before they came to me.

TRUMAN McCRARY, (c), sworn for the Defendant.
I am a drayman on the streets of Atlanta. I work for the National
Pencil Company. I have hauled for them. I have drayed for them most
every Saturday for the past three years. I would work on Saturday
afternoons until half past three and sometimes as late as five. I would
be sometimes there so late the shipping clerk would be gone. I have
never found the front door locked on a Saturday afternoon. I have
never seen Jim Conley watching there Saturday afternoon. I have never
seen him guarding the door. I have never seen him around the factdry
at all Saturday afternoon. I have never found the doors to Mr. Frank’s
inner or outer office locked. Both doors have glass windows in them.
Anybody could see through them. I have sometimes found Mr. Schiff
working there with Mr. Frank on Saturday afternoon. I did not see Jim
Conley at the factory April 26th. I did not tell him to go down in the
elevator shaft and ease his bowels. I went into Mr. Frank’s office about
twelve o’clock on April 26th. Mr. Frank was there.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I did not haul any for the pencil factory on April 26th. I took a sack
of hay there. That was about 7:30. I didn’t see Mr. Frank upstairs
that time. I did not see Jim Conley at all that day. It may have been as
late as 8:30 that I reached the factory that day. Mr. Frank was not
there. I was paid sometime before 12 o’clock that day. The boxes are
piled around in there pretty high around the elevator going down there.
There are some pretty large ones, four or five feet high. They are piled
around the stairway. I have never seen them use that door to the Clarke
Woodenware space. I have used it once to haul out a lot of trash. No I
have never seen Jim Conley sweeping up there Saturday afternoon.
There was one Saturday afternoon that I didn’t go up there. That was
since Christmas. I think it was in April. I went up there every after-
noon in January.

D. J. NIX, sworn for the Defendant.
I was office boy at the pencil factory from April, 1912, to October,
1912. I worked there every other Saturday until the first of September,
and then every Saturday thereafter. I am 19 years old. Before Sep-
tember 1, 1 worked on Saturdays until between four and six o’clock. On
Saturdays after September 1, 1 worked until between 5:30 and 6. I have
never missed any days while I have been at the factory. On Saturday
afternoons, Mr. Frank and Mr. Schiff would be there working. I would

stay in the outer office. I never left the factory on Saturday afternoon.
I have never known Mr. Frank to have any women in his office drinking
or doing anything else.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I never stayed there every Saturday afternoon in the summer
months. Every other Saturday afternoon then I got off at one o’clock.
No, I don’t know anything about Mr. Schiff and Mr. Frank and others
taking women down the alley on Forsyth Street and around the back
door. He did not have any women in the factory when I was there, and
I worked every Saturday after the first of September until the first of
October. In the summer I worked every other Saturday afternoon.

FRANK PAYNE, sworn for the Defendant.
I was office boy last Thanksgiving day at the pencil factory. It was
snowing that day. I am 16 years old. Mr. Schiff and Mr. Frank were
working there in the office that day. Mr. Schiff sent me up on the fourth
floor to straighten the boxes up. Jim Conley was there sweeping. He
left the factory about 10:20. I left about 11. He had finished his work.
I went by the office to get my coat. Mr. Schiff and Mr. Frank were still
working. When I left I did not see Conley anywhere about the door.
For two months I worked at the factory on Saturday afternoons until
3:30 or four. Mr. Schiff and Mr. Frank would always be working in the
office. I have never known him to have any women in there, or see any
drinking going on. I would go to dinner about 1 or 2 o’clock. Mr. Frank
would go about 12:30 to one and get back about three. I would stay in
the inner office all the time. Mr. Schiff sat right across from me in the
inner office. I would go to Montag’s and stay about ten or fifteen minutes.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I quit work at the factory seven or eight months ago to get a better
job. Mr. Schiff was with Mr. Frank every Saturday afternoon I was
there. I never went back at nights. I have never seen any beer bottles
around there. I don’t know whether Jim Conley came back after he left
there at 10:30 on Thanksgiving Day. I saw him go down the stairs. I
did not look for him as I went down. I did not notice him.

PHILLIP CHAMBERS, sworn for the Defendant.
I am 15 years old. I started working for them December 12, 1912,
as office boy, at the pencil factory. I left there March 29, 1913. I stayed
in the outer office. On Saturdays I stayed until 4:30 and sometimes un-
til 5 o’clock. I never left before 4:30 on Saturdays. I would go to dinner
about 1:30 and get back at 2. Sometimes on Saturdays I would be sent
to Montag’s for 15 minutes, to get the mail. I would sometimes go out

to the Bell Street plant to get the pay roll there. I would get back at 12
o’clock. Mr. Frank never did have any women in there. I never
saw any drinking there. I have never seen Dalton come in there. I have
seen Jim Conley sweeping there Saturday afternoon. Snowball would
be in there once in a while. I have never known the front door to be
locked on Saturday afternoon. After a certain time all the sweepers,
including Conley and Snowball, had to leave the factory at noon. Mr.
Darley gave them orders they could not sweep in the afternoon. After
that I never saw any of them around there Saturday afternoon. I have
never seen anybody watching the door on any Saturday that I was there,
or any other day. I have seen Mr. Frank’s wife come to his office once.
Mr. Schiff would be helping him on some of the Saturdays that I would
be there. I have never seen Mr. Frank familiar with any of the women
in the factory. I have never seen him talk to Mary Phagan at all.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Mr. Frank and I were good friends, just like a boss ought to be to
me. I don’t know anything about Mr. Frank’s telling Conley to come
around and not let Mr. Darley see him.

GODFREY WEINKAUF, sworn for the Defendant.
I am superintendent of the Pencil Company’s lead plant. Beginning
with July, 1912, up until the first week in January, 1913, I visited the of-
fice of the pencil factory every other Saturday, between three and five
o’clock. I would stay there about two hours. I would find Mr. Hollo-
‘way, Mr. Frank and Mr. Schiff there. I never saw any women in the
office there.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
I never saw Jim Conley there at the factory on Saturday afternoon.
I am sure I saw Holloway there on Saturday afternoon.

CHARLIE LEE, sworn for the Defendant.
I am a machinist at the pencil factory. I remember an accident to
Duffy in the metal room. His finger was hurt on the eyelet machine,
about October 4, 1912. It bled freely and the blood spouted out. There
was a lot of the blood on the floor. He went down the hall to the office, by
the ladies’ dressing room. There was blood at that point. Gilbert also
got hurt in the metal room last year. He was bandaged in the office also.
In going from the metal room to the office, you go right by the steps.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I have been with the company two years and four months. Two
weeks ago my wages were raised 2.5 cents an hour. Mr. Darley raised
them. I have not talked to anybody about what I was going to swear in
this case. I did not see Gilbert get hurt up there. I saw him after he
was dressed. Duffy was hurt in the metal room on the machine opposite
Mary Phagan’s machine. The pencil company took a written statement
from me, signed by me, to keep the fellow from suing the company. I
saw my signature this morning. I have never told you I signed that
statement. The blood was streaming from his finger and dropped all
over the floor. The whole floor was bloody. He came out down the hall
to the office. He stopped about in front of the dressing room, about three
steps from the water cooler and asked me which office to go in. The blood
was streaming from his finger while he was standing there, about eight
or ten seconds. It dropped just in one place, holding his hand like this.
It wasn’t cleaned up, they only sweep the floor once a week, that’s all the
cleaning it gets. I never noticed it after that time. I have never taken
any notice whether you can see that blood there now. Duffy was cut
right near where those chips were taken up on the floor. It might have
been the same place. It was right near there. I wouldn’t say it was the
same spot or not.

ARTHUR PRIDE (c), sworn for the Defendant.
I worked on the second floor of the factory. On Saturdays I work all
over the factory, doing anything that is necessary. Beginning with July
of last year I have not missed a single Saturday afternoon at the factory.
I would work until about half past four. I have never seen any women
come up there and see Mr. Frank, or any drinking going on there, or seen
Jim Conley sitting and watching the door. The employees used the back
stairs leading from the metal room to the third floor. You can hear the
elevator running if the machinery is not running. It makes a roaring
noise and you can hear it on any floor. The motor makes a noise, and
you can see the wheels moving on the fourth floor. I know Jim Conley’s
general character for truth and veracity; it is bad. I would not believe
him on oath. I wouldn’t believe him on oath, because him and his whole
family lied to me.
CROSS EXAMINATION.

I never associated with Jim. No, I ain’t a high-class nigger, but I
am a different grade from him. He had three or four watches and I
bought one and I made him show me a receipt marked paid in full, and
he sold me the watch and after that they come and got him to put him in
jail about it, and then his whole family came and said if I would give the
watch back, that they would pay the debt, and I gave the watch back and
after they had released him, the family just said they done that to get the
watch and they were done with it, and there wasn’t any way for me to get
it, but he swore to me it was paid in full. I haven’t heard anything else
said against him. I never paid any special attention to the elevator dur-
ing business hours, but you could hear it all the time when the factory

wasn’t running. It didn’t shake the building. You could hear the eleva-
tor when the wind blows. You could hear the elevator if the machinery
wasn’t running even if they are hammering.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I haven’t missed a single day in five years, that I have been working
with the factory. Yes, I say that Jim Conley forged a receipt on me for
a watch. I let him have $4.50 on it, and I never got my money back.

DAISY HOPKINS, sworn for the Defendant.
I am a married woman. I worked in the factory from October, 1911,
to June 1, 1912. I worked in the packing department on the second floor.
Mr. Frank never spoke to me when he would pass. I never did speak to
him. I’ve never been in his office drinking beer, coca-cola, or anything
else. I know Dalton when I see him. I never visited the factory with
him. I never have been with him until I went to his house to see Mrs.
Taylor, who lived with him then. That was the only place I have ever
seen him. I never have been to the factory on Saturday or any other day.
I never introduced him to Mr. Frank. There isn’t a word of truth in
that. I have never gone down in the basement with this fellow Dalton.
I don’t even know where the basement is at all. I have never been any-
where in the factory, except at my work.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I have never been in jail. Mr. W. M. Smith got me out of jail. Some-
body told a tale on me, that’s why I was put in jail. I don’t know what
they charged me with; they accused me of fornication.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I never was tried. I never had to pay anything except my lawyer’s
fee, which I paid to Mr. Win. Smith. I never was taken to court.

MISS LAURA ATKINSON, sworn for the Defendant.
I have been in Mr. Dalton’s company three times. I never met him
at the Busy Bee Cafe. I have never walked with him to or from the pen-
cil company. I have never walked home with him.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I worked at the National Pencil factory two days last month. I have
known Mr. Dalton six months. I have been in his company three times.
I did not know Daisy Hopkins.
MRS. MINNIE SMITH, sworn for the Defendant.
I work at the pencil factory. I do not know C. B. Dalton. I live at

148 S. Forsyth Street. I have never met Dalton or walked home with
him. I don’t know the man. I know Mr. Frank. I have spoken to him
six times in the four years and a half that I worked there.

CROSS EXAMINATION WAIVED.

V. S. Cooper, W. T. Mitchell, 0. A. Nix, Samuel Craig, B. L. Patter-
son, Robert Craig, Ed Craig, T. L. Ambrose, J. P. Bird, J. H. Patrick and
I. M. Hamilton. All sworn for the defendant. Testified that they lived
in Gwinnett or Walton county; that they used to know C. B. Dalton be-
fore he left Monroe in Walton county; that his general character for
truth and veracity is bad, and that they would not believe him on oath.

R. L. BAUER, sworn for the Defendant.
During the summer of 1909 and 1910, I worked at the National Pen-
cil Company on Saturdays. Since that time I have worked off and on at
the factory on Saturdays doing extra work. I have also been up to the
office Saturday afternoons, frequently during the past twelve months. I
was there while Mr. Schiff was off on his trip. I was up at the office on
the Saturday afternoon before Mr. Schiff went away. Mr. Holloway,
Mr. Schiff, Mr. Frank and the office boy were there. I have never seen
any women in Mr. Frank’s office on the Saturdays I have been there.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I have always found Mr. Schiff there on Saturday afternoons with
the exception of the time when he was off on his trip during January and
February. The only specific Saturday afternoons that I remember being
at the factory, was the Saturdays during the month of January, 1913,
when Mr. Schiff was off on the road. Got to the factory at three o’clock
on the first Saturday in January. I went through the front door of the
factory. It was unlocked and the door was open. Mr. Holloway was on
the second floor in his usual place. Mr. Frank was in his office sitting at
his desk. I didn’t see any stenographer. I stayed there until nearly four
o’clock. I have been to the factory on an average of two Saturdays every
month. On the second Saturday in January, I got to the factory at three
o’clock. Mr. Frank, Mr. Holloway and the office boy were there. The
front door was open. The inside door was open. Mr. Frank was at his
desk, in the inside office. I stayed there about a half or three quarters of
an hour, about half past three or a quarter to four. I talked to Mr. Frank
about ten minutes, and the rest of the time I just noticed things around
the office. I saw Mr. Frank at the factory the third Saturday in January
I was there. I don’t know who else was there. I went to inquire about
Mr. Schiff who was in the Ohio flood. Mr. Frank was in his office. I re-
member seeing Mr. Frank in his office on the fourth Saturday in Janu-
ary I called there. He was working in his office. I don’t remember see-
ing anybody else there.

GORDON BAILEY, (c) sworn for the Defendant.
I work at the factory. I am sometimes called” Snowball.” I never
saw Jim Conley talk to Mr. Frank the Friday before the murder. I have
never, at any time, heard Mr. Frank ask Conley to come back on any Sat-
urday. I have never seen Mr. Frank bring in any women into the fac-
tory. I have never seen Jim Conley guarding or watching the door. I
have seen Jim take newspapers and look at it, but I don’t know if he read
them or not. I have seen him have papers at the station house like he
was reading them.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I was arrested Monday, April 28th, about half past nine. I saw Mr.
Frank before I was arrested. He was on the second floor.

HENRY SMITH, sworn for the Defendant.
I work at the pencil factory in the metal department. I work with
Barrett. He has talked to me about the reward offered in this case. He
said it was $4,300, and he thought if anybody was to get it, he was to get
it, because he found the blood and hair, and he said he ought to get the
first hook at it. He said it six or seven different times.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
He would come out of the room counting it off on his hands. He did
that 2 or 3 times and sort of laughed, counting that imaginary money.

MILTON KLEIN, sworn for the Defendant.
I saw Mr. Frank last Thanksgiving evening at a dance given by the
B’nai B’rith at the Hebrew Orphans’ Home. I also saw him that same
afternoon between half past four and six o’clock. The dance lasted from
eight to half past eleven. Mr. Frank helped Mr. Copelan and myself
give the dance. We were the committee in charge.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I was down at the jail to see Mr. Frank when the detectives brought
Conley down there. I sent word down that Mr. Frank didn’t care to see
Conley, that he didn’t care to see anyone at that time. He knew that Con-
ley was there. I was the spokesman for Mr. Frank. He wouldn’t see
any of the detectives either. Mr. Frank said that he would see Conley
only with the consent of his attorney, Mr. Rosser. He said for them to
send and get Mr. Rosser. Frank’s manner was perfectly natural. He
considered Conley in the same light that he considered any of the city
detectives. He said he would not see any of the city detectives, or Mr.
Scott without the consent of Mr. Rosser. He considered Scott as work-
ing for the city. He included Scott with the rest of the detectives. Mr.

Frank looked very much disappointed because the grand jury had just
indicted him when he had expected to be cleared. Mr. Frank has a great
many friends who constantly visited him in jail.

NATHAN COPLAN, sworn for the Defendant.
I remember last Thanksgiving Day was a very disagreeable day. I
don’t remember whether it snowed. The B’nai B ‘rith is a charitable or-
ganization here composed of young men. They gave a dance out at the
Jewish Orphans’ Home Thanksgiving evening. Mr. Frank had charge
of it. Mr. Frank and his wife were there. I got there about 8 o’clock.
They were there at that time. They stayed there until about 10 o’clock.
JOE STELKER, sworn for the Defendant.
I have got charge of the varnishing department at the pencil fac-
tory; about sixty people work under me. I saw the spot that Mr. Barrett
claimed he had found in front of the young ladies’ dressing room. It
looked like some one had some coloring in a bottle and splashed it on the
floor. Chief Beavers asked me to find out whether it was varnish or not.
I saw the white stuff on it. It looked like a composition they use on the
eyelet machine or face powder. They carry that stuff around in buckets
in the metal room. It gets spilled on the floor and looks something like
face powder. The spots look like some varnish. The floor in the metal
room is swept once a week. It is never washed. The spots look as if it
had been made three days before. I would not have noticed it had not
my attention been called to it. The floor is a greasy one. The white stuff
looked like it come from the eyelet machine. The alleged blood spots
could have been made with a transparent red varnish. If it is that kind
of varnish it will soak in and look something like blood. If it is pigment
it will show up right red. They use this kind of varnish in bottles in the
metal room. I tried a stain on the floor there and it looked just like that
spot that Barrett found. Everybody was nervous and shaky on Monday.
The varnish I experimented with soaked in the floor and looked the same
as the blood spot. I have seen paint all over the floor, it splashes out of
the bucket and they just sweep it up. I was at the undertaker’s Sunday
afternoon at two o ‘clock when Frank was there. Mr. Quinn, Mr. Ziganke,
Mr. Darley and Mr. Schiff were there. I looked at the body with Mr.
Ziganke. No one else was present. I have known Jim Conley about two
years. His general character for truth and veracity is very bad, there-
fore, I would not believe him on oath.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
Frank came from Brooklyn. I am no kin to Mr. Frank or any of his
people. I do not belong to his society. I have never heard anything said
against Conley, except since Frank was indicted. I also heard he was in
the chaingang. I saw him in the chaingang on Forsyth Street. I saw
him with shackles on. I don’t know what he was sent up for. I sent him

out for 25 cents worth of beer and he filled it half full of water and he de-
nied doing it. I could tell it was filled up by the taste of it. I know he
did it because he had a suspicious look about him. That was last sum-
mer. Ziganke helped me drink beer. That’s about all the drinking I
have ever seen there. At the undertaker’s Mr. Frank had on a dark suit
of clothes. He had no raincoat with him. We went to the undertaker’s
for the purpose of seeing the body. Mr. Frank did not ask me to meet
him there. I went in to view the body and then came out. Mr. Frank
came there ten minutes after we got there. While we were in there Mr.
Frank had come and was speaking to Mr. Darley. I don’t know how long
I was sitting there. I was too nervous to know. I felt nauseated and
nervous before I went in to see the body. When I went in to view the
body Mr. Frank was standing outside talking with Mr. Schiff and Mr.
Darley. Mr. Frank went in to view the body later on, ten or twenty or
thirty minutes later. I was sitting down waiting for the rest of the men
while he went there. Ziganke was sitting with me. I don’t know whether
Mr. Frank went in the room to see the body or not. Mr. Frank was ner-
vous when he got there, and when he came out just the same. Just the
same expression he has got on his face now. The room was full of peo-
ple when Mr. Frank went in there. I went down to the undertaker’s to
see who was murdered. I did not know that she had already been iden-
tified as Mary Phagan. I only heard when I got to the undertaker’s. I
didn’t see the impress of the cord on the neck. I just took one look and
then came right out again. I saw the discoloration of the eye and that
bruise and I sort of felt sick and I walked right out.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I am a German and I am accustomed to drinking my beer. I have
never trusted Jim Conley after he put water in my beer.
HARLEE BRANCH, sworn for the Defendant.
I work for the Atlanta Journal. I had an interview with Jim Con-
ley on two occasions. On May 31st, he told me he didn’t see the purse of
this little girl. He said that it took about thirty-five minutes after going
upstairs until he got out of the factory. He said he finished about 1:30
and then went out. He said that Lemmie Quinn got into the factory
about 12 o’clock and remained about 8 or 9 minutes.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I am sure about his saying he saw Lemmie Quinn at the factory at
that interview. He was in jail when I had that interview. It was a few
days after he went through the factory. As to Conley’s movements at
the factory, I was there a few minutes after twelve. Conley arrived there
about 12:10 or 12:15. The detectives told him what he was there for.
After a few minutes brief conversation, Conley started telling his story.
When he reached the point at the rear left side of the factory, he de-

scribed the position of the body, and described what he did with the body,
and how Mr. Frank helped him. He enacted the whole story and talking
all the time. After he had reached the point of disposing of the body, and
writing the notes, I found it was time for me to go back to the office and I
left. Conley began the enactment of the story a few minutes after he got
there, which was a quarter past twelve, and he went through very rap-
idly. We had to sort of trot to keep behind him. I left the factory at
1:10. In estimating the time Conley devoted to acting and how much to
telling the story would be a guess. There is no way of disassociating the
time between the two. I didn’t attempt to do that. It would be a pure
guess because I see no way of dividing the time. I should say that per-
haps he was talking and not acting for about fifteen minutes. Of course
he was talking all the time that he was acting. I did not say that I
thought he was talking half of the time.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
In going through his performance he walked very rapidly. We were
almost on a trot behind him. I was at the factory fifty minutes while he
enacted his story. I left him after he had written one note in Mr. Frank’s
office. He wrote the note very rapidly. It took him about two minutes.
He didn’t stay in the wardrobe over a minute. He just got in, closed the
door and got right out. In approximating the time of his performance I
gave a minute to his staying in the wardrobe and two minutes to writing
the one note. If you add six minutes to writing the other notes and eight
minutes to the time he said he stayed in the wardrobe, that would be four-
teen minutes added to the fifty minutes, which would be sixty-four min-
utes for the time of the performance. If you deduct the fifteen minutes
which I say he was taking, would leave forty minutes net which he took
to enact the story.
RE-GROSS EXAMINATION.
That is just an estimate. The only time I had was the time I left my
office and the time I got back. Conley got to the factory at 12:15 and I
left there between 1:05 and 1:10. I saw Conley pick up a paper in the
newspaper room and he looked like he was reading it. It had pictures
on the front page and I judge he looked at them first, because afterwards
he folded it. He had several minutes while I was telephoning.

JOHN M. MINAR, sworn for the Defendant.
I am a newspaper reporter for the “Atlanta Georgian.” I visited
George Epps Sunday night, April 27th. I went there to ask him and his
sister when was the last time either of them had seen Mary Phagan.
George Epps and sister were both present. I asked them who had seen
Mary Phagan last, and the little girl Epps said she had seen her on the
previous Thursday. George Epps was standing right there and he said
nothing about having seen her Thursday. He said he knew the girl, that

he had ridden to town with her in the mornings occasionally when she
went to work. He said nothing as to having seen the girl on Saturday
and coming in on the car with her. I directed my questions to both the
children.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
I was not seeking evidence for the defendant. There was no defend-
ant at that time. This was on Sunday, the day the body was found. I
have been working under the direction of Mr. Clofein, city editor. Clo-
fein visited Frank in jail. At that time Mr. Frank had not been men-
tioned in connection with the case at all. At the time of the interview
with the little girl and the little boy they were both in the room with their
father. Their father took me out there.
W. D. McWORTH, sworn for the Defendant.
I am a Pinkerton detective. I worked for fifteen days on the Frank
case. For three days I took statements from the factory employees and
on May 15th, I made a thorough search of the ground floor. I found near
the front door on the ground floor, stains that might or might not have
been blood. All the radiators in the factory had trash, dirt and rubbish
behind them. Behind one of the radiators near the Clark Woodenware
place, where the partition is, I found much trash, behind the trap door,
up against the partition, and on top of the radiator were pipes and about
eight or nine length of that rope that they tie pencils with. One length-
the only one that came loose-was pulled straight away from the radia-
tor and I saw signs of it having been cut recently with a sharp knife.
Among the trash I found papers there dated February, 1911. That rub-
bish had been there some time, because the rest of the floor around there
was clean. About six or eight inches from the left side of the radiator,
there was a small pile of dirt and sweepings. When I took Mr. Whitfield,
another Pinkerton detective, back there to show him the spots I had
found, we looked behind the radiator and as I was sticking my hand
around the dust and dirt, I discovered a pay envelope. (Defendant’s
Exhibit 47). It was covered with granulated dust. I opened it and
looked at it and saw the number 186 there. And the first initials of the
name an “M” and a”P.” I handed it to Whitfield and said: “Take it
to the door and see what it is.” It was pretty dark in there. Right in
the same corner, I also found a club (Defendant’s Exhibit 48). It was
standing up on the doorway with some iron pipes. The club is used by
the drayman as a roller to roll boxes and barrels on. The iron pipes
there were used for the same purpose. The stains on the club were either
paint or blood, I don’t know which. I found this little stick back of the
front door. (State’s Exhibit “L”).
CROSS EXAMINATION.
I saw the spots in front of the ladies’ dressing room. It just looked
as if the floor had been stained. There are half a dozen places. There

was no difference in appearance between the dark spots by the water
cooler and the other spot in the metal room. I did not make any special
search on the office floor for a pay envelope. I was looking for the mesh
bag under the instructions of Mr. Scott. Mr. Whitfield joined me in the
search. In my report to the Pinkertons I reported that I found what I
took to be blood stains around the trap door. They were dark discolora-
tions. There were seven of them, averaging about seven inches in diam-
eter. The gas was turned on and I used matches in examining them. I
had found the stains first and while Mr. Whitfield and I were back there
looking behind the radiator, we found the cord and twine about the ra-
diator. Whitfield was examining stains when I picked up envelope which
was all rolled up. I found envelope about 3 o’clock on May 15th, within
8 or 10 inches of the trap door. The name was written in lead pencil. So
far as I know the envelope has not been changed any since I saw it last.
I did not see any “5” on the envelope. We went out to see Mr. and Mrs.
Coleman on May 17th, and showed them the envelope. There was no
“5” on it at that time. There was no conversation about any five. I had
talked to Mr. Schiff before I saw Mr. Coleman. In my report I stated
that the stains might have been blood as well as stains. I reported the
finding of this club to the police 17 hours after finding it. And within
four hours thereafter, I had a conference with them about it. I never
showed that whip to anybody (State’s Exhibit “L”). I didn’t show it
to Mr. Black. I showed him the club and the envelope. I turned them
over to Mr. Pierce, the superintendent of our agency. I don’t know
where he is, nor Whitfield either.

JOHN FINLEY, sworn for the Defendant.
I was formerly master machinist and assistant superintendent of
the pencil factory. I have known Mr. Frank about five years. His char-
acter was good.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I am now superintendent for Dittler Bros. They are not related to
the Franks. I left the pencil company about three years ago. I have
never heard anything about women going up in the factory after work
hours. Mr. Frank and I usually left together about six o’clock. Mr.
Frank went to lunch usually about one o’clock. I would sometimes work
at the factory all Saturday afternoon. I did that most of the time that I
was there. The elevator box was kept closed when I was there. I gen-
erally kept one key and we kept one key in the office. The rule was to
lock it and keep one key in the office. It has been left unlocked. The ele-
vator doesn’t make much noise that I know of. It doesn’t shake the
building; not when I was there. The wheels on the top floor are closed
in on the fourth floor. You might be able to see them on the fourth floor
if you stand on the west side of the elevator. They didn’t make any
noise. The power box don’t make any noise.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
The motor makes a tremendous noise. You can hear it and the
shafting anywhere in the building.

A. D. GREENFIELD, sworn for the Defendant.
I am one of the owners of the building occupied by the Pencil Com-
pany on Forsyth Street. I have owned it since 1900. When we bought
the building it was occupied by Montag Bros. They used it as a manu-
facturing plant. The Clarke Woodenware Company sub-leased part of
the first floor from Montag Bros. They used the front door on Montag
Bros. in going in there. We have not put in any new floor on the second
story of the building. I have known Mr. Frank four or five years. His
character is good.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
I have come in contact with Mr. Frank in business and I have heard
my associates talk about him. I have seen him twenty or thirty times
during the past five years. I have not contributed anything to any fund
for his defense. I have not heard of any such fund.

DR. WM. OWENS, sworn for the Defendant.
I am a physician. I am also engaged in the real estate business. At
the request of the defense I went through certain experiments in the pen-
cil factory to ascertain how long it would take to go through Jim Con-
ley’s movements relative to moving the body of Mary Phagan. I kept
the time while the other men were going through with the performance.
I followed them and kept the time. Mr. Wilson of the Atlanta Baggage
Co. also kept time with me. Mr. Brent and Mr. Fleming enacted the per-
formance. The performance enacted was as follows: “12.56 o’clock,
Conley goes to cotton box from elevator stairs, gets a piece of cloth,
takes cloth back to where body lay and ties it just like a person that was
going to give out clothes on Monday, ties each corner, draws it in and
ties it, ties the four corners together, and runs right arm through cloth,
went to put it up on his shoulder and found he couldn’t get it up on
shoulder, it was too heavy, and he carried it that way on his arm, when
close to little dressing room in the metal department, he let the body fall;
he jumped, and he was scared and said: “Mr. Frank, you will have to
help me with this girl, she is heavy;” Frank comes and runs down from
the top of the steps, and after he comes down there he caught her by the
feet, and Conley laid hold of her by the shoulders, and when they got her
up that way, they backed, and Frank kind of put her on Conley, Frank
was nervous and trembling, too, and after walking a few steps, Frank let
her feet drop; then they picked her up and went to the elevator and sat
her on the elevator, and Frank pulled down the cords, and the elevator
wouldn’t go, and Frank said: “Wait, let me go in office and get the key;
and Frank goes in the office and gets a key and comes back and unlocks

the storage box, and after that he started the elevator down; the elevator
went down to the basement, and Frank said, “Come on,” and he opened
the door that led direct to the basement in front of the elevator, and car-
ried it out and laid her down, and Conley opened the cloth and rolled her
out on the floor, and Frank turned around and went on up the ladder, and
Conley carries the body back to where the body was found; Conley goes
around in front of the boiler, and notices her hat and slipper and a piece
of ribbon; and Conley said: “Mr. Frank, what am I going to do with
these things ?” and Mr. Frank said: “Leave them right there ;” and
Conley threw them in front of the boiler; Conley goes to the elevator,
and Frank come on up and stepped off at the first floor, and Frank
hits Conley a blow on the chest which run him against the elevator; Frank
stumbles out of elevator as it nears second floor, Frank goes and washes
his hands, and comes into the private office, and they sit down in the pri-
vate office, Frank rubbing his hands on the back of his hair; Frank hap-
pened to look out of the door, and said: “My God, there is Emma Clarke
and Corinthia Hall;” Frank runs back; Frank says: “Come over here,
Jim, I have got to put you in this wardrobe;” Frank puts Conley in
wardrobe; Conley stayed there quite a while; Frank: “You got in a
tight place;” ‘ Conley: “Yes, sir;” Frank: ” You did very well; ” Frank
goes in the hall and comes back and lets Conley out of the wardrobe;
Frank made him sit down; Conley sits down; Frank reaches on table and
gets a box of cigarettes and matches, takes out cigarette and match,
and hands Conley box of cigarettes; Conley lights cigarette, and com-
menced smoking, and hands Frank back box of cigarettes; Frank
puts cigarettes back in his pocket and takes it out; Frank: “You
can have these;” Conley reaches over and takes box of cigarettes
and sticks them in his pocket; Frank: “Can you write?” Conley:
“Yes, sir; a little bit;” Frank takes out his pencil and sits down;
Conley sits down at table; Frank dictates notes, Conley taking paper that
Frank gave him; Conley writes one note; Frank says; “Turn over and
write again;” Conley turns over paper and writes again; Frank: “Turn
over again;” Conley turned over again and writes on next page; Frank:
“That is all right.” Frank reaches over and gets green piece of paper
and tells Conley what to write; Conley writes, Frank then lays it on his
desk, looks at Conley smiling and rubbing his hands, runs his hands in
his pocket and pulls out a roll of bills; Frank says: “There is $200.00.”
Conley takes the money and looks at it a little bit; Conley: ” I Mr. Frank,
don’t you pay another dollar when that watchman comes, I’ll pay him
myself.” Frank: “All right, I don’t see what you want a watch for,
either; that big fat wife of mine, she wanted me to buy her an automo-
bile, and I wouldn’t do it; (pause) I will tell you the best way. You go
down in the basement; you saw that package that is on the floor in front
of the elevator; take a lot of that trash and make up a fire and burn it.”
Conley: “All right, Mr. Frank, you come down with me and I will go.”
Frank: ” There is no need of my going down there, and I haven’t got any
business down there.” Conley: “Mr. Frank, you are a white man and

you done it, and I am not going down there and burn it myself.” (Pause).
Frank: “Let me see that money.” Frank takes money and puts it in his
pocket. Conley: “Is this the way you do things?” (Pause). Frank
turned around in his chair, looks at money, and looks back at Conley, and
throws his hands and looks up. Frank: “Why should I hang, I have
wealthy people in Brooklyn.” Conley: “Mr. Frank, what about me?”
Frank: “It is alright about you, don’t you worry about this thing; you
must go back to your work on Monday, like you have never known any-
thing, and keep your mouth shut, if you get caught, I will get you out on
bond and send you away.” Conley: “That is all right, Mr. Frank.”
(Pause). Frank: “I am going out home; can you come back this even-
ing and do it?” Conley: “Yes, sir, I am coming to get my money.”
Frank: “Well, I am going home to get my dinner now; you come back
here in about forty minutes from now; it is near my dinner hour and I
am going home to get my dinner;” picks up money. Conley: “How will
I get in?” Frank: “There will be a place for you to get in all right, but
listen, if you are not coming back, let me know, and I will take these notes
and put them down with the body.” Conley: “All right, I will be back
in forty minutes.” Conley looks at Frank, Frank looks up. Then Con-
ley gets up and stands by chair and looks down at Frank; Frank grabs
scratch pad from typewriter table and starts to make memorandum up-
on paper, but his hand trembles so he couldn’t; Frank gets up to go.
Frank: “Now, Jim, you keep your mouth shut, do you hear?” Conley:
“All right, I will keep my mouth shut, and I will be back here in forty
minutes.” Conley goes out. It took us eighteen and a half minutes by
the watch to go through the movements and conversation (as above set
forth), which Conley says took place between him and Frank on Satur-
day, April 26th. The experiment was made as rapidly as the dialogue
could be read. The eighteen and a half minutes did not include the eight
minutes that Conley said he was in the wardrobe and also the time it took
him to write the notes. Including the eight minutes he remained in the
wardrobe and the ten minutes estimated for writing the notes, the whole
performance would have taken 361/� minutes.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
We started the experiment at the entrance of Mr. Frank’s office at
the top of the stairs. We had the copy of Conley’s movements and the
conversation in our hands all the time. Mr. Haas and Mr. Wilson read
the directions. Mr. Brent took the part of Conley. As they would read
out the things that Conley did, Mr. Brent would do them. I went with
him all the time. I don’t think the giving of the directions lengthened
the time very much, because the directions were being given while the
enactment of each scene was going on. It wasn’t done slowly and delib-
erately. When they dropped the body those knots did not come untied.
The sack that they carried, to represent the body, contained wet sawdust
and cinders, and was supposed to weigh 107 pounds. It was tied up
tigbh There was only one point in the enactment where there might

have been a loss of time, and that was where Mr. Frank was supposed to
have paused in the office, and I suppose five or ten seconds were lost
there. Mr. Fleming took the part of Mr. Frank. When they took the
body down on the elevator, Mr. Brent, representing Conley, opened the
cloth and rolled the corpse out on the floor, on the cloth, then dragged her
back to where the body was found. Mr. Brent dragged it back. He sim-
ply picked up the sack by the end and pulled it along. He dragged the
sack with the enclosed sawdust weighing about 107 pounds, back. Mr.
Brent enacted everything that was supposed to have been done by Con-
ley. Mr. Fleming played the part of Mr. Frank. Neither one of these
gentlemen are connected with the pencil factory. In putting the cloth
around the corpse I think they actually gained time. They did it really
faster than it could have been done. Mr. Herbert Haas did most of the
reading of the directions. There were no feet hanging out of the sack like
the body would. As to whether it isn’t much easier to handle the sack as
it was than it would be to handle a human body in a sack, with the head
and shoulders and arms exposed at one end and the feet and the legs up
to the knees exposed at the other, I believe you could pick up a body just
as quickly as you could a sack. Corpses are pretty hard to handle. Flem-
ing acted nervous and agitated like Frank was supposed to have done.
He didn’t tremble. I think he gained time there. In picking her up and
putting her on the elevator I think they did that fully as quickly as a per-
son could have taken a body, probably faster. I don’t think Mr. Fleming
really unlocked the elevator box like Mr. Frank was supposed to do it.
He went through the motion. It probably takes longer to actually unlock
it than it would to go through the motion of doing it. He probably gained
time there. In going down the elevator, I think Mr. Schiff ran the ele-
vator. He was in the building when we got there and let us in. He ran
it because none of the rest of us knew how to run it. He brought us back
up again in the elevator. That’s the only part he took in the perform-
ance. Mr. Brent, impersonating Conley, carried the body out of the ele-
vator. He is a large man and had no trouble carrying 107 pounds. What-
ever the instructions called for we followed to the letter. Mr. Wilson
and I had the paper in our hands and checked Mr. Haas as he read the
directions. These directions furnished us were supposed to be Conley’s
testimony on the stand. It was furnished to us as a copy of the evidence
as given by Conley. When we got to the basement I am not sure whether
Mr. Brent impersonating Conley, carried the body or dragged it. It
could be dragged as quickly as it could be carried. I had my eyes on the
paper all the time. Mr. Brent didn’t get in the wardrobe, he was too big.
He went to wardrobe and we eliminated the time he was supposed to be
there. A small man could have got in it. They did not write out the
notes. We eliminated that also. Staying in the wardrobe and writing
the notes was not included in the eighteen and a half minutes it took. It
was said that Conley’s testimony was to the effect that he was in the
wardrobe eight minutes. The notes were supposed to have taken from
12 to 16 minutes to write, but we didn’t add that in our estimate. Mr.

Wilson and I set our watches together when the performance started.
The only thing that we omitted from the entire performance was wriiing
the notes and concealing Conley in the wardrobe. Yes, I wrote that let-
ter. I wrote it partially at the instance of myself, and partially at the
instance of Mr. Leonard Haas, my personal attorney.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I wrote that letter as a matter of conscience. It is as follows: “To
the Grand Jury of Fulton County, W. D. Beattie, foreman. Gentlemen:
Among a number of people with whom I have discussed the unfortunate
Phagan affair, I have found very few who now believe in the guilt of Leo
M. Frank, and I have felt a deep conviction growing in my heart that a
terrible injustice might be inflicted upon an innocent man. While we
are all still mystified by the published evidence now at command, I am
impelled by a sense of duty to ask that you carefully weigh the testimony
of all persons connected with the crime, and the accumulating evidence,
and if further indictments are warranted, that the Honorable Body, of
which you are the foreman, will not hesitate to find them. If I am ex-
ceeding the privilege which perhaps might be accorded citizens in thus
addressing your Honorable Body, it is your privilege to ignore what I
have said. Whatever may be your conclusion in the matter, I wish to
assure you in thus addressing you, that I am discharging a duty which
has weighed heavily on my conscience, the performance of which I could
not forego. I do not even know Mr. Frank, and have no personal inter-
est in the case whatever. Very truly, your fellow-citizen, William
Owens.” The pantomine that we enacted at the factory was the story
as told by Jim Conley on the stand.
ISAAC HAAS, sworn for the Defendant.
I know Leo M. Frank for over five years. His character is very
good. I did not hear my telephone ring on Sunday morning, April 27th.
My wife heard it. The telephone is twenty-two feet from my bed.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
My wife waked me up when she answered the telephone.

A. N. ANDERSON, sworn for the Defendant.
I work at the Atlanta National Bank. That is the original pass-
book of Leo M. Frank (Defendant’s Exhibit 50).

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I don’t know that that’s the only bank account that he had. He may
have had others. Yes, the pencil company does business with the At-
lanta National Bank. I don’t know anything about how much money
they had on April 26th. Mr. Frank’s bank book was balanced August”,

11th. These are all the checks that he drew (Defendant’s Exhibit 51)
during April.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
These cancelled checks are the ones that have been paid since April
1, 1913. Mr. Frank had drawn no others since then.

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.
On the first of April he had $111.13, on the 18th of April he depos-
ited $15.00. That is all he deposited that month, and these checks were
drawn against that $111.13 and $15.00.
R. P. BUTLER, sworn for the Defendant.
I am the shipping clerk of the Pencil Company. I am familiar with
the doors leading into the metal room. They are wooden doors, with
glass windows. There is no trouble looking through these windows into
the metal room, even when the doors are closed. The glass in the door
is about fifteen inches by eighteen inches. Any one of ordinary height
can see through them easily.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
The doors are six feet wide together. The passageway from the
elevator back to the metal room is ten feet wide with the exception of
that part where we have some boxes piled up, where it is about six feet
wide. The boxes go to the ceiling on the one side. It is not particularly
dark there. I measured thO width of the metal room doors. They were
six feet wide exactly from jamb to jamb. The doors are usually open. If
any one came up the stair case and turned to the office, they could see
through the metal room doors. The floors of the metal room are very
dirty. I don’t know if the windows are clean, but you can see through
them.
I. U. KAUFFMAN, sworn for the Defendant.
I made a drawing of the Selig residence on Georgia Avenue, in this
city, showing the kitchen, dining room, the reception room, parlor and
passageway between the kitchen and dining room. The mirror in the
dining room is in the sideboard as shown on the plat (Defendant’s Ex-
hibit 52). It is fourteen feet from the kitchen door to the passageway in
the dining room and the passageway is a little over two feet. Standing
in the back door of the kitchen room against the north side of the door,
I could not see that mirror, because of the partition between the passage-
way and the dining room. On the south side of the kitchen door you
would have less view than on the north side and could not see the side-
board wherein the mirror is located at all. It is 175 feet from the Selig
home to the corner of Washington and Georgia Avenue and 271 feet
from the Selig home to corner of Pulliam Street and Georgia Avenue, as

shown on the plat (Defendant’s Exhibit 53). I made a plat of the Na-
tional Pencil Company plant on Forsyth Street (Defendant’s Exhibit
61). The page one of this plat is the basement. Page two is the first
floor; the dimensions of the elevator shaft are six by eight and back of
the trap door, as shown on the plat, is a ladder going to the basement.
The size of the trap door is 2 feet by 2 feet and 3 inches. It is 136 feet
from the elevator shaft to the place where the body of the young lady is
said to have been found, and 80 feet from the front of the elevator shaft
to the trash pile and 90 feet from the elevator shaft to the boiler, and 116
feet from the elevator shaft to the colored people’s toilet. It is 135 feet
from the elevator to the back stairway. The chute as shown on the page
2 of the plat is five feet wide and 15 or 20 feet long. It empties upon a
platform in the basement about eight or ten feet from the back steps and
about 32 feet from where the body is said to have been found. The back
door is 165 feet from the elevator and the total length is 200 feet. I saw
no furniture, except a bunk with old dirty sacks, which were very filthy.
The floor of the basement is dirt and ashes. The trash pile is 57 feet
from where the body was found and it is 21 feet from where the body was
found to the colored toilet, and 42 feet from where the body was found to
the back door. The angle from the colored toilet to where the body was
found is 43 degrees and the partition in the basement cuts off the vision.
I should say that it would cut off about half of the body. It is very dark
in the basement. These diagrams are accurate, made according to accu-
rate instruments. On the first floor there is an open areaway, extending
to the west end of the building. It has a door about five feet wide. There
are two toilets in this open areaway, about 90 feet from the front. This
part of the first floor is directly above where the young lady’s body was
found. The size of the packing room is shown on page 2 of the plat, is
about 33 by 80. The inner office of Mr. Frank is 121/2 by 17�. When the
safe is open, you can see nothing from the inner office to the outer office,
or the outer office into the inner office, unless you stand up, and the safe
is about 41/2 feet high. A person five feet and 2 inches tall could not see
over the safe. There are no shades in the windows and a person on the
opposite side of the street could look into the office. It is 150 feet from
Mr. Frank’s desk to the dressing room. There is no view from Mr.
Frank’s desk to the stairway to the first floor. Looking from Mr. Frank’s
desk towards the clocks you can see about one-fourth of the east clock.
You can not see the bottom of the stairway which leads from the second
to the third floor. The doorways in the metal rooms are about six feet
wide. They have glass in them. It is ten feet from the door to this dress-
ing room. It is 26 feet from the dressing room to the place marked
“lathe,” and 37 feet from the lathe to the point where Conley said he
found the body. It is 19 feet from the place where Conley found the
body to the ladies’ toilet.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
There are ashes and cinders along the walk in the basement. Mr.
Schiff showed me the point where the body was found. I made every
calculation from the point that Mr. Schiff showed me. I made my dia-
grams within the last month. About two feet of the wall prevents seeing
from the desk in Mr. Frank’s office to the stairway. You can only see a
part of the east clock and doesn’t take in the west clock at all.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
There will be no difficulty about one person going down the scuttle
hole back of the elevator.

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.
If the Washington Street car had passed the nearest corner, it
would be at Pulliam and Georgia Avenue.

FURTHER EXAMINATION.
Sitting near the back door, he could not see the mirror.

FURTHER EXAMINATION.
I do not know what the arrangement was in the Selig home on
April 26th.
J. Q. ADAMS, sworn for the Defendant.
I am a photographer. I took photographs of the Selig home at 68 E.
Georgia Avenue from the inside and the outside of the back door, looking
toward the passageway that leads in the dining room. The door into the
dining room was open, for me. This view (Exhibit 62) is view made
from the outside of the rear door. I was about three feet outside of the
door. The picture does not extend to the mirror, or the sideboard. You
could not see them from the outside. This (Exhibit 63 for Defendant) is
a photograph taken standing directly in the door. You could not see the
mirror with the naked eye or in the picture. The following are views
taken at the pencil factory: (Defendant’s Exhibit 64) is a picture of the
safe, showing a view of the safe, standing just inside of the door of the
office, looking toward the inner office. (Defendant’s Exhibit 65) is an-
other view of the safe and office made standing in door. You could not
see any part of Mr. Frank’s desk in inner office, or a man sitting at desk,
or a telephone or a window. (Defendant’s Exhibit 66) is a photograph
taken on the outside of the outer office, looking toward the inner office,
with the safe door open. You could not see into the inner office, to Mr.
Frank’s desk, or a man sitting there. (Defendant’s Exhibit 67) shows
the pay window. (Defendant’s Exhibit 68) shows foot of the elevator
shaft, showing the rubbish and barrels in and adjacent to the elevator
shaft. (Def.’s Ex. 69) shows basement looking to back door to elevator
shaft. (Defendant’s Exhibit 70) represents the corner of the place where
the body was found, the body being found just about the left corner, be-

hind the partition. (Defendant’s Exhibit 71) shows the exit to the back
door of basement. (Defendant’s Exhibit 72) shows the entrance on the
street floor. The elevator is behind the partition on the right of this
photograph. (Defendant’s Exhibit 73) shows the elevator and trap door
and stairway on the first or street floor. (Defendant’s Exhibit 74) shows
the place where Conley says he found the body. The (Defendant’s Ex-
hibit 75) shows the place where the cotton sacks were kept. (Defend-
ant’s Ex. 76) is a view of plating room. (Def.’s Ex. 77) is a view of
the metal. room showing where the floor was chipped by the detectives in
front of the dressing room. On the left is the ladies’ dressing room.
(Defendant’s Exhibit 78) shows the lathe. (Defendant’s Exhibit 79)
shows a view from the third floor looking to the second floor. You can
see a man walking from the metal room towards the elevator, just as is
shown in this picture. (Defendant’s Exhibit 80) shows the elevator box
on the second floor. (Defendant’s Exhibit 81) shows the wheels at top
of the fourth floor. (Defendant’s Exhibits 82 and 83) show views of
the metal room. (Defendant’s Exhibit 84) shows the doors of the metal
room. These doors have glass in them. They do not lock. You can push
them together, but the locks do not match. (Defendant’s Exhibits 85 and
86) show the metal closet with the door open and closed. All these photo-
graphs are fair representations and are as accurate as a photograph can
be. I have had 20 years’ experience. A slight change in the mirror would
have made the corner of it visible and would have thrown part of the
room in view.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
The mirror could be turned so as to see a reflection in the hall.
These photographs were made about a month ago. Sitting in the back
door you could not see very near the mirror at the Selig residence.
T. H. WILLET, sworn for the Defendant.
I am a pattern maker. I made the pattern of pencil factory from a
blue print. This is the model (Exhibit 13 for Defendant).

CROSS EXAMINATION.
The height of the floors is not made according to scale. The floor
plan is a correct representation, according to the blue print. The win-
dows in Mr. Frank’s office were not put in by me.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I was given no instructions except to follow the ground floor plan as
shown on the blue print. This is the blue print (Defendant’s Exhibit
87), from which I made the model.
C. W. BERNHARDT, sworn for the Defendant.
I am a contractor and builder. This (Defendant’s Exhibit 52) fairly

represents the back porch of the Selig home, as well as the first floor of
the house. Standing in the kitchen door you can’t look through the pas-
sage way and see into the mirror. If you move up a little distance you
can see about 18 inches of the mirror. You could see nobody sitting on
the south side of the table in the dining room, or on the north side of the
table, in fact you can not see the table at all, or the door leading from the
dining room to the sitting room. Sitting in a chair against the jamb of
the kitchen door, you could not see a man in that mirror. You would
have to be a foot or more inside of the door before you get any view of
the mirror at all.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Taking a point between the door and the back porch and a point
about the pantry you could see about half of the mirror. The floor in the
dining room showed that this furniture had been standing in the same
position for some time. You coud see the top of a man’s head if he were
sitting at the table. If the mirror were turned you might get a view. It
depends on the angle of reflection. It is easy to move the furniture. The
mirror is rigid in the furniture.

H. M. WOOD, sworn for the Defendant.

I am the Clerk of the Commissioners of Roads and Revenues of
Fulton County. Standing in the back kitchen door of the Selig residence
that enters on the back porch and undertaking to look into the dining
room, I could not see the mirror in the corner of the dining room at all.
Moving up into the kitchen, near the passageway, I could see nothing but
but top of one chair by looking in the mirror.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

The view that I could get of the mirror would depend upon where I
stood in the kitchen. I can only speak from the conditions that existed
as I saw them as to the arrangement of furniture.

JULIUS A. FISCHER, sworn for the Defendant.

I am a contractor and builder. I looked at the house of the Selig’s
at 68 E. Georgia Avenue. Standing in the kitchen door, I had very little
view of the sideboard. You could see possibly an inch in the mirror. You
can get no view from the mirror. The test was made sitting down and
standing up. The mirror is four feet high from the floor. You could get
no view of the dining room table, nor see a man sitting at the table. The
mirror is fixed straight up and down. The view you get depends on the
angle of the mirror. If properly adjusted you might see a man standing
up.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I had the mirror turned around, but I couldn’t see anything. The
mirror was too high from the floor. I don’t know what the conditions
were on April 26th.
J. R. LEACH, sworn for the Defendant.
I am division superintendent of the Ga. Ry. & Power Co. I know
the schedule of the Georgia Avenue line and the Washington Street line.
The Georgia Avenue line leaves Broad and Marietta on the hour and
every ten minutes. It takes two minutes to go from Broad and Marietta
to the corner of Whitehall and Alabama. It takes 12 or 13 minutes to
run from Broad and Marietta to the corner of Georgia Avenue and
Washington Street, about ten minutes from Whitehall and Alabama to
Georgia Avenue and Washington Street. The Washington Street car
leaves Broad and Marietta two minutes after the hour and every ten min-
utes. It gets to the corner of Whitehall and Alabama Streets in two
minutes and it takes ten minutes from Whitehall and Alabama to Wash-
ington and Georgia Avenue and ten minutes from Glenn and Washing-
ton Streets into center of the city.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
The men come in ahead of the schedule time. I suspended a man
last week for coming in ahead of time. It happens that cars come in
ahead of time. You sometimes catch the men in ahead of time when
they are going to be relieved. It isn’t a matter of impossibility to keep
the men from coming in ahead of time, but we do have it. The English
Avenue line is a hard schedule. It frequently happens that the English
Avenue car cuts off the River car, and the Marietta car. I have seen the
English Avenue car cut off the Fair Street car, which is due at five after
the hour.

K. T. THOMAS, sworn for the Defendant.
I am a civil engineer. I measured the distance from the intersection
of Marietta and Forsyth Streets to the pencil factory on Forsyth Street.
It is 1,016 feet. I walked the distance, it took me four and a half minutes.
I measured the distance from the pencil factory to the intersection of
Whitehall and Alabama; it is 831 feet. I walked the distance and it took
me 31/2 minutes. I measured the distance from the pencil factory to the
corner of Broad and Hunter; it is 333 feet. I walked it in a minute and
three quarters. I walked at a fair rate.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I could have walked it more rapidly and made it in three minutes.
A man would have to walk slower than I walked to take him 6 minutes to
go from Marietta and Forsyth to the factory.

L. M. CASTRO, sworn for the Defendant.
I walked from the corner of Marietta and Forsyth Streets to the up-
stairs of the National Pencil factory on S. Forsyth Street at a moderate
gait. It took me 41/� minutes. I walked from the same place in the pen-
cil factory to the corner of Whitehall and Alabama Streets, and it took
me three minutes and twenty seconds. I walked from the corner of Hun-
ter and Broad Streets to the same place in the pencil factory and it took
me one minute and a half.

PROF. GEO. BACHMAN, sworn for the Defendant.
Prof. of Physiology and Physiological Chemistry Atl. Col. Phys. &
Surgeons. Bomar says it takes 4 hours and a half to digest cabbage.
That’s for the cabbage to pass from the stomach into the intestines.
The gastric digestion takes 4 hours and a half. That is the time it is
supposed to be in the stomach. More digestion occurs in the small intes-
tine. The pancreatic juice helps digestion mostly in the small intestine.
It consists of water in organic salts of which sodium carbonate is the
most important, and a number of ferments. The ordinary time that it
takes wheat bread to pass out of the stomach is not less than three hours.
The time for a meal consisting of cabbage cooked for about an hour and
wheat biscuit to pass out of the stomach depends a great deal upon the
mastication of the food. The times given above have reference to the
most favorable conditions. If the cabbage is not well chewed it would
take considerably longer. It is impossible to tell exactly how long. There
is no regular rules about how long such substances as cabbage and wheat
bread will be found in a person’s stomach. It depends upon too many
different factors. Even in a healthy normal stomach the digestion might
be arrested or retarded at any stage, as by strong emotion such as fear
and anger or violent physical exercise, or in the state of mastication.
The pyloris prevents passage of food to the intestines except when it is
liquid and when there is free hydrochloric acid in the stomach. If solid
food touches the pyloris it closes immediately and nothing passes for a
time. If there were particles of cabbage in the stomach unmasticated in
which you can see part of the leaf, they are liable to keep the contents of
the stomach in it seven or eight hours or longer by coming into contact
with the pyloris. The liquid contents would pass into the intestines. The
solid part would be retained for a very long time. The pyloris works
mechanically, and unless a chemist knows to what extent those unchewed
portions have affected the pyloris he can give no reliable estimate as to
how long such food has been in the stomach. It’s a guess. The acid in
the stomach is hydrochloric, consisting of one atom of hydrogen and one
of chlorine. It combines with protein; only one per cent. of cabbage is
protein, and only about one per cent. of the cabbage is acted upon in the
stomach; the balance is acted upon in the small intestines, and in the
mouth, where digestion begins to a certain extent. The salts in the sal-
iva act on the starch in the cabbage. This cabbage (State’s Exhibit G)

I don’t think has been masticated at all so far as these pieces are con-
cerned. There can be no doubt that these pieces would retard the diges-
tion and the passage from the stomach into the small intestines. The
presence of such cabbage would make it very uncertain as to how long
before the food would pass out of the stomach. I couldn’t say, and I
don’t think anybody could say, how long cabbage and wheat bread in
such condition would stay in the stomach. As far as wheat bread and
water are concerned the acidity of the stomach with reference to hydro-
chloric acid may go between 40 and 60 degrees, which is the average
height of the acidity. With wheat bread in the same shape of biscuit it
would take the acidity about an hour to reach that height. With cabbage
we don’t know how long it would take it to reach that height. The acid-
ity may rise very quickly and decline slowly. It would not necessarily
take it one-half of the 4�_ hours necessary for digestion. When the acid-
ity reaches a certain height it begins to descend. The longer it stays in
the stomach it decreases. If you find 32 degrees in the body of a corpse
you cannot tell whether it is on the ascending or decreasing scale. There
is no data on how long it would take the acidity to reach its height in case
of cabbage. If a gallon of the juices of a corpse are taken from the body
and a gallon of embalming fluid, which is 8 per cent. formalin, is put in,
it would destroy the ferments in the pancreatic juices. There would be
no way to tell by testing such a body whether any of that pancreatic juice
had been in the lower intestine or not, for the only way to tell that is to
find the action of the ferment, and if the formalin has destroyed it you
can’t tell anything about that at all. After formalin has been in the body
it is difficult to tell how long food has been in the stomach. Formalin de-
stroys the pepsin in the stomach. I never heard of hydrochloric acid be-
ing measured by drops before, because it is vapor. If I investigated a
stomach and found wheat bread and cabbage, some of which was in that
condition (State’s Exhibit “G”) and approximately a drop and a half
or two drops of combined hydrochloric acid, the stomach being taken out
during a post mortem on a subject that has been interred nine of ten
days, a gallon of the liquids of the body having been taken out and a gal-
lon of embalming fluid put in it, and if I further found the acidity of the
stomach to be 32 degrees and practically no pepsin, and practically noth-
ing in the lower intestine, the body having been embalmed with formal-
dehyde, it would be impossible for me or any other chemist or physician
to tell anything about the time it had been in the stomach. The acidity
of the stomach does not suffice to show it, because it may have been
higher than that. There may have been considerable free hydrochloric
acid, and that may have disappeared after the body had been embalmed,
or even before that some of it will combine with the walls of the body
and some passes out. Not finding anything in the lower intestine would
be of no value at all, because the ferments would be destroyed entirely.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

If I took the contents of an absolutely normal stomach and made a
positive test and found starch there, and there was nothing to indicate
that anything was stopped up, and the intestines six feet below were ab-
solutely clear, and nothing has moved out of the stomach, that would
show me nothing as to how far digestion had progressed, for starch is
found in the stomach from the beginning of digestion until the last par-
ticle of bread has passed out of the stomach and that may be three or
four hours. Medical men are able to compile tables showing how long it
takes to digest cabbage and other things by testing for protein, but not
for starch, because proteins are the only substances which combine with
the hydrochloric acid and which are digested in the stomach, and that
can be done only within certain limits and not with mathematical cer-
tainty. If the starch digestion is not interrupted, maltose would be found
in the stomach, but if I made a test and found starch, but no maltose, I
could express no opinion unless the food had been well masticated, and
unless I knew how soon after the food entered the stomach that free hy-
drochloric acid appeared, because free hydrochloric acid stops the starch
digestion. Finding starch and no maltose would not necessarily mean
that digestion had not progressed very far, because free hydrochloric
acid may have appeared soon after the food entered the stomach and
stopped starch digestion. In the average case I would say the starch had
not been in the stomach very long. In an ordinary normal stomach you
might find maltose before the food reaches the stomach, even in the
mouth. It depends on mastication. If I did not find it in the mouth or
stomach I could not say how long digestion had progressed. If I was
told that these samples (State’s Exhibit “G”) were taken from a nor-
mal stomach within from 40 to 60 minutes after they were taken in it, I
would answer that they might have been in the stomach 7 or 8 hours.
When it is said in the books that it takes four hours to digest cabbage it
means cabbage which has been well chewed, not cabbage of that kind.
(State’s Exhibit “G”).

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
Cabbage, like this (State’s Exhibit “G”) could pass from the body
whole. Before it could be told with any degree of certainty how long af-
ter eating a meal of bread and cabbage 32 degrees of hydrochloric acid
would be found, numerous observations would have to be made.

DR. THOMAS HANCOCK, sworn for the Defendant.
A doctor for 22 years. Engaged in hospital work 6 or 7 years.
Have treated about 14,000 cases of surgery. Have examined the private.
parts of Leo M. Frank and found nothing abnormal. As far as my exam-
ination disclosed he is a normal man sexually. If a body is embalmed
about 8 or 10 or 12 hours after death, a gallon of the liquids of the body

removed, a gallon of embalming fluid, containing 8 per cent. formalde-
hyde is injected, the body buried and a post mortem examination made at
the end of 9 or 10 days, and the doctor finds back of the ear a cut which is
opened and which extends to the skull about an inch and a half long and
finds on the inside of the skull no actual break of the skull, but a slight
hemorrhage under the skull corresponding to the point where the blow
had been delivered and there is no interference with the brain or any
pressure on brain, no doctor could tell that long after death whether or
not wound would have produced unconsciousness, because the skull may
be broken and considerable hemorrhage and depression occur without
any loss of memory even. There is no outside physical indication of any
sort that a man could find that can tell whether it produced unconscious-
ness or not. If the body was found 8 or 10 or 12 hours after death with
that wound and some blood appears to have flowed out of the wound,
that wound could have been inflicted before or after death, the blood
might flow from a wound inflicted after death from one to six or eight or
ten hours by gravity. If the wound was made during life by a sharp in-
strument I would expect it to bleed. A live body bleeds more than a
corpse. If under the above conditions only a visual examination of the
lungs was made and no congestion was found, it could not be stated with
certainty whether or not the person died from strangulation. If in such
a subject I removed the stomach and found in it wheat bread and cab-
bage partly digested like that (State’s Exhibit ” G”), and 32 degrees of
acidity in the stomach and very little liquids or anything in the smaller
intestine and feces some 5 or 6 feet further down, and if the stomach was
taken from the body 9 days after death, after it had been embalmed with
a preparation containing 8 per cent. formaldehyde, neither I nor any-
body else could give an intelligent opinion of how long that cabbage and
wheat bread had been in the stomach before death. The digestion of
carbohydrates begins in the mouth. The more cabbage and wheat bread
are masticated the more easily it is digested. Cabbage chewed like that
(State’s Exhibit “G”) would take longer to digest. It is liable to stay
in the stomach 3, 4 or 5 hours, and longer if it is stopped up by the py-
loris, and when food is not chewed thoroughly, it causes irritation and
constriction, and so the stomach would retain the food longer.
Sometimes cabbage passes out of the body whole. No dependable opin-
ion could be given as to the time that cabbage had been in the stomach
from the conditions of acidity or lack of acidity, starch or the lack of
starch, maltose or the lack of maltose. The conditions are too variable.
A great many things retard digestion, such as excitement, anger and
grief. Formaldehyde stops all fermented processes of the pancreatic
juices, and after a body was embalmed with it I would not expect to find
the pancreatic juices. It also destroys the pepsin, so that 10 days after
death in the case of a body embalmed with formaldehyde no accurate
opinion could be given as to how long the cabbage (State’s Exhibit” G”)
had been in the stomach. Each stomach is a law unto itself. Cooked
cabbage is more difficult to digest than raw cabbage. I recently made

tests with one man and four women with normal stomachs, giving them
cabbage and wheat bread, and removing it from the stomach a little later
to determine how the contents of the stomach looked. The first woman,
age 22 (Defendant’s Exhibit 88A) at loaf bread and cabbage, chewed
it well and vomited it 60 minutes later. She ate it at 12 o’clock approxi-
mately. It took her 9 minutes to chew it. None of them were supposed
to have eaten anything since 6:30 o’clock that morning, but she had drunk
some chocolate milk at 9:30, and that gives this specimen the chocolate
brown color. The next one (Defendant’s Exhibit 88B) has in it the hot
water and the entire vomit and embalming fluid added to it, that is for-
maldehyde. This cabbage was not well chewed, and looks like it did be-
fore it was eaten. She ate it at 5 minutes after 12, and it stayed in her
stomach 45 minutes. The next one (Defendant’s Exhibit 88D) was a
man 25 years old. He did not chew his well. He ate it in 5 minutes. I
took it from his stomach 1 hour and 15 minutes later. It was not di-
gested. This next one (Defendant’s Exhibit 88C) was a woman, aged
21. She chewed it well, and held it from 30 to 45 minutes. There seems
to be something like tomatoes in it which she ate at 6:30 that morning.
This last one (Defendant’s Exhibit 88E) was a woman, aged 25. She
ate cabbage and bread. She did not chew it well, and kept it 2 hours and
28 minutes. You can see cabbage in there. No dependable opinion re-
sulting from the condition of the contents of the stomach irrespective of
acidity or the other chemical qualities as to how long cabbage and wheat
bread were in the stomach can be given where particles like that (State’s
Exhibit” G”) are found. Where a young lady 13 or 14 years old died,
her body is embalmed as above described, and a post mortem performed
9 or 10 days after death, and the physician finds epithelium detached
from, the walls of the vagina in several places, nothing being visible to
the naked eye and he takes several parts of the wall of the vagina away
and examines them with a microscope and discovers that the blood ves-
sels are congested, that is, there has been a hemorrhage in a number of
instances, the blood from those microscopic vessels getting into tissues,
the removal of the epithelium could be accounted for by the fact that
there has been a digital examination the day after death by inserting the
fingers, but in that length of time I would expect the epithelium to shed
off. Finding the epithelium missing in several places or separated from
the wall of the vagina would not indicate any violence done to the sub-
jects in life. The condition of the blood vessels above described I would
expect to result from other causes than violence. The embalming might
force the blood through the small capillaries. If the subject had just had
her menstrual period and that had come back on her at about the time of
death or before, that would account for those distended blood vessQls
and hemorrhage; but even if violence caused them, you could not tell
how long before death that violence had been inflicted, or that it had been
inflicted within from 5 to 15 minutes before death. Death by strangula-
tion might have an effect on those blood vessels. If there was no more
damage than what I have described I would say certainly there was no

violence on the young woman. A bruise or discoloration could be pro-
duced on the eye or face any time before the blood coagulated utterly,
which may be as long as 8 or 10 or 12 hours after death. A blow on the
back of the head can discolor the eye. Death can be produced by a blow
on the outside of the head by concussion without any appreciable lesion
on the outside of the head.

DR. WILLIS F. WESTMORELAND, sworn for the Defendant.
DIRECT EXAMINATION.
A practicing physician for twenty-eight years, general practice and
surgery. A professor of surgery for twenty years, and formerly presi-
dent of the State Board of Health. If the body of a girl between thirteen
and fourteen years old was embalmed about ten hours after death, after
taking out a gallon of fluid and putting in a gallon of embalming fluid, of
which 8 per cent. is formaldehyde and the body was buried and nine or
ten days after upon a post mortem examination a cut an inch and a half
long cutting through to the skull in some places was found by the ear,
and the skull was opened and on the inside of the skull no actual break of
the skull was found, but a little hemorrhage under the skull correspond-
ing to this point where the blow had been delivered and no pressure on
the brain was caused, and no injury to the brain occurred it would be im-
possible to tell whether or not that would have produced unconscious-
ness before death. Skull may be fractured without producing uncon-
sciousness. Death may be produced by a blow on the head that leaves
very little outward signs. From looking at such a wound without any
knowledge of the amount of blood lost, one could not tell whether it was
inflicted before or after death. One could not tell from looking at a
wound of that sort from which direction it was inflicted. [In answer to
question as to whether he had any personal feeling against Dr. Harris,
witness answered “No,” but that he had preferred charges with State
Board of Health charging Dr. Harris with professional dishonesty]. A
blunt surface can produce a wound that would look like a cut. If in the
case of the same patient the stomach was taken out and in it was found
wheat bread and cabbage, some of the cabbage looking like that (State’s
Exhibit” G,” and thirty-two degrees of combined hydrochloric acid and
substantially nothing in the small intestine, and feces some five feet
away, it would be impossible to form a reliable opinion that cabbage and
bread had been in that stomach before death, on that data or any other
data, that could be found by looking at the stomach nine or ten days after
death. Many things retard digestion. Much depends upon the particu-
lar stomach, and its affinity for particular foods. There is a cycle of
acidity and in the progress of digestion that increases, and then later it
goes down. Food that is not thoroughly emulsified will remain in the
stomach indefinitely. Cabbage like that (State’s Exhibit “G”) and
wheat bread might remain in the stomach until the process of digestion
is complete, which ordinarily would be from three and a half to four

hours. They might pass through the body undigested. A formaldehyde
embalming preparation would destroy the pancreatic juices, and also the
pepsin in the stomach. The probability is that some of the hydrochloric
acid and maltose found upon an examination of the stomach in such a
case would in no way determine how long food has been in the stomach. If
upon the post mortem above described, it was found that the epithelium
had been so effected that it had been removed from the wall of the vagina
in several places, and upon a microscopic test of the wall of the vagina it
was found that some of the small blood vessels had congested blood in
them, these facts would not necessarily indicate violence of any kind dur-
ing life, it being also known that there had been a digital examination by
the physician just after death and before embalming, and that the phy-
sician performing the post mortem had removed the wall of the vagina
with his hand and scissors. Any epithelium can be very easily stripped
after death. The digital examination could have stripped it. So could
the removal for purposes of post mortem examination. If the subject
had had a menstrual period a day or two before death and she was found
in the act of menstruating at the time of death, this would account for the
congested blood vessels, and it would also make the epithelium much
easier to strip. Even if an opinion could be expressed as to violence be-
fore death, it would be impossible to say that it occurred from five to fif-
teen minutes before death. From an examination of the private parts of
Leo M. Frank he appears to be a perfectly normal man. A black eye
could be inflicted after death. As long as the blood is not coagulated. A
lick on the back of the head could produce a black eye.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
There are sexual inverts who are absolutely normal in physical ap-
pearance If I had a subject where there was a blow on the head, going
practically to the skull, with no injury to the brain, and the face was livid,
the tongue hanging out, with deep indentation in the neck, the flesh
pushed out of place, with blue nails and lips, I would say that death was
produced by strangulation, in the absence of other facts. A blow on the
eye could produce a swollen condition after death. Even assuming that
the doctor who went into the uterus and vagina with his fingers was very
careful and did not rupture or injure the parts or cause dilation, and if
the microscopical examination showed a dilation of the blood vessels of
the vagina, discoloration of the walls, and swelling of the parts, the
menses could have brought about this condition, and it would not neces-
sarily be due to violence. Menstruation would not produce discoloration
except there would be an increased reddening on account of the increased
amount of blood. This change of color will be found wherever epithe-
lium was, in the uterus and in the vagina. It would produce swelling
wherever the mucous membrane was. A doctor could not look at cab-
bage in various stages of digestion and venture an opinion as to how
long it had been in a woman’s stomach. Doctors do not know, even ap-
proximately, how soon after a stomach receives a certain substance be-

fore hydrochloric acid is found in a free state. It may be delayed for
hours, it may be found earlier. Digestion has no fixed rule at all. The
usual rule is the hydrochloric acid is found within a range of about half
an hour. The time when it begins to descend depends upon the charac-
ter of the food in the stomach and as to how the glands are acting.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
The human tongue could not produce any signs of violence in the
vagina. Where there is a skull wound an inch and a half long cutting
through the little arteries like the wound described above, it would
bleed and if the body lay in one place 30 or 40 minutes there would be
bleeding and if the body is picked up and carried about 40 feet and
dropped at another place I would expect to find blood there. Skull
wounds bleed very freely and there would be blood wherever the body
was.

DR. J. C. OLMSTEAD, sworn for the Defendant.
Practicing physician for 36 years. Given the facts that a young
lady 13 or 14 years old died and 8 or 10 hours after death the body was
embalmed with a preparation containing 8 per cent. formaldehyde, and
the body is exhumed at the end of 9 or 10 days, and a post-mortem ex-
amination shows a wound on the left side of the back of the head about
an inch and a half long, with cuts through to the skull, but no actual
fracture of the skull, but a hemorrhage under the skull corresponding
to the point where the blow was delivered, with no injury to the brain,
it would not be possible for a physician to determine whether or
not that wound produced unconsciousness before death. Such a
wound could have been made within a short while after death. It is
impossible to tell from the mere fact of discoloration whether an eye
was blackened before or after death. If the post-mortem made on the
same subject 9 or 10 days after death showed upon an examination of
the contents of the stomach a mixture of wheat bread and cabbage like
this (State’s Exhibit G), it being possible to distinguish a cabbage leaf,
and 32 degrees of acidity, it would not be possible to determine from
these facts or any other chemical facts that might be found there how
long that had been in the stomach with any degree of accuracy. It is im-
possible to tell when hydrochloric acid begins to be secreted in a given
case. The hydrochloric acid follows a curve; as a rule it ordinarily begins
slowly until it reaches a certain point and then gradually goes off ac-
cording to the character of the food and the amount in the stomach. Af-
ter death free hydrochloric acid and pepsin do not remain in such a
state in the stomach that you could tell 9 days afterward the exact time
of death. The hydrochloric acid disappears after death, and neither it
nor the pepsin would be present in any degree 9 or 10 days after death.
Embalming fluid destroys the pancreatic juices so that it would be im-
possible to find them. Cabbage like that (State’s Exhibit G) is liable

to obstruct the opening of the pyloris, and to delay digestion. Food of
that character might remain in the stomach undigested for 10 or 12
hours irrespective of the acid found there. If shortly after death a doc-
tor makes a digital and visual examination of the vagina, opening the
walls of the vagina with his hand and finds no signs of violence and
then 9 or 10 days after death a post-mortem examination shows the
epithelium detached from the walls of the vagina in a number of places,
and a microscope shows on parts of the vagina removed from the body
that the blood vessels are congested, this may be due to menstruation
or the natural gravitation of blood to those parts and is not necessarily
indicative of violence. Manipulation of the membrane would account
for the displacing of the epithelium. The use of embalming fluid would
make a diagnosis of violence utterly unreliable. Strangulation might
result in a distension of the blood vessels. The entire pelvic vessels are
always more or less congested during menstruation. No one could make
a digital examination of the vagina of a corpse without disturbing the
epithelium. It would be impossible for a doctor finding those condi-
tions in the vagina by means of a microscope 9 or 10 days after death
to tell that violence had been inflicted from 5 to 15 minutes before death.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
There are medical tables showing that wheat bread digests in about
2 1-2 hours and cabbage in about 4 1-2 hours. If cabbage cooked in the
same way and bolted down in the same way is taken from the stomach
of a living person within 30 or 50 minutes after having been eaten and
is found in a similar condition to that of cabbage taken from the dead
person’s stomach 10 days after death, that would not necessarily mean
that the latter cabbage had been in the stomach an equal length of time.

DR. W. S. KENDRICK, sworn for the Defendant.
I have been a practicing physician for thirty-five years. I was Dean
of the Atlanta Medical College. I gave Dr. Harris his first position
there. If a young lady between thirteen and fourteen years of age died
and a post-mortem examination was made within eight or ten days af-
ter death, by a physician who makes a digital and visual examination
to determine whether there is any violence to the vagina or not, and in-
serts his fingers for the purpose of deciding, and the body is embalmed,
and after nine days it is disinterred and another post-mortem perform-
ed and the physician performing the post-mortem takes a half dozen
strips and sees nothing with his naked eye by way of congestion, but by
the use of a microscope finds that some of the epithelium is stripped
from the wall of the vagina, I don’t think that the finding of the epithe-
lium stripped from the wall would indicate anything unusual. I don’t
think that would indicate any act of violence. A female’s menstrual pe-
riods brings about congestion and hemorrhages of the blood vessels
every time. The congestion gradually subsides within two or three

days. That would not be any indication of violence, nor could you tell
how long before death the violence had been inflicted. If a young lady
had a wound on the back of the head about an inch and a half long cut-
ting to the skull and the skull was open and a small hemorrhage was
found, that did not involve pressure on the brain and the brain itself
was not injured, I am positive that no man examining the body nine or
ten days after death could have any way of telling whether that wound
would produce unconsciousness or not. It would be a pure conjecture
if he said anything on that subject. Skulls are sometimes fractured
without unconsciousness. Each stomach is a law to itself. It is a known
fact that some stomachs will digest different substances quicker than
others. I don’t think that there is an expert in the world who could
form any definite idea by either chemical analysis of the liquids of the
stomach or by the condition of the cabbage lodged in the stomach as
to how long it had been in the stomach.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I am not a specialist of the stomach, but I am and have been teach-
ing diseases of the stomach and all these cases come under my jurisdic-
tion. Dr. Westmoreland is a surgeon, not a stomach specialist. Dr.
Hancock is not a stomach specialist. If you find starch granules in the
stomach undigested and cabbage undigested and thirty-two degrees of
hydrochloric acid in the stomach and no dextrose and no maltose, the
small intestines for six feet absolutely empty, the sides and glands of
the stomach all normal, I would not have an opinion as to how long that
cabbage was in the stomach for the reason that each case will order it-
self. Yes, there are certain general principles dealing with these mat-
ters. Hydrochloric acid appears early during digestion and in small
quantity, and goes up. The main things in the stomach are pepgin and
hydrochloric acid. As soon as a piece of cabbage or bread gets into the
stomach the hydrochloric acid begins to attack it and works until it
has a clear field and leaves nothing in the stomach, and thereafter the
hydrochloric acid descends. I have made no effort whatever to find out
how rapidly hydrochloric acid descends and ascends. I should think
though that whenever you find no hydrochloric acid the process of di-
gestion is ended and that if you find undigested things in the stomach
and hydrochloric acid in a small degree, that the process of digestion
had not been finished. That’s the general rule. That does not apply in
all cases. For instance, I can’t digest cabbage at all. It will put me in
bed. Each stomach is a law unto itself, so far as digestion goes, any
statement to the contrary is incorrect. There are certain basic laws
that apply to most people. 1 haven’t read a work on digestion in ten
years. If there be four different stages of digestion, I think it would be
impossible for an expert to tell by an examination what stage of diges-
tion certain things were in. There are so many exceptions to the rule.
As to whether the cabbage had been digested or not, if whole pieces of

cabbage were there I could tell, but if you could not find the cabbage
either with the naked eye or the microscope, I would say that it had
been digested. I don’t know how long it takes an ordinary stomach to
digest turnips. If a 13-year-old child ate cabbage and bread on Satur-
day and her body is found that night about three o’clock, with the
tongue out, deep indentations in the neck, a small flow of blood from a
wound in the back of the head, a discolor of blood over her pantlets,
one of the drawers legs torn, the stocking supporter torn loose rigor
mortis had set in since 16 to 20 hours, all blood had settled down in that
part where gravity had taken it according to the way the body was ly-
ing and the small intestine was clear six feet below the stomach, the
stomach was normal, and there was no mucous and every indication
was that the digestion was progressing favorably and this cabbage was
found with the naked eye in the stomach and unmistakable evidences
of undigested starch granules and thirty-two degrees of hydrochloric
acid, I say emphatically that no man living in my judgment could say
how long that cabbage had been in the stomach. If Mary Phagan was
alarmed concerning her surroundings, or knew that certain facts were
upon her, digestion then and there would have almost been completely
arrested. If she lived six or eight hours after this alarm, I say that no
digestion could have continued up to the time of her death. Any kind
of mental or physical excitement would largely arrest digestion, proba-
bly completely. I could tell by looking into the stomach that day, but
if I examined that ten days afterwards, and found the cabbage in that
state and I had said that death or excitement had arrested its digestion
I would consider that I had stated one of the greatest absurdities of the
day. I don’t believe it is possible to tell a thing in the world of the
contents of the stomach of a person that had been dead six or eight or
ten days. Yes, that looks like cabbage (State’s Exhibit G).

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

That cabbage doesn’t look (State’s Exhibit G) as if it had been
chewed at all. Cabbage chewed that way would be hard to digest.

JOHN ASHLEY JONES, sworn for the defendant.
I have known Mr. Frank about a year or eighteen months. His
general character is good.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I am resident agent for the New York Life Insurance Company. I
don’t know any of the girls at the pencil factory. I have never heard
any talk of Mr. Frank’s practices and relations with the girls down
there. Mr. Frank has a policy of insurance with us. It is our custom
to seek a very thorough report on the moral hazard on all risks. The
report on him showed up first class, physically as well as morally. I

went to him in January, 1912, and tried to write him additional insur-
ance, and on April 8th I went to the factory to take his application,
where I met him and his wife. After a thorough examination of him
by our physician and a very satisfactory report, covering his moral
reputation, we issued him a standard policy. I have never heard of Mr.
Frank going out to Druid Hills and being caught there, but it was the
business of our inspector to find out that and he certainly would not
have issued such a policy if he had found it out. Two or three of us in
the office signed a long letter to the Grand Jury in the interest of jus-
tice. Mr. Robert L. Cooney, Mr. Hollingsworth, Mr. Clark and myself
signed it. We decided this was a matter of persecution. I think Mr.
Cooney started it. No, I have never heard of Mr. Frank’s kissing girls
and playing with their nipples on their breasts. I have never known
Mr. Blackstock. I never heard that Mr. Frank would walk into the
dressing room when the girls were dressing, nor that he tried to put his
arms around Miss Myrtis Cato and tried to shut the door on her, or go-
ing in the dressing room with Lula McDonald and Rachael Prater, nor
that Mrs. Pearl Darlson about five years ago threw a monkey wrench
at him when he put his hand on her and held money in one hand. I
have never seen any nude pictures hanging in his office, although I have
been there a number of times. I have never heard that he smiled and
winked at young girls.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
This is the letter I wrote to the Grand Jury: Mr. W. D. Beatty,
Atlanta, Ga. My Dear Sir: Without having the slightest intention of
interfering in any way in matters which do not concern me, I believe
that the interest which any good citizen has in impartial justice war-
rants my saying that the business men to whom I have talked, com-
mend very strongly the attitude of the Grand Jury in its disposition to
at least investigate the merits of the situation as regards the negro
Conley in the present matter which has interested the city of Atlanta
so much that it is not necessary to describe it, and I sincerely hope.that
the Grand Jury will go into the matter exhaustively, knowing from the
character of several of its members with whom I am acquainted that,
to the best of their ability, the right thing will be done.”

DR. LEROY CHILDS, sworn for the Defendant.
I am a surgeon. If a person dies and the body found three o’clock
in the morning, rigor mortis not quite complete, embalmed the next day
about ten o’clock, the body disinterred nine days later and a post-mor-
tem made, and a wound is found on the back of the head behind the ear,
almost two and a quarter inches long going through the skull, there was
perhaps a drop of blood under the wound, no pressure on the brain, no
fracture of the skull, it would be impossible to determine absolutely at
that time whether or not that wound produced unconsciousness. You

might hazard a guess. The presence of the blood on the skull would
have no effect. It is the force that produced the drop of blood that is
material. It would be purely a guess to say whether that produced un-
consciousness or not. The wound would bleed if inflicted within an
hour after death and would have the same appearance as if inflicted
just before death. With such a wound it would be a guess for a doctor
to say whether it was inflicted just immediately before death, or within
an hour or two after death. Such a wound could be inflicted and a per-
son remain perfectly unconscious. Fractured skull does not necessarily
produce unconsciousness. Cabbage is a carbohydrate. It is considered
the hardest food to digest among carbohydrates, because it has so
much cellulose which is a woody fibre. The older the cabbage is the
more cellulose it has. Cabbage gets its digestion in the mouth. That
cabbage (State’s Exhibit G) has not been masticated thoroughly. They
have been swallowed almost whole. Raw cabbage is easier digested
than cooked cabbage. Cooked cabbage is the most indigestible form of
it. It is the ptyaline in the saliva that acts on the cabbage in the mouth.
It acts on the carbohydrate part of the cabbage. The carbohydrate di-
gestion ceases after it leaves the mouth until it reaches the small in-
testines. The only thing that the stomach does is the churning move-
ment by muscular action. As soon as gastric juice of the stomach
strikes the cabbage it neutralizes the ptyaline and renders it inactive. It
stops any further digestion of the carbohydrate. The balance of the di-
gestion of the cabbage takes place in the small intestines by the pan-
creatic juices. The shortest time for boiled cabbage to pass into the
small intestines is four and a half hours after it is eaten. The stomach
does not digest the cabbage. A person may swallow cabbage and it will
come out of him whole completely undigested, and it will appear less
changed than that appears (State’s Exhibit G). Psychic influences will
retard digestion as excitement, fear, anger, also physical or mental ex-
ercise. Substances may be in the stomach quite a while and show very
little evidences of digestion. Each stomach has its own peculiarities.
If a human body is disinterred at the end of nine days and the stomach
is taken out and among the contents you find cabbage like that (State’s
Exhibit G) and fragments of wheat bread slightly digested, you could
not by looking at the cabbage hazard an opinion as to how long before
death that had been taken into the stomach. I don’t think it is possi-
ble to state within a period of hours how long that cabbage had been in
the stomach. I have seen cabbage less changed than that cabbage you
exhibited to me (State’s Exhibit G) that has remained in the stomach
12 hours. Bread and cabbage will not begin to pass out of the stomach
until 2 1-2 to three hours. A blow on the back of the head could blacken
the eye. It would be perfectly possible for the epithelium of the vagina
to be ruptured by the fingers in making a digital examination it would
be more liable to rupture it ten hours after this than immediately before
this. Decomposition destroys the epithelium. It is a very delicate mem-
brane. Decomposition develops very rapidly on such epithelium. In

cases of death by strangulation all the mucous membranes throughout
the body are congested by blood. It is not unusual to find those blood
vessels congested where death is by strangulation. In such a case I
would expect to find congestion in the vagina, especially if a person had
just had her monthly periods. Menses may be brought back by excite-
ment. Violence would not be necessary to produce the conditions of
congestion of the blood vessels that you have stated. The digital ex-
amination would be sufficient violence to produce the changes in the
epithelium that you have stated. The congestion of the blood vessels
could be entirely accounted for by natural causes, or from death by
strangulation. If the epithelium stripped in some places and the blood
vessels are found congested under the microscope, there is no possible
way to determine if violence had caused it instead of natural causes,
unless there is a sign of bacterial inflamation. It would be impossible
to tell how long violence was inflicted before death, where the body is
disinterred nine days after death. I could not hazard a guess within
two days of the time. I think I might in two weeks.

GROSS EXAMINATION.

The amount of digestion in the mouth depends on the amount of
mastication in the mouth. If the blood is bolted there is no digestion. I
am not familiar with Dr. Crittendon’s table. If he states that boiled
cabbage is as easy to digest as raw cabbage he is at issue with the gen-
erally accepted authorities. Normal stomachs have certain idiosyn-
cracies. Digestion in normal stomachs is supposed to go along certain
stipulated rules. You find free hydrochloric acid in any stomach that
has food at any stage of digestion. As to whether you could ever find
free hydrochloric acid in the stomach immediately after taking Ewald’s
test breakfast, would depend entirely on the state of the glands, and
how long previous digestion had been in the stomach. As to the total
acidity in a stomach after such a test, that is for a laboratory man. If
you take cabbage out of a stomach like that (State’s Exhibit G), the
size of the stomach is normal, no obstruction to the flow of the stomach,
and you find hydrochloric acid combined to about 32 degrees, no free
hydrochloric acid, that the starch of the wheat bread is slightly digest-
ed, and the state of the starch corresponds exactly to the state of the
cabbage, I don’t think you could tell inside of two hours or an hour and
a half as to how long these things have been in a normal stomach. I
have taken cabbage from a stomach by forced emesis twelve hours after-
-ward and it did not show as much digestion as this cabbage (State’s
Exhibit G). The patient had a normal stomach, but the cabbage pro-
duced indigestion. That is the only experiment I have ever made with
cabbage. If the little girl was found 16 to 20 hours after she was mur-
dered, and there is a wound on the back of the head, with a small blood
clot nine days after the thing happened, and 16 to 20 hours after her
death the blood underneath the hair is still moist and there is a deep

indentation in the neck, showing where a cord had been put around the
throat and the tongue is out and the face livid and the nails blue and
the lips blue and an injury to the wind pipe, I would say that the blow
on the head did not cause death.

ALFRED LORING LANE, sworn for the Defendant.
I am a resident of Brooklyn, N. Y. I have known Leo Frank about
15 years. I knew him four years at Pratt Institute which we both at.
tended. I also knew him after he returned from Cornell University. His
general character is good.

PHILIP NASH, sworn for the Defendant.
I live in Ridgewood, N. J. I am connected with the New York Tel-
ephone Company, in New York City. I knew Leo Frank four years at
JVratt Institute. I was in his class. His general character is good.

RICHARD A. WRIGHT, sworn for the Defendant.
I live in Brooklyn, N. Y. I am a consulting engineer, with offices
in New York City. I knew Leo Frank four years at Pratt Institute. I
also knew him three years at Cornell. His general character is good.

HARRY LEWIS, sworn for the Defendant.
I live in Brooklyn, N. Y. I am a lawyer. I was formerly Assistant
District Attorney of Brooklyn. I have known Leo Frank about twelve
years. I have been a neighbor of his until he came South. His general
character is good.

HERBERT LASHER, sworn for the Defendant.
I live in New York State. I manage my father’s estates. I knew
Leo Frank at Cornell University, during the years 1903-4-5-6. I was in
his class, and we roomed together for two years. His general character
was very good.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

He associated with the finest class of students at the University. I
kept up a correspondence with him a couple of years after he left Cor-
nell.

JOHN W. TODD, sworn for the Defendant.
I reside in Pittsburg. I am assistant purchasing agent for the Cru-
cible Steel Co. I attended Cornell University with Leo Frank. I knew
him for years during the time I was in College. I am the life treasurer
of our class. His general character was good.

PROF. C. D. ALBERT, sworn for the Defendant.
I am professor of machine designs in Cornell University. I have
held that chair for five years. I knew Leo M. Frank for two years while
he attended the University. At that time I was instructor in mechani-
cal laboratory, and as such I came in contact with him. His character
was very good.

PROF. J. E. VANDERHOEF, sworn for the Defendant.
I am foreman of the foundry at Cornell University. I knew Leo
Frank for two years when he attended the University. His character
was good.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I have been at Cornell 25 years. As to what caused me to take any
special notice of Leo Frank I come in contact with him every alternate
day while he was there. I know the characteristics of the boys very well.
No, I cannot tell what Frank did when he was in the class-room.

V. H. KRIEGSHABER, sworn for the Defendant.
I live in Atlanta. I have known Leo Frank for about three years.
His general character is good.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I did not come in contact with him frequently. I am a trustee of the
Hebrew Orphans’ Home and Mr. Frank is also. I met him once a month
there. I don’t know how long he has been on the board. I have met
him there probably twice. He also came quite frequently to the Or-
phans’ Home with his uncle, before he was elected to the board. I did
not come in contact with him socially.

M. F. GOLDSTEIN, sworn for the Defendant.
I practice law in Atlanta. I have known Leo Frank about three and
a half years. His character is very good.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

We used to live on the same street together. I would see him nearly
every day. I would see him at the Progress Club a few times every
month. During the last two years, he was the next ranking officer to me
in the Lodge.

DR. DAVID MARX, Jewish Rabbi, and R. A. SONN, Superinten-
dent of the Hebrew Orphans’ Home, being sworn for the Defendant, tes-

tified that they had known Leo Frank very well ever since he came to
live in Atlanta and that his character was good.

ARTHUR HEYMAN, sworn for the Defendant.

I practiced law about nineteen years in Atlanta. I have known Leo
Frank for three or four years. His general character is good.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I have been with him seven or eight times in three years. I have
been with him alone, I suppose, five or six times, probably for fifteen or
twenty minutes at a time. I have never heard any reference made to his
relation with the girls in the factory.

MRS. H. GLOGOWSKI, sworn for the Defendant.

I keep a boarding house in this city. I have known Mr. Frank more
than three years. He and his wife boarded with me for seven months.
His character is good.

MRS. ADOLPH MONTAG, sworn for the Defendant.

I am a sister of Mr. Sig Montag. I have known Mr. Frank five
years. His character is very good.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I have heard of his character through the ladies he has lived with.
Mrs. Meyers has told me how nice he always was to her. My husband
has always spoken well of him. I have heard a great many people speak
well of him. I heard his uncle speak well of him. My husband has told
me what a fine, intelligent gentleman he was.

MRS. J. 0. PARMELEE, sworn for the Defendant.

My husband is a stockholder in the National Pencil Company. Mr.
Frank’s general character is very good.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I have seen Mr. Frank at the jail twice. I have only come in contact
with him once at the factory. I am a member of the Board of Sheltering
Arms, and I have heard a great deal of Mr. Frank in matters of charity
and in a social way. I have heard different people speak of him, a great
many people. I have heard the Liebermans, the Montags, the Haases,
Mrs. Bauer, Mr. Parmalee and the employees at the factory speak of him.

MISS IDA HAYS, sworn for the Defendant.
I work at the pencil factory on the fourth floor. I have known Mr.
Frank for two years. His general character is good. I have known Con-
ley for two years. His general character for truth and veracity is bad.
I would not believe him on oath.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
Conley borrowed money and promised to pay it back, but he didn’t
do it. We would get it after awhile. He tried to borrow money from me,
but I refused to let him have it.

MISS EULA MAY FLOWERS, sworn for the Defendant.
I work on the second floor of the pencil factory. I have known Mr.
Frank for three years. His general character is good. I have known
Conley for 2 years. His general character for truth and veracity is bad.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
His borrowing money and not paying it back is one thing. He has
promised and he has never paid back anything he has ever borrowed
from me. I had Mr. Gantt take it out of his envelope. I have never met
Mr. Frank anywhere for any immoral purpose.

MISS OPIE DICKERSON, sworn for the Defendant.
I have worked at the pencil factory for 17 months. Mr. Frank’s
general character is good. I have never met Mr. Frank for any immor-
al purpose. I have known Jim Conley ever since I have been at the fac-
tory. His general character for truth and veracity is bad. I would not
believe him on oath.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I know Mr. Darley and Mr. Wade Campbell. I don’t remember if I
was with them on the night of April 26th. I don’t remember where I was.

MRS. EMMA CLARK FREEMAN, sworn for the Defendant.
I have worked at the pencil factory over four years. Mr. Frank’s
general character is good. I am a married woman. I have known Con-
ley ever since he has been at the factory. His general character for
truth and veracity is bad. I would not believe him on oath.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I have never heard’any suggestion of any wrongdoing on the part of
Mr. Frank, either in or out of the factory. I was forelady at the factory
for about three years.

MISS SARAH BARNES, sworn for the Defendant.
I worked at the pencil factory over four years. His character is
good. I have never heard anything bad. He has been the best of men.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

No one has talked to me about what I was going to swear. I have
told Mr. Arnold what I have told here. I never went with Mr. Frank
for any immoral purpose anywhere.

MISS IRENE JACKSON, sworn for the Defendant.
I worked at the pencil factory for three years. So far as I know Mr.
Frank’s character was very well. I don’t know anything about him. He
never said anything to me. I have never met Mr. Frank at any time for
any immoral purpose.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I am the daughter of County Policeman Jackson. I never heard the
girls say anything about him, except that they seemed to be afraid of
him. They never would notice him at all. They would go to work when
they saw him coming. Miss Emily Mayfield and I were undressing in the
dressing room once when Mr. Frank came to the door. He looked, turned
around and walked out. He just came to the door and pushed it open. He
smiled or made some kind of face. Miss Mayfield had her top dress off
and had her old dress in her hand to put it on. I told Mr. Darley I would
not quit unless my father made me, and he said if the girls would stick to
Frank they won’t lose anything. I heard some remarks two or three
times about Mr. Frank going to the dressing room on different occasions,
but I don’t remember anything about it. The second time I heard of his
going to the dressing room was when my sister was laying down there.
She had her feet on a stool. She was dressed. I was in there at the time.
He just walked in, and turned and walked out. Mr. Frank walked in the
dressing room on Miss Mamie Kitchens, when I was in there. He never
said anything the three times he walked in when I was there. The dress-
ing room has a mirror and a few lockers for the foreladies. That’s the
only thing that I have ever seen Mr. Frank do, go in the dressing room
and stare at the girls. I have heard them speak of other times when I
was not there.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

My father made me quit, after the murder. There are two windows
in the dressing room opening on Forsyth Street. I think there had been
some complaints of the girls flirting through the windows. I have heard
of some of the girls flirting through the windows. The orders were
against the girls flirting through the windows. Mr. Frank never came
into the room at all, he pushed the door open and just looked. My sister
and I were both dressed when Mr. Frank looked in the door. The other
time he came in I was fixing to put on my street dress. I was not un-
dressed.

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.

I don’t know if Mr. Frank knew the girls were in there before he
opened the door or not. It was the usual hour for them to be in there. He
could have seen the girls register from the outer office, but not from the
inner office. I have never heard any talk about Mr. Frank going around
putting his hands on girls. I have never heard of his going out with any
of the girls. My sister quit at the factory before Christmas. I have never
flirted with anybody out of the window. I have heard them say that they
didn’t want the girls to flirt around the factory. I have heard Mr. Frank
say that to Miss McClellan, after she told him that she knew of some of
the girls flirting.

MISS BESSIE FLEMING, sworn for the Defendant.

I worked as stenographer at Mr. Frank’s office from April, 1911, to
December, 1911. Mr. Frank’s character was unusually good.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I am just talking about my personal relations with him. I have never
seen him do anything wrong there in the factory. He never made any
advances to me or anyone else. I worked right in the same office with
him. The foreladies came to the office, the other girls did not very much.
I never did see any flirting. I never heard about any. Mr. Frank worked
on his financial sheet in the afternoons, he didn’t have time Saturday
morning. I didn’t stay there very often on Saturday afternoons, but I
knew that he didn’t have time to do it Saturday morning. I saw him on
Saturdays during the mornings making out the financial sheet. The girls
work by the hour and piece work. She has a right to go in there when
she wants to dress to go out.

MRS. MATTIE THOMPSON, sworn for the Defendant.

I work on the fourth floor of the pencil factory. I have been there
three years. Mr. Frank’s general character is good. I have never heard
anything against him. I have never met Mr. Frank anywhere or at any
time for any immoral purpose. I have made complaint about girls flirt-
ing out of the windows with men on the outside. After seven o’clock, the
girls are not supposed to be in the dressing room. There is no toilet or
bathtub in the dressing room. There is no lock on the door.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

They were all complaining up there on the fourth floor about the
girls flirting out of the window, and some of us elderly ladies put a stop
to it by reporting it to Mr. Darley. The girls were not fast, but they
would flirt. Mrs. Carson, I and some of the other ladies reported it to
Mr. Darley last spring, about a year ago. The girls simply said they
were standing at the windows, flirting out of the windows with men in the
street. Girls did not go into the dressing room to rest, they would go to
change their clothes before work time, and after finishing work. I have
never heard any talk about Frank taking a girl off in a dark place and
putting his arms around her.

MISS IRENE CARSON, sworn for the Defendant.
I worked for fifteen months on the fourth floor of the pencil factory.
I have known Mr. Frank during that time. His character is good. I am
a sister of Miss Rebecca Carson, and a daughter of Mrs. E. H. Carson. I
was with my sister on Whitehall Street on April 26th and recollect see-
ing Mr. Frank there. I have never met Mr. Frank at any time or place
for any immoral purpose.

MRS. J. J. WARDLAW, sworn for the Defendant.
I worked at the pencil factory four years. I worked on the fourth
floor. Mr. Frank’s character is good. I have never met Mr. Frank at
any time or place for any immoral purpose.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I have never heard of any improper relation of Mr. Frank with any
of the girls at the factory. I have never heard of his putting his arm
around any girl on the street car, or going to the woods with them.

LEO M. FRANK, the Defendant, made the following statement:

Gentlemen of the Jury: In the year 1884, on the 17th day of April,
I was born in Quero, Texas. At the age of three months, my parents took
me to Brooklyn, New York, and I remained in my home until I came
South, to Atlanta, to make my home here. I attended the public schools
of Brooklyn, and prepared for college, in Pratt Institute, Brooklyn, New
York. In the fall of 1902, I entered Cornell University, where I took the
course in mechanical engineering, and graduated after your years, in
June, 1906. I then accepted a position as draftsman with the B. F. Stur-
tevant Company, of Hyde Park, Massachusetts. After remaining with
this firm about 6 months, I returned once more to my home in Brooklyn,
where I accepted a position as testing engineer and draftsman with the
National Meter Company of Brooklyn, New York. I remained in this

position until about the middle of October, 1907, when, at the invitation
of some citizens of Atlanta, I came South to confer with them in refer-
ence to the starting and operation of a pencil factory, to be located in
Atlanta. After remaining here for about two weeks, I returned once
more to New York, where I engaged passage and went to Europe. I re-
mained in Europe nine months. During my sojourn abroad, I studied
the pencil business, and looked after the erection and testing of the ma-
chinery which had been previously contracted for. The first part of
August, 1908, I returned once more to America, and immediately came
South to Atlanta, which has remained my home ever since. I married
in Atlanta, an Atlanta girl, Miss Lucile Selig. The major portion of my
married life has been spent at the home of my parents in law, Mr. and
Mrs. Selig, at 68 East Georgia Avenue. My married life has been excep-
tionally happy-indeed, it has been the happiest days of my life. My
duties as superintendent of the National Pencil Company were in gen-
eral, as follows: I had charge of the technical and mechanical end of the
factory, looking after the operations and seeing that the product was
turned out in quality equal to the standard which is set by our competi-
tors. I looked after -the installation of new machinery and the purchase
of new machinery. In addition to that, I had charge of the office work at
the Forsyth Street plant, and general supervision of the lead plant, which
is situated on Bell Street. I looked after the purchase of the raw mate-
rials which are used in the manufacture of pencils, kept up with the mar-
ket of those materials, where the prices fluctuated, so that the purchases
could be made to the best possible advantage. On Friday, April 15th, I
arrived at the pencil factory on Forsyth Street, at about seven o’clock-
my usual time. I immediately started in on my regular routine work,
looking over papers that I had laid out the evening before, and attending
to any other work that needed my special attention that morning. At
about 9:30 1 went over to the office of the General Manager and Treas-
urer, Mr. Sigmond Montag, whose office is at Montag Brothers, on Nel-
son Street. I stayed over there a short time, got what papers and mail
had arrived over there-all the mail for the Pencil Company comes over
there to their office-I got that mail and brought it back to Forsyth St.
I then separated the mail and continued along my usual routine duties
in the office on Forsyth Street. At about eleven o’clock, Mr. Schiff
handed me the pay roll books covering the plants at Forsyth Street and
at Bell Street, for me to check over to see that the amounts and the ex-
tensions were correct. Of course, this work has to be very carefully
done, so that the proper amount of money is drawn from the bank. This
checking took me until about 12:30 P. M., when I made out the amount on
a slip of paper that I wished to have drawn from the bank, went over to
Montag Brothers, had the checks drawn and signed by Mr. Sigmond
Montag, after which I returned to Forsyth Street and got the leather
bag in which I usually carry the money and coin from the bank, and got
the slip on which I had written the various denominations in which I de-
sired to have the pay roll made out, accompanied by Mr. Herbert Schiff,

my assistant, went to the Atlanta National Bank, where I had the checks
cashed. Returning to the factory, in company with Mr. Schiff, I placed
this bag containing the money for the pay roll in the safe and locked it.
At this time, my wife called for me and in her company and that of Mr.
Schiff, I went over to the car and took my wife home to lunch. After
lunch, I returned to the factory and took a tour for about an hour through
the factory, after which I then assisted Mr. Schiff in checking over the
amounts on the pay envelopes-checking the money against the dupli-
cate slips that we had gotten from the bank, to see that the correct
amount had been given us, and I helped Mr. Schiff checking over the
money and in filling the envelopes. This took us approximately until a
quarter to six, to fill the envelopes, seal them and place them in the box
that we have over there, with two hundred pigeon holes, and which we
call our pay-off box. While I was so occupied with Mr. Schiff in filling
these envelopes, a young man by the name of Wright, who had helped us
out as a clerk in the office during the past week, came in and I paid him
in cash, as Mr. Schiff, I found, neglected to put his name on the pay roll;
I just made out a ticket for the amount of money he drew and put it in
the cash box and charged it to the cash box and not to the pay roll. At a
quarter to six, payment of the help took place, Mr. Schiff taking all the
envelopes that were due the help who had worked from April 18th to
24th, inclusive, out to the pay roll window, which is entirery outside of
either my inner office or the outer office and out in the hall beyond-a lit-
tle window that we have built. I sat in my office checking over the amount
of money which had been left over. This amount was equal-or should
have been equal, to the amount that had been loaned out in advance to
help and had been deducted when we were filling the envelopes. In check-
ing this amount over-as near as I can recollect it, there was about $15
-I noticed a shortage of about $1.20-something over a dollar, at any
rate, and I kept checking to see if I couldn’t find the shortage, going over
the various deductions that had been made, but I couldn’t locate it that
evening. After the help had been paid off, during which time as I sat in
my office, no one came into my office who asked me for a pay envelope or
for the pay envelope of another. After the paying off of the help had
taken place, Mr. Schiff returned and handed me the envelopes which
were left over, bound with an elastic band, and I put them in the cash
compartment-which is different from the cash box-a certain cash com-
partment in the safe, the key to which is kept in my cash box. I placed
them in the safe, and Mr. Schiff busied himself clearing up the books and
the files and placing them in the safe. While he was doing that, I placed
in the time clocks, the slips to be used next day. I took out the two time
slips which were dated April 25th, which had been used by the help on
Friday, April 25th, and took two slips out to the clock, the ends of which
I creased down so that they would fit into the cylinder inside of the
clocks; and I noticed that I had neglected to stamp the date on them, so
I just wrote on them” April 26, 1913′”-in other words, I put the date of
the day following, which is the way we usually do with the time clock.

After placing these slips in the clock and bringing those back in the of-
fice, Mr. Schiff and myself left for home, it being about 6:30. I neglected
to state that while I was sitting in the office, Mr. Schiff was paying off
Newt Lee-these are the two time slips I took out-

Gentlemen, as I was saying, these two slips that had April 26, 1913,
written at the bottom are the two slips I put in the clock on the evening
of Friday, April 25th, to be used on the day following, which, of course,
was April 26th. I neglected to mention also, in going over my duties at
the factory, that Mr. N. V. Darley was superintendent of labor and of
manufacture, it fell to his duty to engage the help and to distribute the
help throughout the plant, and to discharge the help in case it was nec-
essary; it was also due to him whether their wages were raised or not.
In other words, he was the man that came directly in contact with the
help. Moreover, he saw that the goods progressed through the factory
without stopping, easily, quickly and economically manufactured. On
Friday evening, I got home at about 6:30, had my supper, washed up,
then went with my wife to the residence of her uncle, Mr. Carl Wolfs-
heimer, on Washington Street, where my wife and Mr. Wolfsheimer and
his wife and myself played a game of auction bridge for the balance of
the evening. My wife and I returned home and retired at about eleven
o’clock. On Saturday April26th, I rose between seven and seven-thirty
and leisurely washed and dressed, had my breakfast, caught a Washing-
ton Street or Georgia Avenue car-I don’t recall which-at the corner
of Washington and Georgia Avenue, and arrived at the factory on For-
syth Street, the Forsyth Street plant, at about 8:30, is my recollection.

On my arrival at the factory, I found Mr. Holloway, the day watch-
man, at his usual place, and I greeted him in my usual way; I found
Alonzo Mann,the office boy, in the outer office, I took off my coat and hat
and opened my desk and opened the safe, and assorted the various books
and files and wire trays containing the various papers that were placed
there the evening before, and distributed them in their proper places
about the office. I then went out to the shipping room and conversed a
few minutes with Mr. Irby, who at that time was shipping clerk, concern-
ing the work which he was going to do that morning, though, to the best
of my recollection, we did no shipping that day, due to the fact that the
freight offices were notreceiving any shipments, due to its being a holiday.
I returned to my office, and looked through the papers, and assorted out
those which I was going to take over on my usual trip to the General
Manager’s office that morning; I then turned to the invoices (Defend-
ant’s Exhibits 25 to 34) covering shipments which were made by the
pencil factory on Thursday, April 24th, and which were typewritten and
figured out on Friday, April 25th, by Miss Eubanks, the stenographer
who stays in my office; she had hurried through with her work that day,
previous to going home, so she could spend the holiday in the country
where she lived; I didn’t get to checking over those invoices covering

these shipments on Friday, due to the fact that Mr. Schiff and
myself were completely occupied the entire day until we left the fac-
tory, with the pay roll, so naturally, as these invoices covering shipments
which were made on April 25th, ought to have been sent to the customers,
I got right to work in checking them. Now, I have those invoices here
(Defendant’s Exhibits 25 to 34); these papers have not been exhibited
before, but I will explain them. You have seen some similar to these. Of
all the mathematical work in the office of the pencil factory, this very
operation, this very piece of work that I have now before me, is the most
important, it is the invoice covering shipments that are sent to custom-
ers, and it is very important that the prices be correct, that the amount
of goods shipped agrees with the amount which is on the invoice, and
that the terms are correct, and that the address is correct, and also in
some cases, I don’t know whether there is one like that here, there are
freight deductions, all of which have to be very carefully checked over and
looked into, because I know of nothing else that exasperates a customer
more than to receive invoices that are incorrect; moreover, on this morn-
ing, this operation of this work took me longer than it usually takes an
ordinary person to complete the checking of the invoices, because usually
one calls out and the other checks, but I did this work all by myself that
morning, and as I went over these invoices, I noticed that Miss Eubanks,
the day before, had evidently sacrificed accuracy to speed, and every one
of them was wrong, so I had to go alone over the whole invoice, and I had
to make the corrections as I went along, figure them out, extend them,
make deductions for freight, if there were any to be made, and then get
the total shipments, because, when these shipments were made on April
24th, which was Thursday, this was the last day of our fiscal week, it
was on this that I made that financial sheet which I make out every Sat-
urday afternoon, as has been my custom, it is on this figure of total ship-
ments I make that out, so necessarily it would be the total shipments for
the week that had to be figured out, and I had to figure every invoice and
arrange it in its entirety so I could get a figure that I would be able to
use. The first order here is from Hilton, Hart & Kern Company, Detroit,
Mich., here is the original order which is in the file of our office, here is
the transcription which was made on March 28th, it hadn’t been shipped
until April 24th, this customer ordered 100 gross of No. 2 of a certain
pencil stamped “The Packard Motor Car Company,” 125 gross of No. 3
and 50 gross of No. 4; those figures represent the grade or hardness of
the lead in the pencils; we shipped 100 gross of No. 2, 1111/4 gross of No.
3 and 49 gross of No. 4, the amount of the shipment of No. 3 is short of
the amount the customer ordered, therefore, there is a suspense shipment
card attached to it, as you will notice, the first shipment on this order
took place on April 24th, it was a special order and a special imprint on
it, and therefore, the length of time, order received at the factory on
March 18th. In invoicing shipments made by the Pencil Company, our
method is as follows: We make out in triplicate, the first or original is
a white sheet, and that goes to the customers; the second is a pink sheet

and that goes over to the General Manager’s office and is filed serially,
that is, chronologically; one date on the top, and from that the charges
are made on the ledger, and the last sheet or third sheet is a yellow sheet,
which is here, those are placed in a file in my office, and are filed alpha-
betically. These yellow sheets I have here are not the yellow sheets I
had that day, because they have since been corrected, I am just taking
the corrected sheets, I made the corrections. Miss Eubanks returned on
Monday and saw the corrections I had made in pencil on the white sheets,
and made another set of triplicates afterwards, and I presume made
them correct, I was not there, and I don’t know. These orders are re-
spectively Hilton, Hart & Kern Company, L. W. Williams & Company
of Fort Worth, Tex., the Fort Smith Paper Company of Fort Smith,
Ark., S. 0. Barnum & Sons, Buffalo, N. Y., S. T. Warren & Company,
South Clarke St., Chicago, Ill., S. H. Kress Company, warehouse at 91
Franklin St., New York, N. Y.; there is an order that we have to be par-
ticularly careful with, because all these five and ten cent syndicates have
a great deal of red tape. These invoices, though they were typed on
April 25th, Friday, were shipped on April 24th, and bear date at the top
on which the shipment was made, irrespective of the date on which these
are typewritten; in other words, the shipments took place April 24th,
and that date is at the top typewritten, and a stamp by the office boy at
the bottom, April 24th. Among other things that the S. H. Kress Com-
pany demands is that on their orders, you must state whether or not it is
complete, the number of the store, and by which railroad the shipment
goes. Here is one from F. W. Woolworth & Company, Frankfort, Ind.,
take the following illustrations: Less 95 lbs., at 86 cents per hundred
lbs., freight credit; in other words, we had to find out what the weight of
that shipment was, and figure out the amount of credit that they were
entitled to on the basis of 86 cents for every 100 lbs. shipped. Then here
comes one to Gottlieb & Sons, one of our large distributors in New York,
N. Y., they have a freight allowance of 86 per hundred lbs. also, and their
shipment amounted to 618 lbs., on Thursday, April 24th. That was a
shipment of throwouts, or jobs.

I started on this work, as I said, and had gone into it in some detail,
to show you the carefulness with which the work must be carried out, I
was at work on this one at about 9 o’clock, as near as I remember, Mr.
Darley and Mr. Wade Campbell, the inspector of the factory, came into
the outer office, and I stopped what work I was doing that day on this
work, and went to the outer office and chatted with Mr. Darley and Mr.
Campbell for ten or fifteen minutes, and conversed with them, and joked
with them, and while I was talking to them, I should figure about 9:15
o’clock, a quarter after nine, Miss Mattie Smith came in and asked me
for her pay envelope, and for that of her sister-in-law, and I went to the
safe and unlocked it and got out the package of envelopes that Mr. Schiff
had given me the evening before, and gave her the required two envel-
opes, and placed the remaining envelopes that I got out, that were left

over from the day previous, in my cash box, where I would have them
handy in case others might come in, and I wanted to have them near at
hand without having to jump up and go to the safe every time in order to
get them; I keep my cash box in the lower drawer on the left hand side
of my desk. After Miss Smith had gone away with the envelopes, a few
minutes, Mr. Darley came back with the envelopes, and pointed out to
me an error in one of them, either the sister-in-law of Miss Mattie Smith,
she had gotten too much money, and when I had deducted the amount
that was too much, that amount balanced the pay roll, the error in the
pay roll that I had noticed the night before, and left about five or ten
cents over; those things usually right themselves anyhow. I continued
to work on those invoices, when I was interrupted by Mr. Lyons, Super-
intendent of Montag Brothers, coming in, he brought me a pencil dis-
play box that we call the Panama assortment box, and he left it with me,
he seemed to be in a hurry, and I told him if he would wait for a minute
I would go over to Montag Brothers with him, as I was going over there;
and he stepped out to the outer office, and as soon as I come to a conveni-
ent stopping place in the work, I put the papers I had made out to take
with me in a folder, and put on my hat and coat and went to the outer of-
fice, when I found that Mr. Lyons had already left. Mr. Darley left with
me, about 9:35 or 9:40, and we passed out of the factory, and stopped at
the corner of Hunter and Forsyth Streets, where we each had a drink at
Cruickshank’s soda water fount, where I bought a package of Favorite
cigarettes, and after we had our drink, we conversed together there for
some time, and I lighted a cigarette and told him good-bye, as he went in
one direction, and I went on my way then to Montag Brothers, where I
arrived, as nearly as may be, at 10 o’clock, or a little after; on entering
Montag Brothers, I spoke to Mr. Sig Montag, the General Manager of
the business, and then the papers which I collected, which lay on his
desk, I took the papers out and transferred them into the folder, and
took the other papers out, which I had in my folder, and distributed them
at the proper places at Montag Brothers, I don’t know just what papers
they were, but I know there were several of them, and I went on chatting
with Mr. Montag, and I spoke to Mr. Matthews, and Mr. Cross, of the
Montag Brothers, and after that I spoke to Miss Hattie Hall, the Pencil
Company’s stenographer, who stays at Montag Brothers, and asked her
to come over and help me that morning; as I have already told you, prac-
tically every one of these invoices was wrong, and I wanted her to help
me on that work, and in dictating the mail; in fact, I told her I had
enough work to keep her busy that whole afternoon if she would agree
to stay, but she said she didn’t want to do that, she wanted to have at
least half a holiday on Memorial Day. I then spoke to several of the
Montag Brothers’ force on business matters and other matters, and af-
ter that I saw Harry Gottheimer, the sales manager of the National Pen-
cil Company, and I spoke at some length with him in reference to several
of his orders that were in work at the factory, there were two of his or-
ders especially that he laid special stress on, as he said he desired to ship

them right away, and I told him I didn’t know how far along in process
of manufacture the orders had proceeded, but if he would go back with
me then I would be very glad to look for it, and then tell him when we
could ship them, and he said he couldn’t go right away, he was busy, but
he would come a little later, and I told him I would be glad for him to
come over later that morning or in the afternoon, as I would be there
until about 1 o’clock in the morning, and after 3. I then took my folder
and returned to Forsyth St. alone. On arrival at Forsyth St., I went to
second or office floor, and I noticed the clock, it indicated 5 minutes after
eleven. I saw Mr. Holloway there, and I told him he could go as soon as
he got ready, and he told me he had some work to do for Harry Denham
and Arthur White, who were doing some repair work up on the top floor,
and he would do the work first. I then went into the office. I went in the
outer office, and found Miss Hattie Hall, who had preceded me over from
Montag’s, and another lady who introduced herself to me as Mrs. Arthur
White, and the office boy; Mrs. Arthur White wanted to see her husband,
and I went into the inner office, and took off my coat and hat, and removed
the papers which I had brought back from Montag Brothers in the folder,
and put the folder away. It was about this time that I heard the elevator
motor start up and the circular saw in the carpenter shop, which is right
next to it, running. I heard it saw through some boards, which I sup-
posed was the work that Mr. Holloway had referred to. I separated the
orders from the letters which required answers, and took the other ma-
terial, the other printed matter that didn’t need immediate attention, I
put that in various trays, and I think it was about this time that I con-
cluded I would look and see how far along the reports were, which I use
in getting up my financial report every Saturday afternoon, and to my
surprise I found that the sheet which contains the record of pencils
packed for the week didn’t include the report for Thursday, the day the
fiscal week ends; Mr. Schiff evidently, in the stress of getting up, figur-
ing out and filling the envelopes for the pay roll on Friday, instead of,
as usual, on Friday and half the day Saturday, had evidently not had
enough time. I told Alonzo Mann, the office boy, to call up Mr. Schiff,
and find out when he was coming down, and Alonzo told me the answer
came back over the telephone that Mr. Schiff would be right down, so I
didn’t pay any more attention to that part of the work, because I ex-
pected Mr. Schiff to come down any minute. It was about this time that
Mrs. Emma Clarke Freeman and Miss Corinthia Hall, two of the girls
who worked on the fourth floor, came in, and asked permission to go up-
stairs and get Mrs. Freeman’s coat, which I readily gave, and I told them
at the same time to tell Arthur White that his wife was downstairs. A
short time after they left my office, two gentlemen came in, one of them a
Mr. Graham, and the other the father of a boy by the name of Earle Bur-
dette; these two boys had gotten into some sort of trouble during the
noon recess the day before, and were taken down to police headquarters,
and of course didn’t get their envelopes the night before, and I gave the
required pay envelopes to the two fathers, and chatted with them at some

length in reference to the trouble their boys had gotten into the day pre-
vious. And just before they left the office, Mrs. Emma Clark Freeman
and Miss Corinthia Hall came into my office and asked permission to use
the telephone, and they started to the telephone, during which time these
two gentlemen left my office. But previous to that, when these two gen-
tlemen came in, I had gotten Miss Hattie Hall in and dictated what mail
I had to give her, and she went out and was typewriting the mail; before
these girls finished their telephoning, Miss Hattie Hall had finished the
typewriting of those letters and brought them to my desk to read over
and sign, which work I started. Miss Clark and Miss Hall left the office,
as near as may be, at a quarter to twelve, and went out, and I started to
work reading over the letters and signing the mail. I have the carbon
copies (Defendant’s Exhibit 8) of these letters which Miss Hall type-
wrote for me that morning here, attached to the letters from the custom-
ers, or the parties whose letter I was answering; they have been intro-
duced, and have been identified. I see them here-Southern Bargain
House, there was a letter from Shode-Lombard, dye makers, 18 Frank-
lin Street, the American Die Lock Company, Newark, N. J., another let-
ter to Shode-Lombard Company being in New York, one to Henry Diss-
ton & Sons, in reference to a knife which they sent us to be tried out, a
circular knife, one to J. B. McCrory, Five & Ten Cent Syndicate, one to
the Pullman Company, of Chicago, Ill., in reference to their special im-
print pencils, which they were asking us to ship as soon as possible, one
to A. J. Sassener, another die maker; these letters are copies of the ones
I dictated that morning; I signed these letters, and while I was signing,
ag Miss Hall brought these letters in to be signed, I gave her the orders
(Defendant’s Exhibits 14 to 24) which had been received by me that
morning at Montag ‘s office, over at the General Manager’s office, I gave
her these orders to be acknowledged. I will explain our method of ac-
knowledgment of orders in a few minutes. I continued signing the let-
ters and separating the carbon copies from the letters, and putting them
in various places, I folded the letters and sealed the letters, and of course
I told Miss Hall I would post them myself. Miss Hall finished the work
and started to leave when the 12 o’clock whistle blew, she left the office
and returned, it look to me, almost immediately, calling into my office
that she had forgotten something, and then she left for good. Then I
started in, we transcribed, first we enter all orders into the house order
book (Defendant’s Exhibit 12), all these orders which Miss Hall had ac-
knowledged, I entered in that book, and I will explain that matter in de-
tail. There has been some question raised about this, but I believe I can
make it very clear. Here is an order from Beutell Brothers Company
(Defendant’s Exhibit 32) ; the very first operation on an order that is re-
ceived by the pencil factory at Forsyth Street in my office is the acknowl-
edgment; that is the first operation, because the acknowledgment is the
specific second part of the contract, the first part is when they send us
the order; that is the party of the first part, and the party of the second
part is when we write them an acknowledgment card and agree to fill the

order, and enter the order which they send us, and so necessarily, to sat-
isfy our customers, it must be the very first thing that is done, and is the
first thing. The acknowledgment stamp, which you have already seen
here below, shows first two things; first, who acknowledges the order,
and second, the date it was received in the office on Forsyth Street. Here
is one from Beutell Brothers (Defendant’s Exhibit 32); that bears the
date April 23rd, up at the top; that was the date when Beutell Brothers
in Dubuque, Ia., had that letter typewritten, we didn’t know when they
mailed it, but that is the day it was written, it was received at the Gen-
eral Manager’s office, might have been received Friday, on Friday April
25th, after I had gotten the mail that day there, and remained there until
April 26th, when I went over and got the mail again. Here is one from
John Laurie & Sons, and here is one I think Mr. Dorsey did some ques-
tioning about, because of the fact that up here at the top was 4-22, this
order was written in pencil, of course it is written in pencil; this is an
order from F. W. Woolworth & Company (Defendant’s Exhibit 28),
that is a Five & Ten Cent syndicate, as you know, probably the largest
in the world, that has over 700 stores, and these stores would be so bulky
for one office to handle that the 700 stores are divided into different
groups or provinces, and in charge of each group there is a certain office;
for instance, there is one at Toronto, for the Canadian stores; one in
Buffalo, one in Boston, one in New York, there is one at Wilkesbarre, one
at St. Louis, one at Chicago, and one at San Francisco. Now, this order,
by looking at it, I can tell, because I have had reason to look into and
know the system of orders used by this syndicate, and I most assuredly
have to know it, you notice Chicago, Ill., 4-22, down here, and also store
No. 585 (Defendant’s Exhibit 28), the Woolworth Company, 347 E. Main
St., here again is DeKalb, Ill. In other words, DeKalb, Ill., is in the ju-
risdiction of the Chicago office. These blanks are distributed among
these various five and ten cent stores, and the manager of one store,
when he wants to order goods, he finds his stock is getting a little low, he
makes that out and sends his order in to the Chicago office, at the Chicago
office, the buyer looks over it, and sees that the manager has carefully
and economically ordered the goods, and then you will notice that little
stamp punched through; you see up there, that says: “Valid, 4-23,” in
other words, of course, we couldn’t have put that on there at our office,
but the validation stamp, with 4-23, the date of it, shows it took a day to
travel from DeKalb, Ill., to Chicago, Ill., and that stamp shows the vali-
dation of the order on that date by the head office, and that order is then
forwarded by the head office to us. Now, this order is usually made out
by the Manager or by the clerk of the Manager or some one in that F. W.
Woolworth store. Here is one from Wilkesbarre (Defendant’s Exhibit
29), itself, that is from the head office itself. Here is one from St. Joseph,
Mo., (Defendant’s Exhibit 25), via St. Louis, that bears the validation
stamp of the St. Louis head office. You gentlemen understand these peo-
ple are great big people, a great big syndicate, and they have to do their
clerical work according to a system that is correct. Now, then, that was

the first operation on these orders after we separated them from the
other mail, and we hand that on to our Superintendent. I am showing
you about the acknowledgment stamp, because it is important first be-
cause it shows the acknowledgment of the order, and who acknowledged
it, and secondly, shows the date on which the orders were received at my
office. To the best of my recollection, these acknowledgment cards were
given to the office boy to post, after Miss Hall had made them out.

Now, in reference to the work that I. did on these orders, starting
here with order 7187 (Defendant’s Exhibits 25 to 35), and continuing
through 7197, that is not such an easy job as you would have been led to
believe; in the first place, next to the serial number, there is a series of
initials, and those initials stand for the salesman who is credited with
the order; in other words, if a man at the end of the year wants to get
certain commissions on orders that come in, we have to very carefully
look over those orders to see to whom or to which salesman or to which
commission house or which distributing agent that order is credited, so,
therefore, it takes a good deal of judgment and knowledge to know just
to which salesman to credit, and sometimes, I can’t say that it was incor-
rect that morning, but it might have been, sometimes I have to go through
a world of papers to find just to whom a certain order is to be credited.
Then I enter in (Defendant’s Exhibit 12) the various orders here, too,
the next column shows to whom the goods are to be shipped; of course
that is not very difficult to do, that is just a mere copy. The store num-
bers are put down in case the stores have numbers, and then one must
look over the order; I notice that one of the orders is one to R. E. Kendall
(Defendant’s Exhibit 34), at Plum St., Cincinnati, 0., calling for a spe-
cial, and that has to be noted in this column here, you will notice regular
or special, notice here the word special out here opposite R. E. Kendall,
that thing has to be very carefully noted also. Now, in this column (De-
fendant’s Exhibit 12) is the order number, and that order number is the
customer’s order number, to which we have to refer always when we ship
that order. Now, in these cases like on these Woolworth orders, when
there is no order number, we put down the date with the month, so in that
way that gives it, 4-22, that was the date the order was made out, so we
can absolutely refer to it; in this column (Defendant’s Exhibit 12), is the
shipping point and the date we are going to ship it, and in this column
represents the date on which the order was received, and the month,
which is April 26th, according to the acknowledgment, corresponding to
the acknowledgment stamp. Now, after that work, after the order was
acknowledged and entered in here (Defendant’s Exhibit 12), the next
step is the filling in on the proper place on this sheet (Defendant’s Ex-
hibit 2), which has already been tendered and identified. Now, the work
done by me on that day right here, that was Saturday, Saturday is the
second day of the fiscal week, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tues-
day, Wednesday and Thursday-Saturday is the second day, and you
will notice, gentlemen, there are only two entries there (Defendant’s Ex-

hibit 7), the work not having been done since I left the factory, there are
only two entries there, and the last entry is April 26th, which was Satur-
day. Now, then, the information on this sheet is as follows: I go through
the orders and find out the number of gross of pencils which our custom-
ers order which fall in certain price groups, that is, to find the number of
gross of pencils for which the pencil factory gets 60 cents a gross, and I
put them down under the first column, the second under the column RI,
which means rubber inserted, and for which we get an average price of
80 cents, I go through the same thing and put the figures all out, in this
case, it was 102; then we have a price group on which we get an average
of $1.25, and it covers a range in price from $1.00 per gross to $1.40;
there were 116 gross of such pencils ordered with these orders which were
received that morning. The next price group are those on which we fig-
ure on an average price of $1.75 a gross, and falling within those limits
of $1.50 to $1.95 inclusive; in this case, there were 341/2 gross; then there
is a group between $2.00 and $2.95, averaging $2.50, and there was 1001/2
gross that day, then $3.00 and over, which we always figure at just $3.00,
we have goods that we get $3.25 for, and some that we get $3.50 for, but
we figure them all at $3.00, so it is a conservative estimate. The reason
this is done is this; in the pencil business, just like in all manufacturing
businesses, that is manufacturing an article that has to be turned out in
large quantities, it behooves the sales department to sell as much of your
high priced goods as possible, and as few of your cheap goods, and there-
fore, if you know how many of the cheap goods and how many of the bet-
ter grade of goods you are selling, it serves as a barometer on the class
of goods that is being sold. You can see that this job takes quite a little
figuring and quite a little judgment.

After finishing that work, I went on to the transcription of these or-
ders to these requisitions (Defendant’s Exhibits 25 to 35), and notwith-
standing an answer that has been made, I wrote these requisitions my-
self. That is my handwriting and you can read every one of them
through. Here is one F. W. Woolworth (Defendant’s Exhibit 25), I
wrote that one, and another one F. W. Woolworth (Defendant’s Exhibit
26), I wrote that one, and another one F. W. Woolworth (Defendant’s
Exhibit 29). Here is one 5 and 10 Cent Store, Sault Ste Marie (Defend-
ant’s Exhibit 31), I wrote that one, and here is F. W. Woolworth,
DeKalb, Ill. (Defendant’s Exhibit 28), and Logansport, Ind. (Defend-
ant’s Exhibit 27). That is all my handwriting; excepting the amounts
that are placed down here under the dates when the shipment of these
orders were made, which is in the handwriting of my assistant, Mr.
Schiff. This part, the amount, date, numbers, addresses, salesman, date
April 26th, and the order number, taking the date in lieu of the order
number, as I explained previously, that is all my handwriting-every-
thing except that amount there and the subsequent date, that is in my
handwriting and the work on all of those was done on the morning of
April 26th.

Miss Hall left my office on her way home at this time, and to the best
of my information there were in the building Arthur White and Harry
Denham and Arthur White’s wife on the top floor. To the best of my
knowledge, it must have been from ten to fifteen minutes after Miss Hall
left my office, when this little girl, whom I afterwards found to be Mary
Phagan, entered my office and asked for her pay envelope. I asked for
her number and she told me; I went to the cash box and took her envel-
ope out and handed it to her, identifying the envelope by the number.
She left my office and apparently had gotten as far as the door from my
office leading to the outer office, when she evidently stopped and asked
me if the metal had arrived, and I told her no. She continued on her way
out, and I heard the sound of her footsteps as she went away. It was a
few moments after she asked me this question that I had an impression
of a female voice saying something; I don’t know which way it came
from; just passed away and I had that impression. This little girl had
evidently worked in the metal department by her question and had been
laid off owing to the fact that some metal that had been ordered had not
arrived at the factory; hence, her question. I only recognized this little
girl from having seen her around the plant and did not know her name,
simply identifying her envelope from her having called her number to
me.

She had left the plant hardly five minutes when Lemmie Quinn, the
foreman of the plant, came in and told me that I could not keep him away
from the factory, even though it was a holiday; at which I smiled and
kept on working. He first asked me if Mr. Schiff had come down and I
told him he had not and he turned around and left. I continued work un-
til I finished this work and these requisitions and I looked at my watch
and noticed that it was a quarter to one. I called my home up on the tele-
phone, for I knew that my wife and my mother-in-law were going to the
matinee and I wanted to know when they would have lunch. I got my
house and Minola answered the phone and she answered me back that
they would have lunch immediately and for me to come right on home. I
then gathered my papers together and went upstairs to see the boys on
the top floor. This must have been, since I had just looked at my watch,
10 minutes to one. I noticed in the evidence of one of the witnesses, Mrs.
Arthur White, she states it was 12:35 that she passed by and saw me.
That is possibly true; I have no recollection about it; perhaps her recol-
lection is better than mine; I have no remembrance of it; however, I ex-
pect that is so. When I arrived up stairs I saw Arthur White and Harry
Denham who had been working up there and Mr. White’s wife. I asked
them if they were ready to go and they said they had enough work to keep
them several hours. I noticed that they had laid out some work and I had
to see what work they had done and were going to do. I asked Mr.
White’s wife if she was going or would stay there as I would be obliged
to lock up the factory, and Mrs. White said, no, she would go then. I
went down and gathered up my papers and locked my desk and went
around and washed my hands and put on my hat and coat and locked the
inner door to my office and locked the doors to the street and started to
go home.

Now, gentlemen, to the best of my recollection from the time the
whistle blew for twelve o’clock until after a quarter to one when I went
up stairs and spoke to Arthur White and Harry Denham, to the best of
my recollection, I did not stir out of the inner office; but it is possible that
in order to answer a call of nature or to urinate I may have gone to the
toilet. Those are things that a man does unconsciously and cannot tell
how many times nor when he does it. Now, sitting in my office at my
desk, it is impossible for me to see out into the outer hall when the safe
door is open, as it was that morning, and not only is it impossible for me
to see out, but it is impossible for people to see in and see me there.

I continued on up Forsyth to Alabama and down Alabama to White-
hall where I waited a few minutes for a car, and after a few minutes a
Georgia Avenue car came along; I took it and arrived home at about
1:20. When I arrived at home, I found that my wife and my mother-in-
law were eating their dinner, and my father-in-law had just sat down and
started his dinner. I sat down to my dinner and before I had taken any-
thing, I turned in my chair to the telephone, which is right behind me and
called up my brother-in-law to tell him that on account of some work I
had to do at the factory, I would be unable to go with him, he having in-
vited me to go with him out to the ball game. I succeeded in getting his
residence and his cook answered the phone and told me that Mr. Ursen-
bach had not come back home. I told her to give him a message for me,
that I would be unable to go with him. I turned around and continued
eating my lunch, and after a few minutes my wife and mother-in-law fin-
ished their dinner and left and told me good-bye. My father-in-law and
myself continued eating our dinner, Minola McKnight serving us. After
finishing dinner, my father-in-law said he would go out in the back yard
to look after his chickens and I lighted a cigarette and laid down. After
a few minutes I got up and walked up Georgia Avenue to get a car. I
missed the ten minutes to two car and I looked up and saw in front of
Mr. Wolfsheimer’s residence, Mrs. Michael, an aunt of my wife who lives
in Athens, and there were several ladies there and I went up there to see
them and after a few minutes Mrs. Wolfsheimer came out of the house
and I waited there until I saw the Washington Street car coming and I
ran up and saw that I could catch the car. I got on the car and talked to
Mr. Loeb on the way to town. The car got to a point about the intersec-
tion of Washington Street and Hunter Street and the fire engine house
and there was a couple of cars stalled up ahead of us, the cars were wait-
ing there to see the memorial parade; they were all banked up. After it
stood there a few minutes as I did not want to wait, I told Mr. Loeb that
I was going to get out and go on as I had work to do. So I went on down
Hunter Street, going in the direction of Whitehall and when I got down

to the corner of Whitehall and Hunter, the parade had started to come
around and I could not get around at all and I had to stay there fifteen or
twenty minutes and see the parade. Then I walked on down Whitehall
on the side of M. Rich & Bros. ‘s store towards Brown and Allen; when I
got in front of M. Rich & Bros.’ store, I stood there between half past 2
and few minutes to 3 o’clock until the parade passed entirely; then I
crossed the street and went on down to Jacobs and went in and pur-
chased twenty-five cents worth of cigars. I then left the store and went
on down Alabama Street to Forsyth Street and down Forsyth Street to
the factory, I unlocked the street door and then unlocked the inner door
and left it open and went on upstairs to tell the boys that I had come back
and wanted to know if they were ready to go, and at that time they were
preparing to leave. I went immediately down to my office and opened
the safe and my desk and hung up my coat and hat and started to work
on the financial report, which I will explain. Mr. Schiff had not come
down and there was additional work for me to do.

In a few minutes after I started to work on the financial sheet (De-
fendant’s Exhibit 2), which I am going to take up in a few minutes. I
heard the bell ring on the time clock outside and Arthur White and Harry
Denham came into the office and Arthur White borrowed $2.00 from me
in advance on his wages. I had gotten to work on the financial sheet, fig-
uring it out, when I happened to go out to the lavatory and on returning
to the office, the door pointed out directly in front, I noticed Newt Lee,
the watchman, coming from towards the head of the stairs, coming to-
wards me. I looked at the clock and told him the night before to come
back at 4 o’clock for I expected to go to the base ball game. At that time
Newt Lee came along and greeted me and offered me a banana out of a
yellow bag which he carried, which I presume contained bananas; I de-
clined the banana and told him that I had no way of letting him know
sooner that I was to be there at work and that I had changed my mind
about going to the ball game. I told him that he could go if he wanted to
or he could amuse himself in any way he saw fit for an hour and a half,
but to be sure and be back by half past six o’clock. He went off down
the stair case leading out and I returned to my office. Now, in reference
to Newt Lee, the watchman, the first night he came there to watch, I per-
sonally took him around the plant, first, second and third floors and into
the basement, and told him that he would be required, that it was his duty
to go over that entire building every half hour; not only to completely
tour the upper four floors but to go down to the basement, and I specially
stressed the point that that dust bin along here was one of the most dan-
gerous places for a fire and I wanted him to be sure and go back there
every half hour and be careful how he held his lantern. I told him it was
a part of his duty to look after and lock that back door and he fully un-
derstood it, and I showed him the cut-off for the electric current and told
him in case of fire that ought to be pulled so no fireman coming in would
be electrocuted. I explained everything to him in detail and told him he

was to make that tour every half hour and stamp it on the time card and
that that included the basement of the building.

Now, this sheet here is the factory record (Defendant’s Exhibit 7),
containing the lists of the pencils in stock and the amount of each and
every number; the amount of each and every one of our pencils which we
manufacture at the end of any given week. There are no names there.
We make the entries on this sheet by trade notes. Here is a sample case
containing the pencils which are manufactured at the Forsyth Street
plant. That is just as an explanation of what these figures are.

Well, I expect you have gotten enough of a glance at them for you
know that there are a great many pencils and a great many colors, all
sorts and styles; all sorts of tips, all sorts of rubbers, all sorts of stamps
-I expect there are 140 pencils in that roll. That shows the variety of
goods we manufacture. We not only have certain set numbers that we
manufacture, but we will manufacture any pencil to order for any cus-
tomer who desires a sufficient number of a special pencil, into a grade
similar to our own pencil. Now, this pencil sheet (Def. ‘s Ex. 7) when I
looked at it about half past eleven or thereabouts on Saturday morning,
was incomplete. It had the entry for Thursday, April 24th, omitted.
Mr. Schiff had entered the production for April 18th, 19th, 22nd and
23rd, but he had omitted the entry for the 24th, and the 24th not being
there, of course it was not totaled or headed, so it became necessary to
look in this bunch of daily reports (Defendant’s Exhibits 4a, 4b, 4c, 4d)
which was handed in every day by the packing forelady, sort out the va-
rious pencils noted on there, and place them in their proper places. Be-
fore proceeding further on that, I want to call your attention to the fact
that we use this sheet (Defendant’s Exhibit 7) for two weeks. You no-
tice two weeks ending down there April 27th, April 17th, and one ending
the week later, April 24th. Mr. Schiff, I notice, put April 17th at the top
and the date corresponds to the entries here on the side; these are the
dates alongside of each entry. Now, where we have any special pencil,
as a general rule-for instance, take two 10-X special up there; we manu-
facture two 10-X special for the Cadillac Motor Company. Now, there
is a 660-X pencil (Defendant’s Exhibit 7); that 660-X pencil we call
Panama, but in this entry it is called Cracker-Jack. Now, here is an-
other 660-X special (Defendant’s Exhibit 7), ours being Panama and
this the Universal 660-X special. In other words, gentlemen, we put the
name of the customer, if he wants business in a sufficient quantity. Well,
I had to go through this report for Thursday (Defendant’s Exhibit 4a),
handed in by Miss Flowers, the forelady of the packing department, as
she said, on Friday; I had to go through it and make the entries. Now,
after I made the entries, I had to total each number for itself; that is, the
number of 10-X, 20-X, 30-X, etc. Now, I notice that both of the expert
accountants who got on the stand, pointed out two errors. While those
errors are trivial, yet there is enough of human pride in me to explain

that those errors were not mine. Those errors, one of 11/2 gross and one
of one gross, in totalling up, these totals here on the 18th and 19th-
those entries were made by Mr. Schiff. I don’t expect he meant to make
an error, but they happen to be in his handwriting. Those totals were
already down there for the various days when I got the sheet and I al-
ways take them as correct without any checking of his figures. The only
figures that I check are my own figures. I add my correct figures to his
figures and, of course, not having checked the figures, I had to assume he
entered it correctly, so I would not have known it. As I say, my usual
method is to take his figures as correct per se. Now, after I entered them
in the total, the next thing I did was to make out the job sheet; the job or
throw-outs. Now in regard to these jobs, if I recall it correctly, was the
only error that the expert accountant found in my work on the financial
sheet for that day, but it really was not an error, as I will show you. He
didn’t know my method of doing that, and therefore, he could not know
the error. When I explain to you fully the method in which I arrived at
these figures you also will see they are not in error. Now among the pack-
ing reports that are handed into the office just like Miss Eula May handed
this (Defendant’s Exhibit 4a) in from the packing room proper, there is
another room where pencils are packed, viz.: the department under the
foreladyship of Miss Fannie Atherton, head of the job department. The
jobs are our seconds or throw-outs for which we get less money, of
course, than for the first. You see that Fannie A. (Defendant’s Exhibit
4b), that is Fannie Atherton. That is the job department. Now, I took
each of those job sheets (Defendant’s Exhibit 4b) and separated them
from the rest of those sheets, finding out how many jobs of the various
kinds were packed that week. Now, this sheet (Defendant’s Exhibit 3)
shows that there were 12 different kinds of jobs packed that day. Each
of them, you will notice, has a different price. That is the number of
jobs 0-95, or the number of job 114 (Defendant’s Exhibit 3) ; that is the
number of the job, not the amount, but the number by which it is sold.
Out here (Defendant’s Exhibit 3) you see the amount of that job which
was packed; 180 gross, 1 gross, six gross, 24 gross, etc. Then you will
find the actual price we received for each. Then I make the extensions
and find the number of gross of pencils, 180 gross at 40c, of course, is $72
(Defendant’s Exhibit 3). In other words, there is the actual number of
jobs packed that day, the price we actually got for them, and the exten-
sions are accurate and the totals are correct; the total amount of gross
is totaled correctly, the total gross packed and the total amount of the
value of those gross are the two figures that are put on that financial re-
port (Defendant’s Exhibit 2), 792 gross jobs, $396.75 (Defendant’s Ex-
hibit 3), being absolutely correct, but in getting the average price, you
notice 50.1 cents down below here (Defendant’s Exhibit 3), I just worked
it approximately, because nobody cares if it costs so small a fraction-
the average price of those jobs, 50.1 cents, and six hundredths-that six
hundredths was so small I couldn’t handle it, so I stopped at the first dec-
imal. Now, in arriving at the total number of gross and the total value

of pencils, which are the two figures really important, I divided one by
the other. I also used, in getting up the data for the financial sheet here,
by the way, one of the most important sheets is this sheet here.
(Defendant’s Exhibit 3). It looks very small, but the work connected
with it is very large. Now, some of the items that appear on here are
gotten from the reports which are handed in by the various forewomen.
Now, you saw on the stand this morning Mr. Godfrey Winekauf, the su-
perintendent of the lead plant; there is a report (Defendant’s Exhibit 4c)
of the amount of lead delivered that week, two pages of it; the different
kinds of lead, No. 10 lead, No. 940, No. 2 and No. 930, and so on. Now,
here is a pencil with a little rubber stuck on the end; we only put six
inches of lead in that, and stick rubber in the rest. Now here (Defend-
ant’s Exhibit 4d) is the report of L. A. Quinn, foreman of the tipping
plant. He reports on this the amount of work of the various machines,
that is, the large eyelet machine, the small eyelet machine and the other
machines. Then he notates the amount of the various tips used that he
had made that week. Now, we have, I expect, 22 different kinds of tips,
and one of them is a re-tip, and we never count a re-tip as a production.
Now, this was made out (Defendant’s Exhibit 7) for the week ending
April 24 by Mr. Irby, the shipping clerk, that is, the amount of gross of
pencils that he ships day by day. There were shipped 266 gross the first
day, which was Friday in this case, Friday the 18th of April, 562 gross
the 2nd day, which was Saturday, a half day, the 19th of April; 784 gross
on Monday which was April 21; 1232 gross (that was an exceptional day)
were shipped on Tuesday April 22nd; 572 gross shipped on Wednesday,
April 23rd, and 957 gross, also a very large day, shipped on April 24th,
a total of 4374 gross. Now, there is another little slip of paper (Defend-
ant’s Exhibit 4aa) here that requires one of the most complicated calcu-
lations of this entire financial, and I will explain it. It shows the repack,
and I notice an error on it here, it says here 4-17, when it ought to be
4-18; in other words, it goes from 4-17 through 4-24. That repack is got-
ten up by Miss Eula May; you will notice it is 0. K’d by her. Miss Eula
May Flowers, the forelady, packed that; that is the amount of pencils
used in our assortment boxes or display boxes. That is one of the tricks
of the trade, when we have some slow mover, some pencil that doesn’t
move very fast, we take something that is fancy and put some new bright
looking pencils with them, with these slow movers. That is a trick that
all manufacturers use, and in packing these assortment boxes, which are
packed under the direction of Miss Flowers, we send into the shipping
room and get some pencils which have already been packed, pencils that
have been on the shelf a year for all we know, and bring them in and un-
pack them and re-pack them in the display box. Therefore, it is very
necessary in figuring out the financial sheet to notice in detail the amount
of goods packed and just how many of those pencils had already been
figured on some past financial report. We don’t want to record it twice,
or else our totals will be incorrect. Therefore, this little slip showing
the amount of goods which were repacked is very necessary. That was

figured by me, and was figured by me on that Saturday afternoon, April
22nd. There were 18 gross of 35-X pencils selling for $1.25; 18 gross for
$22.50. It shows right here, I figured that out. That is my writing right
down there. Eighteen gross 35-X, $1.25, $22.50; 10 gross of 930-X figur-
ing at $25.00; that added up, as you will see, to $70.00. In other words,
there were 40 gross of pencils, 36 gross of which sell in our medium price
goods; 86 gross 35-X; 10 gross 930-X, $2.50, that is a high price goods.
Therefore, the repack for that week was 36 gross medium priced goods
and 10 gross of high price goods. I will show you now where the $70.00
is and where the’36 gross is, and where the 10 gross figured in the finan-
cial sheet. There is a little sheet (Defendant’s Exhibit 7a) stuck up here
in the corner attached to the record-the factory record of pencils manu-
factured during that week. That shows the production, divided into the
following classes (Defendant’s Exhibit 7a) ; cheap goods, the very cheap-
est we make, outside of jobs, those we figure at 60 cents a gross. Then
there is the rubber insert, those we figure 85 cents a gross, and then the
job and then the medium; the medium being all goods up to a certain
grade that contains the cheap lead, and the good being all those that con-
tain a better class of lead. In this case, Mr. Schiff had entered it up to
and through Wednesday, and had failed to enter Thursday, and I had to
enter Thursday, and to figure it. This sheet (Defendant’s Exhibit 7a)
shows the total of the three classes of goods packed from day to day.
Now, I have had very few clerks at Forsyth Street, or anywhere else, for
that matter, who could make out this sheet (Defendant’s Exhibit 2) suc-
cessfully and accurately. It involves a great deal of work and one has to
exercise exceptional care and accuracy in making it out. You notice that
the gross production here (Defendant’s Exhibit 2) is 27651/2. That gives
the net production. The gross production is nothing more than the addi-
tion, the total addition, the proven addition of those sheets containing
-the pencils packed. This other little sheet (Def. ‘s Ex. 7a) behind here
represents the pencils packed the week of April 17-that week’s produc-
tion. Now, this little sheet I had to work on, showing pencils that were
repacked, going into display boxes, and the numbers, and subtracted that
from total amount 46 from 27651/2, which leaves 27191/2; in other words, I
just deducted the amount that had been taken out of the stock room and
repacked from the total amount that was stated to be packed, showing
the amount of repacked goods. Now all I had to do was to copy that off,
it had been figured once. The value of the repack was $70.00; that was
mere copying. Now, the rubber insert entries, I got those that morning,
the number of pencils packed during the week ending April 24th; that is
Thursday, April 24th; that insert rubber is a rubber stuck directly into
wood with a metal tip or ferret to hold it in. I have to go through all of
this data, that being an awfully tedious job, not a hard job, but very
tedious; it eats up time. I had to go through each one of these, and not
only have to see the number, but I have to know whether it is rubber in-
sert or what it is, and then I put that down on a piece of scratch paper,
and place it down here, in this case it was 720 gross. Then the rubber

tipping, that means tipped with rubber; that is the rubber that is used
on the medium priced pencils that have the medium prices, we ship with
the cheap shipping. I had to go through this operation again, a tedious
job, and it eats up time; it is not hard, but it is tedious. I had to go
through that again, to find out the amount of tip rubber that was used
on this amount of pencils. Then I had to go through the good pencils.
Now, it has been insinuated that some of these items, especially this item,
if I remember correctly-that when I have gotten two of the items, I can
add it all up and subtract from the total to get the third by deduction,
but that is not so. Of the pencils that still remain unaccounted for, there
are many pencils that don’t take rubber at all. There are jobs that don’t
take rubber on them, plain common pencils, going pencils that don’t have
rubber on them at all, and I have to go through all of that operation, that
tedious operation again that eats up so much time. Then there is the
lead of the various kinds that we use; there is a good lead and cheap lead,
the large lead and the thick or carbon lead, and the copying lead. That
same operation has to be gone through with again. Now this sheet (De-
fendant’s Exhibit 3) (exhibiting) is where the expert accountant said I
made a mistake. I had to go through with each of those pencils to see if
they were cheap rubber or if they were good lead or copying lead. So I
had to go through this same operation and re-add them to see that the
addition is correct before I can arrive at the proper figure. The same
way to find the good lead and the cheap lead, the large lead and the copy-
ing lead; that operation had to be gone through in detail with each and
every one of those, and the same with each of the boxes, and that is a
tough job. Some of the pencils are packed in one gross boxes and some
in half-gross boxes, and, as I say, we use a display box, and there are
pencils that are put in individual boxes, and we have to go through care-
fully to see the pencils that have been packed for the whole week, and it
is a very tedious job. Now in these boxes there is another calculation in-
volved, and then I have to find the assortment boxes, but that is easily
gotten. Then I have to find out whether they are half-gross boxes or one-
gross boxes, and then reduce them to the basis of boxes that cost us two
cents apiece; reduce them to the basis of the ordinary box that we paid
two cents a box. After finding out all the boxes, then I have to reduce
that to some common factor, so I can make the multiplication in figuring
out the cost at two cents. That involves quite a mathematical manipula-
tion. Then I come to the skeleton. Skeletons are no more than just a
trade name. They are just little cardboard tiers to keep one pencil away
from the other, that is all a skeleton is. I have to go through and find
out which pencils are skeletons. If it is a cheap pencil they are just tied
up with a cord, and there are pencils in a bunch, and there are pencils
that we don’t use the skeleton with. That must all be gone through and
gotten correctly, or it will be of no worth. Then comes the tip delivery,
which is gotten from this report from Mr. Lemmie Quinn that I showed
you before. Then there is another entry on this sheet of the tips used
and I can give you a clear explanation of the manner that I arrive at that.

You can’t use tips when you don’t have some rubber stuck in it, so I just
had to go through the rubber used to find that. Then we have what we
call ends; there are a few gross of them there. Then the wrappers. Pen-
cils that are packed in the individual one-dozen cartons don’t take wrap-
pers; they are in a box. Pencils that are packed in the display boxes
don’t take a wrapper; they just stick up in a hole by themselves. The
cheap pencils are tied with a cord and they don’t take any wrapper, so
the same operation, the same tedious operation, had to be gone through
with that to get at the number of wrappers, and then the different num-
ber of gross and the number of carton boxes used in the same way. On
the right hand side of this sheet you notice the deliveries. There is the
lead delivery from the Bell Street plant and the Forsyth Street plant.
This doesn’t mean the amount of lead used in the pencils packed for this
week only, but it shows the amount of our lead plant delivery, for infor-
mation. Then the slat delivery, that is not worked out that week; that
is not worked out simply because that is Mr. Schiff’s duty to work that
out and that is a very tedious and long job and when I started in to do
that I couldn’t find the sheet showing the different deliveries of slats
from the mill, so I let that go, intending to put that in on Monday, but on
Monday following I was at the police station.

I took out from this job sheet (Defendant’s Exhibit 3), the correct
amount of gross packed-791 as figured there-correct value $396.75, as
shown on this sheet, and the average is that one, that I didn’t carry out
to two decimal places; I didn’t carry it to but one. Then from the pay
roll book I got the pay roll for Forsyth Street and Bell Street, and then
as a separate item took out from the pay roll book total, separate the
machine shop, which that week was $70.00. The shipments (Defendant’s
Exhibit 6), were figured for the week ending April 24th on this sheet, as
far as I-oh, you notice the entry of the 24th; those are those invoices,
the first piece of work that I explained to you, sitting up there; I ex-
plained that from the chair, and couldn’t come down here; that’s the
piece of work that I explained to you how we did it in triplicate. That’s
the work that I did that morning, and completed, as I told you, that each
of the invoices was wrong, and I had to correct them as I went along,
simply because I needed it on the financial, and there’s where I entered
it on the sheet as shipments; (Defendant’s Exhibit 6) ; I needed that so
as to make the total; and that’s where I entered it-(Defendant’s Ex-
hibit 6-shipments, the 24th, on this sheet (Defendant’s Exhibit 6), dur-
ing the afternoon $1,245.57, and totalling it up, the pencil factory shipped
that week $5,438.78. Those amounts you see are entered right in there,
and the amount of shipments is gotten from this report $4,374.00 handed
in by Mr. Irby, and the value of the shipments are gotten from this sheet,
the last entry on which I had to make.

Then the orders received. The entry of the orders received that
day involved absolutely no more work on my part than the mere transfer

of the entries. On this big sheet (Defendant’s Exhibit 2), I have here
the orders received are in terms of “total gross” and “total value,” and
we need that to compare the amount of shipments with the amount of
orders we are receiving to see whether we are shipping more than we are
receiving, or receiving more than we are shipping. That amount is given
here. Down there it tells you the total amount of dollars and cents of all
the orders received, total gross, and the average. The average is impor-
tant, though it is usually taken over on a separate paper on Friday morn-
ing to Mr. Sig Montag so that he knows how sales for the week have come
out long before he receives the financial. He didn’t receive the financial
usually until Monday morning, when I go over there.

Now one of the most intricate operations in the making up of the
financial report is the working out of the figures on that pencil sheet, as
shown by that torn little old sheet here, (Defendant’s Exhibit 3), that
data sheet. Now with this in hand, and with that pencil sheet record of
pencils packed (Defendant’s Exhibit 7), the financial report is made out.
This sheet (Defendant’s Exhibit 2), the financial, I may say is the child
of my own brain, because I got it up. The first one that ever was made
I made out, and the fact that there is a certain blue line here, and a cer-
tain red line there, and a black line there, and certain printing on it, is
due to me, because I got this sheet up myself. On one side you notice
” Expense, ” or two main headings ” Expense,” ” Materials.” Together
they comprise the expense for the week. On the other side, like the debit
and credit sides of a ledger, is the “Value,” ” I Gross Value” of the goods,
which have been packed up during a given week. Down here below you
will notice “Less Repacked.” You remember the repacked, that I told
you about, the pencils taken out of stock and re-packed to make them
move better. That value is deducted, so that it won’t allow error to en-
ter into this figure. Then we take off 12 per cent. down at the bottom.
That 12 per cent. allows for freight allowances, cash discounts, and pos-
sibly other allowances, and gives us the net value or the net amount of
money for those pencils, which the treasury of the Pencil Company re-
ceives in the last analysis.

On the other side is the materials, the cost of materials, that went
into the making of those pencils, based on the amounts and kinds of pen-
cils, which, of course, as in this instance, comes from the data sheet.

The first item under “Expense” items is “Labor,” and the labor is
divided, as you all know, into the two classes, direct and indirect. The
direct labor is that which goes directly into the making of the pencils
themselves, and the indirect constitutes the supervising, shipping, office,
clerical help, and so forth. These figures are brought directly from the
pay roll. The indirect labor, however-as in this case $155.00-is an
empirical figure, a figure, which we have found out by experiment to be
the correct figure, and we arbitrarily decide on it, and keep it until such

time as we think we ought to change it and then change. The burden
that a business has to carry is the fixed charges, the expense that it car-
ries, irrespective of whether it will produce two gross or 200,000 gross,
like rent, insurance, light, heat, power and the sales department. The
sales department expense usually goes on whether the salesman sells lit-
tle or big bills; his salary goes on and his expense goes on. Rent, heat,
light, power, sales department men, and all that, is figured out, as you
could find by looking back, continuously from week to week, and there is
no work other than jotting it down to figure in this total.

The repair sundries is also arbitrary at $150.00. The machine shop,
however, is available. It appears alongside of “Investment.” “Invest-
ment” is crossed out, and “Machine Shop” written in. There is a rea-
son for that. The time was at the inception of our business when every
machine built by us was so much additional added to the value of our
plant. In other words, it was like investing more money in it, in the
plant, but the time came, when we quit making machines, and then we
simply kept them in repair, and we charged that to expense, crossing out
“Investment” and putting down “Machine Shop” as an expense item.

The material is arrived at on the basis, gross, net. The gross basis
is the total amount of pencils packed, as per the packing reports handed
in by Miss Eula May Flowers, and the net basis is the total amount, total
gross, packed by report of Miss Eula May Flowers less the amount of re-
packed, of which I have spoken. In this case the gross amount was 2,851
gross, net 2,8301/2 gross, the smaller being the net figure. The slats are
figured at 22 cents per gross, and that’s simply taking the 2,8301/2 gross
down to the slat item, and multiplying that by 22 cents, and putting it
down to the materials. Then from the figures derived from the packing
reports we figure rubbers used according to the character or grade of
the pencil manufactured; 61/2 cents cheapest, 9 cents medium, 14 cents
high grade. Then comes the tips. The tips is simple, gotten by adding
together the amounts of rubber used in ferrules, the medium rubber, and
the better class of rubber. In other words, it’s gotten by adding together
the rubber at 9 cents a gross, and the rubber at 14 cents a gross, and add-
ing together the total amount of gross used. And you see it says “mate-
rials,” and it is reckoned at 10 cents; in other words, the materials used
in making the tips in that tip plant we figured at 10 cents a gross, and
the labor is included in that pay roll item up above. Then there is 25
gross of these medium ends.

Then the lead, which is used, is taken from this sheet, multiplying
15 cents for the better lead and 10 cents for the cheaper lead. Then 5
cents a gross has been figured out after months of careful keeping track
of what we use to include such materials as shellac, alcohol, lacquer, ani-
line, waxent, and oils-that’s oils used in manufacture, not for lubrica-
tion of transmission or machinery. It also includes that haskolene corn-

pound, of which we have heard so much. That’s included in this 5 cents
per gross.

Then comes the boxes at 2 cents a gross, then assortment boxes at
an average of 4 cents a gross; then come wrappers at one cent a gross;
that is the number of wrappers used in wrapping up one gross of pencils
are worth one cent. Then cartons, boxes, holding one gross of pencils,
figured at 28 or 18 cents. Then down below “pay roll Bell Street,
$175.21.” Then show what was delivered, just a plain copy of what I
have on this sheet. I have been looking at the sheet for the week ending
April 17th, but it is practically the same way. I have here down on the
bottom of this financial (Defendant’s Exhibit 2) made out on the 26th
what’s delivered, good and cheap. There is no entry there. You will re-
member I said I didn’t work that out. I put that out there preparatory
to working that out Monday morning before I would take it over. Then
it tells tips delivered from Mr. Quinn’s report.

Now on the right side you will notice this entry, “Better grades,
gross, net.” From this small sheet we get total of better grades, 710
gross. Then right below it says 700 gross net. There are 710 gross,
and on that repacked sheet I called out there 10 gross good goods
repacked, therefore the difference of 10 gross. Then we look on down
this pencil sheet, cut down each and every one of the items accordingly
-you will notice in some places I marked some items, “142 1-2 2-10-X”
-and so on down the sheet. In this case there were 29 or 30 different
items, all of which had to have the prices correctly traced down, exten-
sions correctly made, checked, re-checked, added up, and totaled, and
checked back, and there pack had to be deducted, after which the 12 per
cent. had to be figured out, and deducted, giving net value of the produc-
tion for that week. Then we take the net value of the production that
week, and from it take the total amount of expense, and materials used,
the expense including labor, rent, light, insurance, and so forth, and, if
this expense is greater than the value of the pencils, then the factory has
operated that week at a loss. In this case a deficit shows, showing that
that week we operated at a loss. The shipments were gotten off down
there from this sheet. Those are my initials on the top.

Now, besides the making of this large sheet (Defendant’s Exhibit
2) proper, there is in the making of the financial report three other
sheets, that I usually make out. Now one of those little sheets, that are
usually made-and I want to call your attention to the fact that I didn’t
typewrite this; I just filled these figures in; I am no typewriter; I cannot
operate a machine; I have two or three dozen of those every now and
then typewritten together, and keep them in blank in my desk; I didn’t
typewrite those on that day, or any other day; I just filled those figures
in those blanks-this is the sheet (Defendant’s Exhibit 11), called the
comparison sheet between 1912 and 1913, which is nothing more nor less

than taking the vital figures, the vital statistics of one week of 1913, and
comparing them with the same week of 1912, to see how we have im-
proved or gone backward every week one year apart. Of course the put-
ting of these down involves going back into the proper week in this
folder, and getting that out. However, I noticed the week in 1912 corre-
sponding with the week of April 24th in 1913, was a week of 45 hours in-
stead of 50 hours.

In addition to that, I made out two condensed financial reports, (De-
fendant’s Exhibits 43 and 46), that is, give the main figures. I didn’t
typewrite this sheet, either; as I say, I cannot operate a machine. I just
filled in the figures, which have to be picked out from this large financial
report, fill them in for the week ending-that does not show the date it
was made, but it shows for the week ending April 24th, the production
in dollars, the total expenditure in dollars, the result, which in this week,
as I wrote in “deficit”I in dollars; shows the shipments, which in this
week were very good, and the orders received, which were gotten from
that great big sheet. These were enough figures for a director or stock-
holder of the company to receive, and are practically the only figures he
is interested in. He don’t care to hear how much we make of this pencil
or that pencil. The only thing he is interested in is dividends, if we are
able to give them to him. One of these sheets I always make out and mail
to Mr. Oscar Pappenheimer (Defendant’s Exhibit 46), who was formerly
a member of the Board of Directors, though he is not now. The other
sheet (Defendant’s Exhibit 43), I always invariably send to my uncle,
Mr. M. Frank, no matter where he is, who is president of the company.
On this particular Saturday, my uncle had during the week ending April
26th, gone to New York, stopping at Hotel McAlpin, preparatory to tak-
ing his annual trip abroad for his health, he being a sick, feeble old man.
When I made out that financial, I really made out two small ones, and I
put one (Defendant’s Exhibit 46), in an envelope, addressed it to Mr.
Oscar Pappenheimer, care Southern Furniture Company, Atlanta, Geor-
gia; the other one (Defendant’s Exhibit 43) was put in this envelope,
which you see right here, and sent to my uncle, Mr. M. Frank, together
with a letter, (Defendant’s Exhibit 42), which I wrote him, after having
finished the financial sheet, the sheet showing the comparison of vital
statistics for the same weeks of 1912 and 1913, and after having com-
pleted these two small condensed financial reports. I wrote that letter
(Defendant’s Exhibit 42) to my uncle, and I sent him that report (De-
fendant’s Exhibit 43), and also sent a price list, to which I referred in
that letter; hence the size of the envelope, (Defendant’s Exhibit 44). I
am going to show you one of those price lists. Its a great big sheet when
it is folded up, it is much too large for the ordinary size; hence the rea-
son I used a great big envelope like that. I addressed that letter to my
uncle, Mr. M. Frank, care Hotel McAlpin, Greely Square, New York,
N. Y., as has been identified.
This ends practically the work on the financial. After finishing the
financial, I wrote these letters, and sealed them, and placed them aside to
post. After finishing the financial, I folded this big report up (Defend-
ant’s Exhibit 2), and put it with the comparison sheet (Defendant’s Ex-
hibit 11) for the week of 1912 and the same week of 1913 in a large envel-
ope, addressed it to Mr. Sig Montag, General Manager of the Pencil Com-
pany, and put it under my inkwell, intending to take it over on the morn-
ing of Monday following.

I then came to the checking up of the cash on hand and the balancing
of the cash book. For some reason or other there are no similar entries
in this book after those of that date. That’s my handwriting (Defend-
ant’s Exhibit 40), and I did that work on Saturday afternoon, April 26th,
as near as might be between the hours of 5:30 and 5 minutes to 6:00.
Now in checking up it didn’t take me an hour and a half. I did that in
about 25 minutes. In checking up the cash the first thing to do is to open
the cash box. We have a little coin bag in there, and there was in cash
actually on hand that day about $30.54; that’s all there was. That’s all
there could have been, and that $30.54 was to the best of my recollection
composed of about three dollars in one dollar bills, about four or five dol-
lars in quarters and halves, and the balance dimes, nickels, and one-cent
pieces. That’s some job to count that, not only to count it, but to sepa-
rate the different denominations, and stack it up into stacks of a dollar.
I did that, stacked them up, checked them, and re-checked them, and I
took a piece of paper-haven’t that paper-and jotted down the amounts.
To that had to be added the amount that was loaned. In this case there
was only one loan, that which I loaned to Mr. White that afternoon. That
would eventually come back to the cash box. If there had been any errors
in the pay roll the night previous, I would have had to make it good from
the cash box, and it would have gone under the item of” extra pay roll.”
I don’t know whether that occurred this week or not. However, I added
up the total cash I actually had on hand then-$28.54-and that $2.00
loaned to Mr. White brought it up to $30.54, the actual amount which the
cash book phowed. Now on the left-hand side of this book, the debits for
the week between April 21st, which was Monday, previous to April 26th,
it being a record simply of the petty cash used by us, showed that we had
a balance on hand the Monday morning previous of $39.85. On April
22nd we drew a check for $15.00, and on April 24th we drew another one
for $15.00. I mean by that that we would draw a check for $15,00, and go
over to Mr. Sig Montag to sign it; so that during that week all we got
from the treasury was $30.00, and $39.85 already on hand, made $69.85,
which was the total amount we had to account for. When we spend, of
course we credit it. There once was a time, when, as we paid out money,
we would write it down on this book. We found it was much better, how-
ever, to keep a little voucher book (Defendant’s Exhibit 10) and let each
and every person sign for money they got, and we have not only this
record (Defendant’s Exhibit 40) but this record on the receipt book (De-
fendant’s Exhibit 10). The first entry on this is 15 cents there-on the

19th of April the National Pencil Company gave 15 cents to Newt Lee
for kerosene (Defendant’s Exhibit 10). Newt Lee’s name is there, but
he didn’t write it. I wrote it; my initials are on it. He was there when
he got the money, but I thought he couldn’t write, and I signed his name.
Whenever I sign anybody’s name, my initials are under it. The next
item is 75 cents for typewriter rent (Defendant’s Exhibit 10) ; next item
$2.00 drayage 24th of April. That is Truman McCrary’s receipt-he
has a very legible handwriting, and one of the little stamps stamped on
there. The next item is for cases; some negro signed his name down
there. So on throughout the book (Defendant’s Exhibit 10), cases, ex-
press, drayage, postage, parcels post, etc. Now, after counting the
money, finding how much actual cash there was in the cash box, the next
thing I do is to take this little voucher book, and lumped the different
items that were all alike together. This sheet (Defendant’s Exhibit 41)
has been identified and explained, and you notice that there were four
items of drayage grouped together, the total being $6.70. I just extend
that over to the right there $6.70. Then I don’t have to put drayage
down in this book (Defendant’s Exhibit 40) four times; just make one
entry of drayage for the four times we paid drayage together, which
gives the same total, and makes the book a great deal neater. So on
throughout, five items of cases, two items of postage, two items of par-
cels post, one item of two weeks’ rent on an extra typewriter, 45 cents
for supplies for Mr. Schneegas’ department, foreman on the third floor,
85 cents for the payment of a very small bill to King Hardware Com-
pany, $11.50 to a tinsmith for a small job he had done, 5 cents for thread,
and ten cents for carfare one item. Then this young man, Harold
Wright, of whom I spoke, omitted from the pay roll. I added this up,
and that was $39.31, and transferred it from here (Defendant’s Exhibit
41) to there (Defendant’s Exhibit 40). I then made the balance in the
usual way, checking it against the money on hand, that I had in the cash
box that night, and after checking and re-checking it, and finding no
money missing from any source that we could trace, found that it was
$4.34 short of the cash box, which was due to shortage in pay roll in the
past three months.

4:35 P. M.

I finished this work that I have just outlined at about five minutes to
six, and I proceeded to take out the clock strips from the clock which
were used that day and replace them. I won’t show you these slips, but
the slips that I put in that night were stamped with a blue ink, with a
rubber dating stamp, “April 28th (Defendant’s Exhibit 1), at the bot-
tom, opposite the word “date.” Now, in reference to these time slips
and the reason that the date April 28th was put on these slips, which was
put in the clocks that night-Saturday night-no one was coming down
to the factory on Sunday, as far as I knew, or as far as custom was, to
put the slips into the clocks, and, therefore, we had to put the slips into

the clock dated with the date on which the help were coming into the
factory to go about their regular duties and register on the Monday
following, which, in this case was April 28th. Now on one of these slips,
Newt Lee would register his punches Saturday night, and on Sunday
night he would register his punches on the other. His punches on Mon-
day night would be registered on two new slips that would be put into
clock on Monday night. As I was putting these time slips into the clock,
as mentioned, I saw Newt Lee coming up the stairs, and looking at the
clocks, it was as near as may be six o’clock-looking straight at the clock;
I finished putting the slip in and went back to wash up, and as I was
washing, I heard Newt Lee ring the bell on the clock when he registered
his first punch for the night, and he went down stairs to the front door to
await my departure. After washing, I went down stairs-I put on my
hat and coat-got my hat and top coat and went down stairs to the front
door. As I opened the front door, I saw outside on the street, on the
street side of the door, Newt Lee in conversation with Mr. J. M. Gantt,
a man that I had let go from the office two weeks previous. They seemed
to be in discussion, and Newt Lee told me that Mr. Gantt wanted to go
back up into the factory, and he had refused him admission, because his
instructions were for no one to go back into the factory after he went
out, unless he got contrary instructions from Mr. Darley or myself. I
spoke to Mr. Gantt, and asked him what he wanted, he said he had a
couple of pairs of shoes, black pair and tan pair, in the shipping room.
I told Newt Lee it would be alright to pass Gantt in, and Gantt went in,
Newt Lee closed the door, locking it after him-I heard the bolt turn in
the door. I then walked up Forsyth Street to Alabama, down Alabama
to Broad Street, where I posted the two letters, one to my uncle, Mr. M.
Frank and one to Mr. Pappenheimer, a few minutes after six, and con-
tinued on my way down to Jacobs’ Whitehall and Alabama Street store,
where I went in and got a drink at the soda fount, and bought my wife a
box of candy. I then caught the Georgia Avenue car and arrived home
about 6:25. I sat looking at the paper until about 6:30 when I called up
at the factory to find out if Mr. Gantt had left. I called up at 6:30 be-
cause I expected Newt Lee would be punching the clock on the half hour
and would be near enough to the telephone to hear it and answer it at
that time. I couldn’t get Newt Lee then, so I sat in the hall reading un-
til seven o’clock, when I again called the factory, this time I was success-
ful in getting Newt Lee and asked him if Mr. Gantt had gone again, he
says, “Yes,” I asked if everything else was alright at the factory; it was,
and then I hung up. I sat down and had supper, and after supper, I
phoned over to my brother-in-law, Mr. Ursenbach, to find out if he would
be at home that evening, I desired to call on him, but he said he had an-
other engagement, so I decided to stay home, and I did stay home read-
ing either a newspaper or the Metropolitan magazine that night. About
eight o’clock I saw Minola pass out on her way home. That evening, my
parents in law, Mr. and Mrs. Emil Selig, had company, and among those
present were Mr. and Mrs. Morris Goldstein, Mr. and Mrs. M. Marcus,

Mrs. A. E. Marcus and Mrs. Ike Strauss; Mr. Ike Strauss came in much
later, something after ten o’clock, I believe. I sat reading in the hall
until about a quarter to ten, when I lighted the gas water heater prepar-
atory to taking a bath, and then continued reading in the hall; at 10:30
I turned out the gas, went into the dining room, bade them all good night,
and went upstairs to take my bath, a few minutes later my wife followed
me upstairs.
(Here the jury took a recess).
I believe I was taking a bath when you went out-on Saturday
night; and after finishing my bath, I laid out my linen to be used next
day, my wife changed the buttons from my old shirt to the shirt I was to
wear the following morning, and I retired about eleven o’clock. The
next day, Sunday, April 27th, I was awakened at something before seven
o’clock, by the telephone ringing. I got out of bed-was tight asleep, it
awakened me-but I got out of bed, put on a bath robe and went down to
answer the telephone, and a man’ s voice spoke to me over the phone and
said-I afterwards found out this man that spoke to me was City Detec-
tive Starnes-said “Is this Mr. Frank, superintendent of the National
Pencil Company ?” I says “Yes, sir,” he says, “I want you to come
down to the factory right away,” I says, “What’s the trouble, has there
been a fire?” He says, “No, a tragedy, I want you to come down right
away; ” I says, “All right,” he says,” I’ll send an automobile for you,”
I says, “All right,” and hung up and went upstairs to dress. I was in
the midst of dressing to go with the people who should come for me in the
automobile, when the automobile drove up, the bell rang and my wife
went down stairs to answer the door. She had on-just had a night dress
with a robe over it. I followed my wife-I wasn’t completely dressed at
that time-didn’t have my trousers or shirt on, and as soon as I could
get together-get my trousers and shirt on-I went down stairs-fol-
lowed my wife in a minute or two. I asked them what the trouble was,
and the man who I afterwards found out was detective Black, hung his
head and didn’t say anything. Now, at this point, these two wit-
nesses, Mr. Rogers and Mr. Black differ with me on the place where the
conversation occurred-I say, to the best of my recollection, it occurred
right there in the house in front of my wife; they say it occurred just as
I left the house in the automobile; but be that as it may, this is the con-
versation: They asked me did I know Mary Phagan, and I told them I
didn’t, they then said to me, didn’t a little girl with long hair hanging
down her back come up to your office yesterday sometime for her money
-a little girl who works in the tipping plant?” I says, “Yes, I do re-
member such a girl coming up to my office, that worked in the tipping
room, but I didn’t know her name was Mary Phagan.” “Well, we want
you to come down right away with us to the factory;” and I finished
dressing, and as they had said they would bring me right away back, I
didn’t have breakfast, but went right on with them in the automobile,
made the trip to the undertaking establishment very quickly-I mean,

they made the trip down town very quickly, and stopped at the corner of
Mitchell and Pryor Streets, told me they were going to take me to the
undertaker ‘s first, that they wanted me to see the body and see if I could
identify the little girl. I went with them to the undertaking establish-
ment, andone of the two men asked the attendant to show us the way into
where the body was, and the attendant went down a long, dark passage-
way with Mr. Rogers following, then I came, and Black brought up the
rear; we walked down this long passageway until we got to a place that
was apparently the door to a small room-very dark in there, the attend-
ant went in and suddenly switched on the electric light, and I saw the
body of the little girl. Mr. Rogers walked in the room and stood to my
right, inside of the room, I stood right in the door, leaning up against the
right facing of the door, and Mr. Black was to the left, leaning on the
left facing, but a little to my rear, and the attendant, whose name I have
since learned was Mr. Gheesling, was on the opposite side of the little
cooling table to where I stood-in other words, the table was between
him and me; he removed the sheet which was covering the body, and took
the head in his hands, turned it over, put his finger exactly where the
wound in the left side of the head was located-put his finger right on it;
I noticed the hands and arms of the little girl were very dirty-blue and
ground with dirt and cinders, the nostrils and mouth-the mouth being
open-nostrils and mouth just full of saw-dust and swollen, and there
was a deep scratch over the left eye on the forehead; about the neck there
was twine-a piece of cord similar to that which is used at the pencil fac-
tory and also a piece of white rag. After looking at the body, I identified
that little girl as the one that had been up shortly after noon the day pre-
vious and got her money from me. We then left the undertaking estab-
lishment, got in the automobile and rode over to the pencil factory. Just
as we arrived opposite the pencil factory, I saw Mr. Darley going into
the front door of the pencil factory with another man, whose name I
didn’t know; we went up to the second floor, the office floor, I went into the
inner office, hung up my hat, and in the inner office I saw the night watch-
man, Newt Lee, in the custody of an officer, who I think was detective
Starnes-the man who had phoned me. I then unlocked the safe and
took out the pay roll book and found that it was true that a little girl by
the name of Mary Phagan did work in the metal plant, and that she was
due to draw $1.20, the pay roll book showed that, and as the detective had
told me that someone had identified the body of that little girl as that of
Mary Phagan, there could be no question but what it was one and the
same girl. The detectives told me then they wanted to take me down in
the basement and show me exactly where the girl’s body was found, and
the other paraphernalia that they found strewed about; and I went to
the elevator box-the switch box, so that I could turn on the current, and
found it open. In reference to that switch box being open or shut-it
was open on that occasion, however-I had given instructions to the fac-
tory to keep it open, and those instructions were given because a member
of the fire department had gone through all that part of the city, and the

National Pencil Company, among others, and told us that no switch box,
no box in which an electric switch was situated, could be locked up, but
had to be open, so it could be easily accessible in case of fire, so they
wouldn’t run any risk of electrocuting anybody, or if they wanted to
move quickly, they could throw it on and start the elevator-you couldn’t
lock it up, the firemen wouldn’t know where the key was. However, I
turned on the switch, started the motor, which runs the elevator, going,
then Mr. Darley and a half dozen more of us and the detectives got on
the elevator; I got on the elevator and I started to pull the rope to start
the elevator to going, and it seemed to be caught, and I couldn’t move it,
I couldn’t move it with a straight pull, and couldn’t get it loose, so I
jumped out, we all got off, and I asked Mr. Darley to try his hand-he’s
a great deal larger man and a great deal stronger man than I was-so he
was successful in getting it loose-it seemed like the chain which runs
down in the basement had slipped a cog and gotten out of gear and needed
somebody to force it back; however, Mr. Darley was successful in get-
ting it loose, and it started up, and I got on and the detectives got on and
I caught hold of the rope and it worked alright.

In the basement, the officers showed us just about where the body
was found, just beyond the partition of the Clark Woodenware Company,
and in behind the door to the dust bin, they showed us where they found
the hat and slipper on the trash pile, and they showed us where the back
door, where the door to the rear was opened about 18 inches. After look-
ing about the basement, we all went back upstairs and Mr. Darley and
myself got some cords and some nails and a hammer and went down the
basement again to lock up the back door, so that we could seal the factory
from the back and nobody would enter. After returning upstairs, Mr.
Darley and myself accompanied Chief Lanford on a tour of inspection
through the three upper floors of the factory, to the second floor, to the
third floor and to the fourth floor, we looked into each bin, and each par-
tition, and each dressing room and each work room, and even passed
through the metal room and looked into that very dressing room that
has figured so prominently in this trial, and neither Mr. Darley nor my-
self noticed anything peculiar on that floor, nor did Sergeant Lanford,
Chief of the Atlanta detectives, notice anything peculiar. We then re-
turned to the front, and took out of the clock the slip on which Newt Lee
had punched the evening previous, and that clock slip, of course was
dated April 28th (Defendant’s Exhibit 1).

I removed the clock slip from the clock, and in the center of the
sheet, between the top and bottom, I remember the No. 133 and the num-
ber 134, 1 wrote on it “Taken out 8:26 A. M.” (Defendant’s Exhibit 1),
and two lines under it, with a casual look at that slip, you can’t see it.

I can see it. When looking casually at that slip (Defendant’s Ex-
hibit 1), you see nothing, and by the way, this sheet has been identified, it

is the one to which reference has been made so many times, and if you
will look at it, you will see the date, April 28th, which we put on there on
the evening of Saturday, April 26th, but if you will look opposite those
numbers 133 and 134 (Defendant’s Exhibit 1), and look very carefully,
you can see where there has been erased from it what I put on there that
morning in pencil to identify it, the words “taken out 8-26,” and two
lines, which it seems has been erased, but they couldn’t erase it carefully
enough, they even erased some of the printed line which runs across that
sheet. This is the sheet that I took out on Sunday morning, and looked
at the clock to notice what time it was, and I laid it up against the dial of
the clock, the glass face of the clock, and wrote down there the time which
the clock then registered. I told them the sheet was just like you see it
there, and I brought it to the office and Chief Lanford put it in his pocket;
I then went into the office and got another time slip and dated it April
28th, similar to this one which was taken out, and which one it would re-
place, and I put it back into the time clock to be used by the night watch-
man that night and by the help when they came to work on Monday morn-
ing. After taking this slip out, Mr. Darley and myself casually looked
over the slip to see if there were any errors, and we noticed over there
that no successive numbers had been skipped, that is, the numbers on
that slip are arranged successively, one, two and three, and the time
alongside of each one, and there was no single line skipped, but we didn’t
notice the actual time shown by the punch, we only noticed that the suc-
cessive punches were made at the time which the punches themselves
showed. After putting a new slip in the clock, we all went out of the fac-
tory and went downstairs and locked the door, and I was going to go
down to the office, to police headquarters, because the officers said they
wanted to show me some notes which they said were found near the body
and the padlock and staple which they showed me had been withdrawn,
and which they said had been taken down to the station the first time
they had Newt Lee down there.

Now, gentlemen, I have heard a great deal, and so have you, in this
trial, about nervousness, about how nervous I was that morning. Gen-
tlemen, I was nervous, I was very nervous, I was completely unstrung,
I will admit it; imagine, awakened out of my sound sleep, and a morning
run down in the cool of the morning in an automobile driven at top speed,
without any food or breakfast, rushing into a dark passageway, coming
into a darkened room, and then suddenly an electric light flashed on, and
to see the sight that was presented by that poor little child; why, it was
a sight that was enough to drive a man to distraction; that was a sight
that would have made a stone melt; and then it is suspicious, because a
man who is ordinary flesh and blood should show signs of nervousness.
Just imagine that little girl, in the first blush of young womanhood, had
had her life so cruelly snuffed out, might a man not be nervous who
looked at such a sight? Of course I was nervous; any man would be ner-
vous if he was a man. We went with the officers in the automobile, Mr.

Rogers was at the driving wheel, and Mr. Darley sat next to him, I sat on
Mr. Darley’s lap, and in the back was Newt Lee and two officers. We
rode to headquarters very quickly and on arrival there Mr. Darley and
I went up to Chief Lanford’s office where I sat and talked and answered
every one of their questions freely and frankly, and discussed the mat-
ter in general with them, trying to aid and to help them in any way that
I could. It seemed that, that morning the notes were not readily acces-
sible, or for some other reason I didn’t get to see them, so I told them on
leaving there that I would come back that afternoon, which I ultimately
did; after staying there a few minutes, Mr. Darley and myself left, and
inasmuch as Mr. Darley hadn’t seen the body of the little girl, we went
over to Bloomfield’s on Pryor Street and Mitchell, and when we went in-
to the establishment, they told us somebody was busy with the body at
that time and we couldn’t see it, and we started to leave, when we met a
certain party with whom we made arrangements to watch the building,
because Newt Lee was in custody at that time. Mr. Darley and I then
went over to Montag Brothers to see if any of the Montags had come
down town that morning, we arrived at their place, and found the same
was locked, and that nobody was down there. We walked from Montag’s
place on Nelson Street down to Mitchell and Forsyth Streets, where I
bade Mr. Darley good-bye, and I walked down Mitchell Street to Pryor,
where I caught a Georgia Avenue car and rode to the house of Mr. Sig
Montag, our General Manager, corner of Glenn and Pryor Streets, and
called on Mr. Montag and discussed with him at length and in detail what
I had seen that morning and what the detectives had to say. After my
conversation with him, I returned to my home at about a quarter to
eleven, my home was 68 E. Georgia Avenue; I washed up and had my
breakfast in company with my wife, in the dining room, and while I was
eating breakfast, I told my wife of the experience I had had that morn-
ing. After I finished my breakfast, I left the house and went around to
the home of Mr. Wolfsheimer, and at Mrs. Wolfsheimer’s house we
found quite a company of people, and the conversation turned largely
on what I had seen that morning; also, among those who were present,
were Mrs. L. G. Cohen, Mrs. M. G. Michael, Mrs. Carl Wolfsheimer,
Julian Michael, Philip Michael, Miss Helen Michael, Miss Virginia Sil-
verman, Miss May Lou Liebman, Julian Loeb and Herman Loeb. After
staying there about an hour with my wife, I went in her company to visit
the home of my brother-in-law, A. E. Marcus, whose home is situated on
Washington Street opposite the Orphans’ Home; on our arrival there,
the nurse Lucy told us that no one was at home, and we could find them
probably at the home of Mrs. Ursenbach; we then went over to the Ur-
senbach house, which is situated on the corner of Washington and Pul-
liam Streets, and visited at that place, and saw Mr. and Mrs. A. E. Mar-
cus, Mr. and Mrs. Chas. Ursenbach, Harold Marcus, Mr. and Mrs. Ben
Wiseberg. Of course, the conversation was about the little girl that had
been killed in the pencil factory basement that morning, of which fhey
had heard, and we discussed it generally, although it was at that time as

much a puzzle to me as it was apparently to everybody else. After stay-
ing here until about one o’clock or a little after, I returned with my wife
to my home at 68 E. Georgia Avenue, where we took our lunch together
with my parents-in-law, with Minola McKnight serving. After dinner,
read a little while, and finally caught the ten minutes of three Georgia
Avenue car going down town. I got off at the corner of Pryor and
Mitchell Streets, and went into the undertaker Bloomfield ‘s, where I saw
a large crowd of people nearby on the outside; on entering I found quite
a number of people who were working at the pencil factory, among whom
were Mr. Schiff, Herbert Schiff, N. V. Darley, Wade Campbell, Alonzo
Mann, Mr. Stelker, and Mr. Zyganke. I chatted with them a few min-
utes, and I noticed that the people who were going in to see the body were
standing in line and moving in, and that others from the factory were
going in and I thought I would go in too and pay my respects, and I went
and stood in line, and went into the room again and staid a few minutes
in the mortuary chamber; the little girl had been cleaned up, her hair
had all been cleaned and smoothed out, and there was a nice white sheet
over the rest of her body. I returned to the front of the undertaking es-
tablishment, and stood chatting with Herbert Schiff and Mr. Darley un-
til the party with whom we had made arrangements came up, and we gave
them the keys with instructions as to watching the plant that night. Then
Mr. Darley and Mr. Schiff and myself went down to police headquarters
and went up into Chief Lanford’s office, and the three of us stood talking
there, answering all sorts of questions that not only chief Lanford, but
the other detectives would shoot at us, and finally Mr. Darley said he
would like to talk to Newt Lee; then he went into another room, and I
presume they brought Newt Lee up from the cell, so he could talk to him.
After Newt Lee was gone, the detectives showed us the two notes and the
pad back with still a few unused leaves to it, and the pencil that they
claimed they had found down in the basement near the body. Of course,
Mr. Schiff and myself looked at those notes and tried to decipher them,
but they were written exceedingly dim, and were very rambling and in-
coherent, and neither of us could recognize the handwriting, nor get any
sense out of them at all. One of these notes (State’s Exhibit Y) was
written on a sheet of pencil pad paper, the same kind as that of this sheet
which still remained on the pad back; the other (State’s Exhibit Z) was
written on a sheet of yellow paper, apparently a yellow sheet from the
regulation order pad or order book of the National Pencil Company; this
sheet was a yellow sheet with black ruling on it, and certain black print-
ing at the top. These are the two notes (State’s Exhibit Y and Z) (indi-
cating papers). At the top of these notes where it showed the series and
date, and you can see it has either been worn out or rubbed out (Defend-
ant’s Exhibit Z), but the date was originally on there, and down below
here is the serial number; now, both of those notes were written as
though they had been written through a piece of carbon paper and the
date said Jan. 8, 1911; the order number is so faint or erased here that I
can It even see what that is, but there is no trace of a date on this one at

all, but it was there distinctly visible when Mr. Schiff and myself looked
at it. We continued answering any questions that the detectives wished
to put to us looking to a possible solution of the mystery, when Mr. Dar-
ley came in and said if they didn’t want him any further, he would go off,
that he had an appointment. A few minutes thereafter, Mr. Schiff and
myself left police headquarters, and went down Decatur Street to Peach-
tree Street, and down Peachtree Street over the viaduct to Jacobs’ Ala-
bama and Whitehall Street store, and went in, and each of us had a drink,
and I bought a cigar for each of us at the cigar counter. Mr. Schiff had
an appointment to meet some friends of his at the Union Depot that af-
ternoon, and it was a little too early, so we took a walk around by the
pencil factory, walking up Alabama to Forsyth Street and down Forsyth
Street on the side opposite from the factory, to the corner of Hunter and
Forsyth, where we noticed the morbid crowd that had collected out in
front of the factory; we stood there about a minute or two and then con-
tinued walking, and then went up East Hunter Street back to Whitehall
Street, and back Whitehall to the corner of Whitehall and Alabama,
where Mr. Schiff waited until I caught an Alabama Street or Georgia
Avenue car and returned to my home. I returned to my home about a
quarter to four, and found there was no one in, as my wife had told me
that if she wasn’t at home, she would probably be at the residence of Mr.
Ursenbach, I proceeded over there, coming up Washington Street in the
direction of the Orphans’ Home, and on Washington Street, between
Georgia Avenue and the next street down, which I believe is Bass Street,
I met Arthur Haas and Ed Montag and Marcus Loeb, who stopped me
and asked about things they had heard about the little girl being dead in
the pencil factory, and I stopped and discussed it with them, and I was
about to leave them when Henry Bauer came along in his automobile and
stopped where I was and he asked me what I knew about it, and I had to
stop and talk with him; and I finally got loose from him and went over to
the home of Mr. Ursenbach on the corner of Pulliam and Washington
Terrace, and when I arrived there, I found Mr. and Mrs. A. D. Marcus,
Mr. and Mrs. Charlie Ursenbach, and my wife, and a little later Mr. and
Mrs. Sig Selig came in. Here again the subject of conversation was
what I had seen that morning and what the detectives had told me, and
what I had told them and how the little girl looked, and all about it, as
far as I knew. I stayed there until about 5 o’clock, when Mr. Ike Haas,
the Vice-President of the pencil factory, telephoned me to come over to
his house, and I thereupon went over there, and on arriving at Mr. Haas’
home, which is situated on Washington Street right across the way from
the Orphans’ Home, I talked to him about what I had seen that morning,
and what I could deduce from the facts that were known and what the
detectives had told me. I stayed there until about 6 o’clock. On arrival
at Mr. Haas’ I saw there his wife, Mrs. Haas, his son, Edgar Haas, and
a cousin of my wife’s, Montefiore Selig. My wife had left word with
Mrs. Haas that I should call for her at the residence of Mr. Marcus,
which is next door, or just a few doors away, and I went by and called

for my wife at six o’clock and a few minutes before seven my wife and I
left the residence of Mr. Marcus and started down Washington Street
towards Georgia Avenue on our way home. On our way home, we met
our brother-in-law, Mr. and Mrs. Ursenbach, going to the house from
which we had just left. We reached home about seven or a little after
for supper. After supper, I started to read the paper; between 8 and
8:30, I phoned up to my brother-in-law, Alex Marcus, and asked him if
he would come down, but he said he thought he would not that evening,
on account of the rain. I continued reading there in the hall that night
or evening. There was company at the house of my father and mother-
in-law, among the company being the following people, to the best of my
recollection, Mr. and Mrs. Paul Lippman, Mr. and Mrs. Ike Strauss and
Mr. and Mrs. Carl Wolfsheimer. About ten o’clock, all the company
left, and I went upstairs with my wife and retired about ten o’clock.
The next morning, I arose about seven o’clock, and washed and
shaved and dressed, and while I was so occupied, the door bell rang, and
my wife again answered the door, and there were two detectives down
there, one was John Black, and the other, I believe, Mr. Haslett, Haslett
of the city detectives; I finished dressing and went downstairs, and they
told me they wanted me to step down to headquarters with them, and I
told them I would, but I stopped and got my breakfast, finished dressing
and got my breakfast before I went with them. We walked from my
home on Georgia Avenue down to Washington Street down to police
headquarters, walking the whole way. On the way down, I asked detec-
tive Haslett what the trouble down at the station house was, and he said:
“Well, Newt Lee has been saying something, and Chief Lanford wanted
to ask you a few questions about it;” and I said: “What did Newt Lee
say;” “Well, Chief Lanford will tell you when you get down there.”
Well, I didn’t say anything more to him, went right along with him, and
when I got down to police headquarters, I sat in one of the outer offices
that the detectives use, it wasn’t the office of Chief Lanford, he hadn’t
come down yet, that was about between 8 and 8:30 when I got down there.
Well, I waited around the office possibly an hour, chatting and talking to
the officers that came in and spoke to me, but I still didn’t see anything
of Chief Lanford; and bye and bye, probably after an hour, half past
nine perhaps, Sig Montag and Herbert Haas, a couple of my friends,
came up and spoke to me; I was conversing with them, and possibly at
10 o’clock I saw Mr. Luther Rosser come up, and he said: “Hello boys,
what’s the trouble?” And Mr. Haas went up to him and spoke to him,
and they were talking together and a few minutes later Chief Lanford,
who had in the mean time arrived and who seemed to be very busy run-
ning in and out answering telephone calls, came in and says: “Come
here,” and beckoned to me; and I went with him and went into his room,
in his office, and while I was in there, to the best of my recollection, any-
how it is my impression now, that this very time slip (Defendant’s Ex.
1), on which at that time that “taken out at 8:26,” with the two lines un-
der it, had not been erased, was shown to me, and in looking over it and

studying it carefully, I found where the interval of an hour had occurred
three times during the time that Newt Lee had been punching on that
Saturday night, April 26th. When I had first looked at it, I only noticed
that every line had a punch mark on it, but I didn’t notice what time the
punch marks themselves were on; this time I studied the slip carefully,
it was the same slip I had taken out of the clock, Chief Lanford or one of
the officers handed it to me at police headquarters, which I absolutely
identified with the writing which was on it, which you can readily see if
you look now, even though it has been erased. There seemed to be some
altercation about Mr. Rosser coming in that room, and I heard Mr. Ros-
ser say: “I am going into that room, that man is my client;” that was
the first intimation I had that Mr. Rosser was going to look after my in-
terests in this matter. Chief Beavers stated that he wanted me to give
him a statement, and he said: “Mr. Frank, will you give us a state-
ment’?” And I said: “Certainly, I will give them a statement,” I con-
sidered it only right that anybody that was at that factory that day
should give the police a statement, telling who he had seen, where he had
gone and what he had done; and I gave them a statement freely and un-
reservedly, while I had no idea that I had to make a statement at that
time, I did give it to the very best of my ability, freely, and answered
every question that was put to me. Mr. February was sitting on the op-
posite side of the table from where I was sitting, Chief Lanford
was sitting at a desk, and Mr. Rosser was sitting quite a distance
away, probably twenty-five feet, sitting in the front window with his
back to us. After I had given the statement, several of the officers
came into the room, among them being Chief Beavers, and Chief Beav-
ers and Chief Lanford and Mr. Rosser were apparently having a sort of
conversation, and I overheard Mr. Rosser say: “Why, it is -preposter-
ous, a man who would have done such a deed must be full of scratches
and marks and his clothing must be bloody.” I imagine Mr. Rosser must
have had an inkling that they were suspicious of me, and as soon as I
heard that, I turned and jumped up and showed them my underclothing
and my top shirt and my body, I bared it to them all that came within the
range of their vision, I had everything open to them, and all they had to
do was to look and see it. After that, Mr. Rosser insisted that two of the
detectives, Mr. Black and another detective, accompany Mr. Haas, Mr.
Herbert Haas, and myself to my home and look over my soiled clothing
for the past week, which I anticipated had not been given to the wash-
woman. They complied with this request; Mr. Black and another detec-
tive and Mr. Haas and myself went over to the corner of Hunter and
Washington Streets, and caught the Washington Street car and rode to
Georgia Avenue and went to my home, and on this car my mother-in-law
was sitting, returning to her home from town. On reaching 68 E. Geor-
gia Avenue, I found there my wife’s grandmother, Mrs. Cohen, and my
father-in-law, Mr. Selig. The detectives immediately went upstairs to
my room with Mr. Haas and myself, and I took the laundry bag in which
my soiled laundry is always kept and emptied it out on the bed, and they

examined each and every article of clothing that I had discarded that
past week, and I again opened the clothing which I was then wearing,
and which was the brown suit which I have here, this brown suit (Defend-
ant’s Exhibit 49) is the same suit I wore that Saturday, April 26th, and
Monday April 28th, and I have worn that suit continuously since then
until the weather became so hot, and it has neither been pressed nor
cleaned since then, and I show it to you for your examination. The de-
tectives were evidently perfectly well satisfied with what they had seen
there, and of course they left without any further remarks with Mr.
Haas. I went downstairs and conversed with my folks down there until
dinner time, which was served to my father-in-law and my mother-in-
law and my wife and myself b-y Minola McKnight. About that time, Mr.
and Mrs. Wolfsheimer came in and conversed with us, Mr. Wolfsheimer
telling me that he would take me down town that afternoon in his auto-
mobile. After dinner, I telephoned down to the office and telephoned to
Mr. Schiff, and told him to get Mr. Montag’s permission for the Pencil
Company to put on a detective, preferably a Pinkerton detective, to
work with and assist the city detectives in ferreting out the crime, as an
evidence of the interest in this matter which the National Pencil Com-
pany was taking, I thought it was no more than we ought to do, and I
also told Mr. Schiff I would be down town between half past two and
three. After conversing with my folks, I went around the corner to Mr.
Wolfsheimer’s house and got in his automobile, and he took me down
town to his place of business, which is situated on Whitehall Street near
Mitchell, and I got out of the automobile there and walked over to the
Forsyth Street plant of the pencil factory, and on going into the office, I
saw the following men there: Mr. Herbert Schiff, Mr. Wade Campbell,
Mr. Darley-Mr. Holloway wa� out in his place in the hall, and Mr. Stel-
ker and Mr. Quinn and Mr. Ziganke, these foremen were sitting around
there because we had shut down there, as they told me, due to the fact
that the plant was wholly demoralized, the girls were running into hys-
terics, they couldn’t stick at their work, they were crying and going on
over what had happened there. I spoke to the boys who were there in
the office about the happenings of that morning, of course, at more or
less length. Then Mr. Quinn said he would like to take me back to the
metal department on the office floor where the newspapers had said that
Mr. Barret of the metal department had claimed he had found blood
spots, and where he had found some hair. Mr. Quinn took me to the lit-
tle lathe back in the metal department, and explained to me that Mr. Bar-
rett had told him just the same as he said here, that those strands of hair
were so few in number that he didn’t see them until he turned the handle
and they wound around his fingers, and moreover that the position of the
handle of the tool which that handle actuates on that tool, that small
lathe, was in the same relative position to the work in the lathe as when
they left it on Friday evening previous to that Monday. They then took
me over to the place in front of the dressing room where it was claimed
the blood spots were found. Now, I examined those spots, I didn’t ex-

amine them standing up, I didn’t depend on the light from the windows,
but I stooped right down to those spots, and I took a strong electric flash
lamp that we had around there and looked at them and examined them
carefully, and I made a certain conclusion after that examination. Now,
gentlemen, if there is anyone thing in and about a factory, after my
seven years of practical experience in factories, that I do know, it is the
care and condition of factory floors. Now, take that metal plant, for in-
stance, that plant, as you know, is a place where we reform and shape
and spin sheet brass, and of course, of necessity, we use a great deal of
lubricant there; now, the lubricant that is used on this eyelet machine,
these large machines that change the sheet metal from a ribbon into a
shape, we use that form of lubricant which is known as haskoline com-
pound; now, the main ingredients of that compound are, for practical
purposes, soap and oil, and in use, it is diluted to a great extent with
water so it can flow easily onto the tools or onto the metal, so that the
tools that they use it on won’t get brittle or smeared up, and that has-
koline compound is carried to these little machines in the metal room,
right almost up to that dressing room, and that haskoline remains on
them and sticks to them, and you are apt to find that haskoline com-
pound on the floor there anywhere around in that metal room near any
of those machines, and when it is spilled on the floor, it is not scoured
up, but it is just swept up with a broom. Moreover, a point that has not
been brought out, so far as I know, right opposite that dressing room is
kept the scrap brass, the scrap barrels in which the scrap metal from the
eyelet machines is put, and that is full of haskoline compound, that metal
being put into the barrel of course, with the fluid on it, it flows to the bot-
tom and is apt to get out of the bottom of that barrel onto the floor. But,
getting back to the floor of the metal room, there is a constant spilling of
lubricants, and, as I say, it is composed largely of soap and oil, and that
floor, by actual experiment, is covered to a thickness varying from a
quarter to a half inch, that is, you can scrape away that much before
you get down to the original color of the wood; moreover, on top of that
grease soaked floor, there is dirt more or less, and then somebody comes
along with a water sprinkler and sprinkles it to sweep it up, and they go
over the top of that, it don’t sink into the floor, and the result is there is
coat after coat of grease and dirt on that floor. Now, with reference to
those spots that are claimed to be blood that Mr. Barrett found, I don’t
claim they are not blood, they may have been, they are right close to the
ladies’ dressing room, and we have had accidents there, and by the way,
in reference to those accidents, the accidents of which we have had rec-
ords, are not the only accidents that have happened there; for instance,
a person cuts a finger; that is an accident, we give first aid to the injured
in the office, and we don’t have any report on that, the only reports we
have are of those accidents that incapacitates the health, where they de-
mand the money for the time that they have lost due to the accident, and
we will have our Employers’ Liability Insurance Company to pay the
employees, but where people just cut their fingers and they go back to

work, we don’t make any record of that, and we have people cutting their
fingers there very often, and when they cut their fingers, their line of
travel is right by that place where Mr. Barrett found those spots, right
to the office. Now, we use paint and varnish around there, a great deal
of it, and while I don’t say that this is not blood, it may be, but it could
also have been paint, I have seen the girls drop bottles of paint or var-
nish and have them break there on the floor, I have seen that happen
right close to that spot, but the main point about it is this, gentlemen:
when I got down and looked at it, you could have scratched away from
the top of those dark stains an accumulation of dirt that was not the ac-
cumulation of a day or two days or three days or three weeks, but it was
at least three months, from off the top of those spots, without touching
the spot itself. Moreover, that white stuff was unquestionably, in my
opinion, haskoline compound, and it was dry and it had to be put on, be-
cause it showed all evidences of having been swept, so it had to be put on
the wood in a liquid state; if that had been fresh red paint, or if that had
been fresh red blood, and that haskoline compound, that soap in it, which
is a great solvent, should have been put on there in a liquid state, it
would not have showed up white, as it showed up then, but it would have
showed up either pink or red, and where the spot of blood was, or what-
ever it was, that stuff was white, and not pink or red.

I returned after making this examination from which I noticed two
or three or four chips had been knocked up, the boys told me, by the
police that morning; I returned to my office and gathered up what
papers I had to take over to Montag Brothers, and I took over the finan-
cial report which I had made out the Saturday afternoon previous, and
I talked it over with Mr. Sig Montag. I had a good long conversation
with Mr. Montag with reference to the occurrences that morning and we
decided that since the papers had stated that I was being detained at
headquarters, it would be best to let my uncle, who was ill, and who is an
elderly man, being over 70 years of age, and who was on the point of
taking a trip to Europe, and I didn’t want him to be unnecessarily
alarmed by seeing in the papers that I was detained, and I wrote a tele-
gram to Mr. Adolph Montag informing him that I was no longer in cus-
tody, that I was all right, and that he could communicate that to may un-
cle. That was so that my uncle should not get hold of an Atlanta paper
and see that I was in custody and be unnecessarily alarmed.

I returned from Montag Brothers to the pencil factory, being ac-
companied by one of the traveling men, Mr. Hein, Mr. Sol Hein, and on
my arrival at the factory I went up into the office and distributed the
various papers all over the factory to be acted on the next day. In a few
minutes Mr. Harry Scott of the Pinkerton detectives came in and I took
him aside into my office, my private office, and spoke to him in the pres-
ence of Mr. N. V. Darley and Mr. Herbert Schiff. I told him that I ex-
pected that he had seen what had happened at the pencil factory by

reading the newspapers and knew all the details. He said he didn’t read
the newspapers and didn’t know the details, so I sat down and gave him
all the details that I could, and in addition I told him something which
Mr. Darley had that afternoon communicated to me, viz.: that Mrs.
White had told him that on going into the factory at about 12 o’clock
noon on Saturday, April 26th, she had seen some negro down by the ele-
vator shaft. Mr. Darley had told me this and I just told this to Mr. Scott.
After I told Mr. Scott all that I could, I took him around the building,
took him first back to the metal room and showed him the place where
the hair had been found, looked at the machinery and at the lathe, looked
at the table on which the lathe stands, and the lathe bed and the floor un-
derneath the lathe, and there wasn’t a spot, much less a blood spot un-
derneath. I showed him the other spot in front of the dressing room,
and I took him to the fourth floor and showed him where I had seen
White and Denham a little before one the first time and about three the
second time. Then I took him down into the basement and made a thor-
ough search of the basement, and that included an examination of the
elevator well which was at bottom of elevator shaft, and I noticed Mr.
Scott was foraging around down there and he picked up two or three or
may be four articles and put them in his pocket, and one of them I spe-
cially noticed was a piece of cord exactly like that which had been found
around the little girl’s neck. We then went back and I showed him where
the officer said the slipper had been found, the hat had been found and
the little girl’s body was located. I showed him, in fact, everything that
the officers had showed us. Then I opened the back door and we made a
thorough search of the alleyway and went up and down the alleyway and
then went down that alleyway to Hunter Street and down Hunter to
Forsyth and up Forsyth in front of the pencil factory. In front of the
pencil factory I had quite a little talk with Mr. Scott as to the rate of the
Pinkerton Detective Agency. He told me what they were and I had Mr.
Schiff to telephone to Mr. Montag to find out if those rates were satis-
factory. He phoned back the answer that he would engage them for a
few days at any rate. Mr. Scott then said: “Well, I don’t need any-
thing more,” and he says “The Pinkertons in this case, according to
their usual custom in ferreting out the perpetrator of this crime will
work hand in hand with the city officers.” I said: “All right, that suits
me.” And he went on his way. About that time my father-in-law
joined the group over in front of the factory and after talking for some
time my father-in-law and I left and we arrived home about 6:30 I
should judge, and found there my mother-in-law and my wife and Min-
ola McKnight, and we had supper. After supper my two brothers-in-
law and their wives came over to visit with us and they stayed until
about 10 o’clock, after which my wife and I retired. On Tuesday morn-
ing I arose sometime between seven and seven-thirty, leisurely dressed
and took my breakfast and caught the 8:10 car coming towards town,
the Georgia Avenue car, and when I went to get on that car I met a
young man by the name of Dickler and I remember paying the fare for

both of us. When I arrived at the pencil factory about 8:30, I imme-
diately entered upon my routine work sending the various orders to the
various places in the factory where they were due to go, and about 9:30
I went on my usual trip over to Montag Brothers to see the General Man-
ager. After staying over there a short while I returned in company with
another one of their traveling men, Mr. Jordan. At the corner of For-
syth and Hunter Street I met up with a cousin of my wife’s, a Mr. Selig,
and we had a drink at Cruickshank’s soda fount at the corner of Hunter
and Forsyth. Then I went up into the factory and separated the papers
I had brought back with me from Montag Brothers, putting them in the
proper places, and sending the proper papers to the different places. I
was working along in the regular routine of my work, in the factory and
about the office, and a little later detectives Scott and Black came up to
the factory and said: “Mr. Frank, we want you to go down to headquar-
ters with us,” and I went with them. We went down to headquar-
ters and I have been incarcerated ever since. We went down to head-
quarters in an automobile and they took me up to Chief Lanford’s office.
I sat up there and answered any questions that he desired, and I had
been sitting there some time when detective Scott and detective Black
came back with a bundle under their arm. They showed me a little piece
of material of some shirt, and asked me if I had a shirt of that material.
I looked at it and told them I didn’t think I ever had a shirt of that de-
scription. In the meantime they brought in Newt Lee, the night watch-
man brought him up from a cell and showed him the same sample. He
looked at it and immediately recognized it; he said he had a shirt like that,
but didn’t remember having worn it for 2 years, if I remember correctly,
that is what he said. Detectives Scott and Black then opened the pack-
age they had and disclosed the full shirt (State’s Exhibit F) of that ma-
terial that had all the appearance of being freshly stained with blood,
and had a very distinct odor. Newt Lee was taken back to the cell.
After a time Chief Langford came over to me and began an examination
of my face and of my head and my hands and my arms. I suppose he was
trying to hunt to see if he could find any scratches. I stayed in there un-
til about 12 o’clock when Mr. Rosser came in and spoke to the detectives,
or to Chief Beavers. After talking with Chief Beavers he came over to
me and said that Chief Beavers thought it better that I should stay
down there. He says: “He thinks it better that you be detained at head-
quarters, but if you desire, you don’t need to be locked up in a cell, you
can engage a supernumerary policeman who will guard you and give you
the freedom of the building.” I immediately acquiesced, supposing that
I couldn’t do anything else, and Mr. Rosser left. Now, after this time,
it was almost about this time they took me from upstairs down to the
District Sergeant’s desk and detective Starnes-John N. Starnes, I
think his name is, came in and dictated from the original notes that were
found near the body, dictated to me to get a sample of my handwriting.
Have you got those photographs there? (Photographs handed to the
defendant). I wrote this note (State’s Exhibit K) at the dictation of

Mr. Starnes, which was given to me word by word, and of course I wrote
it slowly. When a word was spelled differently they usually stopped-
take this word “buy” for instance, the detective told me how that was
spelled so they could see my exact letters, and compare with the original
note. Now I had no hesitation in giving him a specimen of my handwrit-
ing. Now, this photograph (State’s Exhibit K), is a reproduction of the
note. You see, J. N. Starnes in the corner here, that is detective Starnes,
and then is dated here, I put that there myself so I would be able to rec-
ognize it again, in case they tried any erasures or anything like that. It
is a photographic reproduction of something that was written in pen-
cil, as near as one can judge, a photographic reproduction of the note
that I wrote. Detective Starnes then took me down to the desk sergeant
where they searched me and entered my name on the book under a charge
of suspicion. Then they took me back into a small room and I sat there
for awhile while my father-in-law was arranging for a supernumerary
police to guard me for the night. They took me then to a room on the
top of the building and I sat in the room there and either read maga-
zines or newspapers and talked to my friends who came to see me until
-I was about to retire at midnight. I had the cover of my cot turned
back and I was going to bed when detective Scott and detective Black, at
midnight, Tuesday, April 29th, come in and said: ” I Mr. Frank, we would
like to talk to you a little bit. Come in and talk to us.” I says: “Sure,
I will be only too glad to.” I went with them to a little room on the top
floor of the headquarters. In that room was detective Scott and detec-
time Black and myself. They stressed the possibility of couples having
been let into the factory at night by the night watchman, Newt Lee. I
told them that I didn’t know anything about it, that if I had, I certainly
would have put a stop to it long ago. They said: “Mr. Frank, you have
never talked alone with Newt Lee. You are his boss and he respects you.
See what you can do with him. We can’t get anything more out of him,
see if you can.” I says: ” All right, I understand what you mean; I will
do my best,” because I was only too willing to help. Black says: “Now
put it strong to him, put it strong to him, and tell him to cough up and
tell all he knows. Tell him that you are here and that he is here and that
he better open up and tell all he knows about happenings at the pencil
factory that Saturday night, or you will both go to hell.” Those were
the detective’s exact words. I told Mr. Black I caught his meaning, and
in a few minutes afterwards detective Starnes brought up Newt Lee
from the cell room. They put Newt Lee into a room and hand-cuffed
him to a chair. I spoke to him at some length in there, but I couldn’t get
anything additional out of him. He said he knew nothing about couples
coming in there at night, and remembering the instructions Mr. Black
had given me I said: “Now, Newt, you are here and I am here, and you
had better open up and tell all you know, and tell the truth and tell the
full truth, because you will get us both into lots of trouble if you don’t
tell all you know,” and he answered me like an old negro: “Before God,
Mr. Frank, I am telling you the truth and I have told you all I know.”

And the conversation ended right there. Within a minute or two after-
wards the detectives came back into the room, that is, detective Scott
and detective Black, and then began questioning Newt Lee, and then it
was that I had my first initiation into the third degree of the Atlanta
police department. The way that fellow Black cursed at that poor old
negro, Newt Lee, was something awful. He shrieked at him, he hol-
lered at him, he cursed him, and did everything but beat him. Then
they took Newt Lee down to a cell and I went to my cot in the outer room.

Now before closing my statement, I wish to touch upon a couple of
insinuations and accusations other than the one on the bill of indictment,
that have been leveled against me so far during the trial. The first is
this, the fact that I would not talk to the detectives; that I would not see
Jim Conley. Well, let’s look into the facts a few minutes and see whether
there was any reason for that, or if there be any truth in that statement.

On Sunday morning, I was taken down to the undertaker’s estab-
lishment, to the factory, and I went to headquarters; I went to head-
quarters the second time, going there willingly without anybody coming
for me. On each occasion I answered them frankly and unreservedly,
giving them the benefit of the best of my knowledge, answering all and
any of their questions, and discussing the matter generally with them.
On Monday they came for me again. I went down and answered any and
all of their questions and gave them a statement which they took down
in writing, because I thought it was right and I was only too glad to do
it. I answered them and told them all that I know, answering all ques-
tions. Tuesday I was down at police station again, and answered every
question and discussed the matter freely and openly with them, not only
with the police, but with the reporters who were around there; talked to
anybody who wanted to talk with me about it, and I have even talked
with them at midnight when I was just about to go to bed. Midnight
was the time they chose to talk to me, but even at such an outlandish hour
I was still willing to help them, and at their instigation I spoke to Newt
Lee alone, but what was the result ? They commenced and they grilled
that poor negro and put words into his mouth that I never said, and
twisted not alone the English, but distorted my meaning. I just decided
then and there that if that was the line of conduct they were going to pur-
sue I would wash my hands of them. I didn’t want to have anything to
do with them. On the afternoon of May 1st, I was taken to the Fulton
County Tower. On May 3rd detectives Black and Scott came up to my
cell in the tower and wanted to speak to me alone without any of my
friends around. I said all right, I wanted to hear what they had to say
that time. Then Black tore off something like this: “Mr. Frank, we are
suspicious of that man Darley. We are watching him; we have been
shadowing him. Now open up and tell us what you know about him.” I
said: “Gentlemen, you have come to the wrong man, because Mr. Dar-
ley is the soul of honor and is as true as steel. He would not do a crime

like that, he couldn’t do it.” And Black chirped up: “Come on, Scott,
nothing doing,” and off they go. That showed me how much reliance
could be placed in either the city detectives or our own Pinkerton detec-
tives, and I treated such conduct with silence and it was for this reason,
gentlemen, that I didn’t see Conley, surrounded with a bevy of city detec-
tives and Mr. Scott, because I knew that there would not be an action so
trifling, that there was not an action so natural but that they would dis-
tort and twist it to be used against me, and that there was not a word
that I could utter that they would not deform and twist and distort to be
used against me, but I told them through my friend Mr. Klein, that if
they got the permission of Mr. Rosser to come, I would speak to them,
would speak to Conley and face him or anything they wanted-if they
got that permission or brought Mr. Rosser. Mr. Rosser was on that day
up at Tallulah Falls trying a case. Now, that is the reason, gentlemen,
that I have kept my silence, not because I didn It want to, but because I
didn’t want to have things twisted.

Then that other implication, the one of knowing that Conley could
write, and I didn’t tell the authorities.

Let’s look into that. On May 1st I was taken to the tower. On the
same date, as I understand it, the negro Conley was arrested. I didn’t
know anybody had any suspicions about him. His name was not in the
papers. He was an unknown quantity. The police were not looking out
for him; they were looking out for me. They didn’t want him, and I had
no inkling that he ever said he couldn’t write. I was sitting in that cell
in the Fulton County jail-it was along about April 12th, April 12th or
14th-that Mr. Leo Gottheimer, a salesman for the National Pencil Com-
pany, came running over, and says “Leo, the Pinkerton detectives have
suspicions of Conley. He keeps saying he can’t write; these fellows over
at the factory know well enough that he can write, can’t he?” I said:
“Sure he can write. ” “We can prove it. The nigger says he can’t write
and we feel that he can write.”‘ I said: “I know he can write. I have re-
ceived many notes from him asking me to loan him money. I have re-
ceived too many notes from him not to know that he cannot write. In
other words, I have received notes signed with his name, purporting to
have been written by him, though I have never seen him to this date use
a pencil.” I thought awhile and then I says:” Now, I tell you; if you will
look into a drawer in the safe you will find the card of a jeweler from
whom Conley bought a watch on the installment. Now, perhaps if you
go to that jeweler you may find some sort of a receipt that Conley had to
give and be able to prove that Conley can write.” Well, Gottheimer took
that information back to the Pinkertons; they did just as I said; they got
the contract with Conley’s name on it, got back evidently to Scott and
then he told the negro to write. Gentlemen, the man who found out or
paved the way to find out that Jim Conley could write is sitting right
here in this chair. That is the truth about it.

Then that other insinuation, an insinuation that is dastardly that it
is beyond the appreciation of a human being, that is, that my wife didn’t
visit me; now the truth of the matter is this, that on April 29th, the date
I was taken in custody at police headquarters, my wife was there to see
me, she was downstairs on the first floor; I was up on the top floor. She
was there almost in hysterics, having been brought there by her two
brothers-in-law, and her father. Rabbi Marx was with me at the time. I
consulted with him as to the advisability of allowing my dear wife to
come up to the top floor to see me in those surroundings with city detec-
tives, reporters and snapshotters; I thought I would save her that humil-
iation and that harsh sight, because I expected any day to be turned loose
and be returned once more to her side at home. Gentlemen, we did all
we could do to restrain her in the first days when I was down at the jail
from coming on alone down to the jail, but she was perfectly willing to
even be locked up with me and share my incarceration.

Gentlemen, I know nothing whatever of the death of little Mary
Phagan. I had no part in causing her death nor do I know how she came
to her death after she took her money and left my office. I never even
saw Conley in the factory or anywhere else on that date, April 26, 1913.

The statement of the witness Dalton is utterly false as far as com-
ing to my office and being introduced to me by the woman Daisy Hopkins
is concerned. If Dalton was ever in the factory building with any woman,
I didn’t know it. I never saw Dalton in my life to know him until this
crime.

In reply to the statement of Miss Irene Jackson, she is wholly mis-
taken in supposing that I ever went to a ladies’ dressing room for the
purpose of making improper gaze into the girls’ room. I have no recol-
lection of occasions of which she speaks but I do not know that that
ladies’ dressing room on the fourth floor is a mere room in which the girls
change their outer clothing. There was no bath or toilet in that room,
and it had windows opening onto the street. There was no lock on the
door, and I know I never went into that room at any hour when the girls
were dressing. These girls were supposed to be at their work at 7 o’clock.
Occasionally I have had reports that the girls were flirting from this
dressing room through the windows with men. It is also true that some-
times the girls would loiter in this room when they ought to have been
doing their work. It is possible that on some occasions I looked into this
room to see if the girls were doing their duty and were not using this
room as a place for loitering and for flirting. These girls were not sup-
posed to be dressing in that room after 7 o’clock and I know that I never
looked into that room at any hour when I had any reason to suppose that
there were girls dressing therein.

The statement of the negro Conley is a tissue of lies from first to
last. I know nothing whatever of the cause of the death of Mary Pha-
gan and Conley’s statement as to his coming up and helping me dispose
of the body, or that I had anything to do with her or to do with him that
day is a monstrous lie.

The story as to women coming into the factory with me for immoral
purposes is a base lie and the few occasions that he claims to have seen
me in indecent positions with women is a lie so vile that I have no
language with which to fitly denounce it.

I have no rich relatives in Brooklyn, N. Y. My father is an invalid.
My father and mother together are people of very limited means, who
have barely enough upon which to live. My father is not able to work.
I have no relative who has any means at all, except Mr. M. Frank who
lives in Atlanta, Ga. Nobody has raised a fund to pay the fees of my
attorneys. These fees have been paid by the sacrifice in part of the small
property which my parents possess.

Gentlemen, some newspaper men have called me “the silent man in
the tower,” and I kept my silence and my counsel advisedly, until the
proper time and place. The time is now; the place is here; and I have
told you the truth, the whole truth.

Leo M. Frank would add more testimony later…

MISS EMILY MAYFIELD, sworn for the Defendant.
I worked at the pencil factory last year during the summer of 1912.
I have never been in the dressing room when Mr. Frank would come in
and look at anybody that was undressing.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I work at Jacobs’ Pharmacy. My sister used to work at the pencil
factory. I don’t remember any occasion when Mr. Frank came in the
dressing room door while Miss Irene Jackson and her sister were there.

MISSES ANNIE OSBORNE, REBECCA CARSON, MAUDE
WRIGHT, and MRS. ELLA THOMAS, all sworn for the Defendant,
testified that they were employees of the National Pencil Company; that
Mr. Frank’s general character was good; that Conley’s general charac-
ter for truth and veracity was bad and that they would not believe him
on oath.

MISSES MOLLIE BLAIR, ETHEL STEWART, CORA COWAN,
B. D. SMITH, LIZZIE WORD, BESSIE WHITE, GRACE ATHER-
TON, and MRS. BARNES, all sworn for the Defendant, testified that
they were employees of the National Pencil Company, and work on the
fourth floor of the factory; that the general character of Leo. M. Frank
was good; that they have never gone with him at any time or place for

any immoral purpose, and that they have never heard of his doing any-
thing wrong.

MISSES CORINTHIA HALL, ANNIE HOWELL, LILLIE M.
GOODMAN, VELMA HAYES, JENNIE MAYFIELD, IDA HOLMES,
WILLIE HATCHETT, MARY HATCHETT, MINNIE SMITH, MAR-
JORIE McCORD, LENA McMURTY, MRS. W. R. JOHNSON, MRS.
S. A. WILSON, MRS. GEORGIA DENHAM, MRS. 0. JONES, MISS
ZILLA SPIVEY, CHARLES LEE, N. V. DARLEY, F. ZIGANKI, and
A. C. HOLLOWAY, MINNIE FOSTER, all sworn for the Defendant,
testified that they were employees of the National Pencil Company and
knew Leo M. Frank, and that his general character was good.

D. I. MacINTYRE, B. WILDAUER, MRS. DAN KLEIN, ALEX
DITTLER, DR. J. E. SOMMERFIELD, F. G. SCHIFF, AL. GUTH-
MAN, JOSEPH GERSHON, P. D. McCARLEY, MRS. M. W. MEYER,
MRS. DAVID MARX, MRS. A. I. HARRIS, M. S. RICE, L. H. MOSS,
MRS. L H. MOSS, MRS. JOSEPH BROWN, E. E. FITZPATRICK,
EMIL DITTLER, WM. BAUER, MISS HELEN LOEB, AL. FOX,
MRS. MARTIN MAY, JULIAN V. BOEHM, MRS. MOLLIE ROSEN-
BERG, M. H. SILVERMAN, MRS. L. STERNE, CHAS. ADLER,
MRS. R. A. SONN, MISS RAY KLEIN, A. J. JONES, L. EINSTEIN,
J. BERNARD, J. FOX, MARCUS LOEB, FRED HEILBRON, MIL-
TON KLEIN, NATHAN COPLAN, MRS. J. E. SOMMERFIELD, all
sworn for the Defendant, testified that they were residents of the city of
Atlanta, and have known Leo M. Frank ever since he has lived in At-
lanta; that his general character is good.
MRS. M. W. CARSON, MARY PIRK, MRS. DORA SMALL, MISS
JULIA FUSS, R. P. BUTLER, JOE STELKER, all sworn for the De-
fendant, testified that they were employees of the National Pencil Com-
pany; that they knew Leo M. Frank and that his general character is
good.

EVIDENCE IN REBUTTAL FOR STATE.

J. R. FLOYD, R. M. GODDARD, A. L. GODDARD, N. J. BAL-
LARD, HENRY CARR, J. S. RICE, LEM SMITH, all sworn for the
State, testified that they knew Daisy Hopkins; that her general charac-
ter for truth and veracity was bad and that they would not believe her
on oath. J. R. Floyd testified that he heard Daisy Hopkins talk about
Frank and said there was a cot in the basement.

J. T. HEARN, sworn for the State.
I have known C. B. Dalton from 1890 to 1904. At first his general
character was bad, but the last I knowed of him, it was good. I would
believe him on oath.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I heard of his being indicted for stealing and selling liquor, but the
last year he was in Walton County he joined the church and I never
heard a word against him after that.
R. V. JOHNSON, sworn for the State.
I have known C. B. Dalton for about 20 years. His character for
truth and veracity is good, and I would believe him on oath.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I didn’t hear he was indicted for liquor selling before he left my
county. He was in good standing when he left the church. I knew he
was in the chaingang for stealing about 18 or 20 years ago.
W. M. COOK, W. J. ELDER, A. B. HOUSTON, J. T. BORN, W. M.
WRIGHT, C. B. McGinnis, F. P. HEFNER, W. C. HALE, LEON
BOYCE, M. G. CALDWELL, A. W. HUNT, W. C. PATRICK, all sworn
for the State, testified that they knew C. B. Dalton; that his general char-
acter for truth and veracity was good, and that they would believe him
on oath.
MISS MYRTIE CATO, MAGGIE GRIFFIN, MRS. C. D. DONE-
GAN, MRS. H. R. JOHNSON, MISS MARIE CARST, MISS NELLIE
PETTIS, MARY DAVIS, MRS. MARY E. WALLACE, ESTELLE
WINKLE, CARRIE SMITH, all sworn for the Defendant, testified that
they were formerly employed at the National Pencil Company and
worked at the factory for a period varying from three days to three and
a half years; that Leo M. Frank’s character for lasciviousness was bad.

MISS MAMIE KITCHENS, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
I have worked at the National Pencil Company two years. I am on
the fourth floor. I have not been called by the defense. Miss Jones and
Miss Howard have also not been called by the defense to testify. I was
in the dressing room with Miss Irene Jackson when she was undressed.
Mr. Frank opened the door, stuck his head inside. He did not knock. He
just stood there and laughed. Miss Jackson said, “Well, we are dress-
ing, blame it,” and then he shut the door.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Yes, he asked us if we didn’t have any work to do. It was during
business hours. We didn’t have any work to do. We were going to
leave. I have never met Mr. Frank anywhere, or any time for any im-
moral purposes.

MISS RUTH ROBINSON, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
I have seen Leo M. Frank talking to Mary Phagan. He was talking

to her about her work, not very often. He would just tell her, while
she was at work, about her work. He would stand just close enough to
her to tell her about her work. He would show her how to put rubbers in
the pencils. He would just take up the pencil and show her how to do it.
That’s all I saw him do. I heard him speak to her; he called her Mary.
That was last summer.

MISS DEWEY HEWELL, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
I stay in the Home of the Good Shepherd in Cincinnati. I worked at
the pencil factory four months. I quit in March, 1913. I have seen Mr.
Frank talk to Mary Phagan two or three times a day in the metal depart-
ment. I have seen him hold his hand on her shoulder. He called her
Mary. He would stand pretty close to her. He would lean over in her
face.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
All the rest of the girls were there when he talked to her. I don’t
know what he was talking to her about.
MISS REBECCA CARSON, re-called by the State in rebuttal.
I have never gone into the dressing room on the fourth floor with
Leo M. Frank.
MISS MYRTICE CATO, MISS MAGGIE GRIFFIN, both sworn
for the State, testified that they had seen Miss Rebecca Carson go into
the ladies’ dressing room on the fourth floor with Leo M. Frank two or
three times during working hours; that there were other ladies working
on the fourth floor at the time this happened.
J. E. DUFFY, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
I worked at the National Pencil Company. I was hurt there in the
metal department. I was cut on my forefingers on the left hand. That
is the cut right around there (indicating). It never cut off any of my fin-
gers. I went to the office to have it dressed. It was bleeding pretty
freely. A few drops of blood dropped on the floor at the machine where
I was hurt. The blood did not drop anywhere else except at that ma-
chine. None of it dropped near the ladies’ dressing room, or the water
cooler. I had a large piece of cotton wrapped around my finger. When
I was first cut I just slapped a piece of cotton waste on my hand.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I never saw any blood anywhere except at the machine. I went
from the office to the Atlanta Hospital to have my finger attended to.
W. E. TURNER, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
I worked at the National Pencil Company during March of this
year. I saw Leo Frank talking to Mary Phagan on the second floor,

about the middle of March. It was just before dinner. There was no-
body else in the room then. She was going to work and he stopped to
talk to her. She told him she had to go to work. He told her that he was
the superintendent of the factory, and that he wanted to talk to her, and
she said she had to go to work. She backed off and he went on towards
her talking to her. The last thing I heard him say was he wanted to talk
to her. That is all I saw or heard.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
That was just before dinner. The girls were up there getting ready
for dinner. Mary was going in the direction where she worked, and Mr.
Frank was going the other way. I don’t know whether any of the girls
were still at work or not. I didn’t look for them. Some of the girls came
in there while this was going on and told me where to put the pencils.
Lemmie Quinn’s office is right there. I don’t know whether the girls saw
him talking to Mary or not, they were in there. It was just before the
whistle blew at noon. Mr. Frank told her he wanted to speak to her and
she said she had to go to work, and the girls came in there while this con-
versation was going on. I can’t describe Mary Phagan. I don’t know
any of the other little girls in there. I don’t remember who called her
Mary Phagan, a young man on the fourth floor told me her name was
Mary Phagan. I don’t know who he was. I didn’t know anybody in the
factory. I can’t describe any of the girls. I don’t know a single one in
the factory.
W. P. MERK, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
I have been a motorman for about three years, in the employ of the
Georgia Railway & Electric ‘Company. I know Daisy Hopkins. I have
met her at the corner of Whitehall and Alabama Street between 2:30 and
3:30 on a Saturday. She said she was going to pencil factory. I made
an engagement with her to go to her room to see her that Saturday. I
was in a room with her at the corner of Walker and Peters Street about
8:30 o’clock. She told me she had been to the pencil factory that after-
noon. Her general character for truth and veracity is bad. I would not
believe her on oath.

GEORGE GORDON, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
I am a practicing lawyer. I was at police station part of the time
when Minola McKnight was making her statement. I was outside of the
door most of the time. I went down there with habeas corpus proceed-
ings to have her sign the affidavit and when I got there the detectives in-
formed me that she was in the room, and I sat down and waited outside
for her two hours, and people went in and out of the door, and after I had
waited there I saw the stenographer of the recorder’s court going into
the room and I decided I had better make a demand to go into the room,
which I did, and I was then allowed to go into the room and I found Mr.

February reading over to her some stenographic statement he had taken.
There were two other men from Beck & Gregg Hardware store and Pat
Campbell and Mr. Starnes and Albert McKnight. After that was read
Mr. February went out to write it off on the typewriter and while he was
out Mr. Starnes said, “Now this must be kept very quiet and nobody be
told anything about this.” I thought it was agreed that we would say
nothing about it. I was surprised when I saw it in the newspapers two
or three days afterwards. I said to Starnes: “There is no reason why
you should hold this woman, you should let her go.” He said he would
do nothing without consulting Mr. Dorsey and he suggested that I had
better go to Mr. Dorsey’s office. I went to his office and he called up Mr.
Starnes and then I went back to the police station and told Starnes to
call Mr. Dorsey and I presume that Mr. Dorsey told him to let her go.
Anyway he said she could go. You (Mr. Dorsey) said you would let her
go also. That morning you had said you would not unless I took out a
habeas corpus. In the morning after Chief Beavers told me he would
not let her go on bond and unless you (Mr. Dorsey) would let her go, I
went to your office and told you that she was being held illegally and you
admitted it to me and I said we would give bond in any sum that you
might ask. You said you would not let her go because you would get in
bad with the detectives, and you advised me to take out a habeas corpus,
which I did. The detectives said they couldn’t let her got without your
consent. You said you didn’t have anything to do with locking her up.
As to whether Minola McKnight did not sign this paper freely and vol-
untarily (State’s Exhibit J), it was signed in my absence while I was at
police station. When I came back this paper was lying on the table
signed. That paper is substantially the notes that Mr. February read
over to her. As they read it over to her, she said it was about that way.
Yes, you agreed with me that you had no right to lock her up. I don’t
know that you said you didn’t do it. I don’t remember that we discussed
that. You told me that you would not direct her to be let loose, because
you would get in bad with the detectives. I had told you that the detec-
tives told me they would not release her unless you said so. I took out
a habeas corpus immediately afterwards and went down there to get her
released, and she was released.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I heard that they had had her in Mr. Dorsey ‘s office and she went
away screaming and was locked up. I knew that Mr. Dorsey was letting
this be done. She was locked in a cell at the police station when I saw
her. They admitted that they did not have any warrant for her arrest.
Beavers said he would not let her out on bond unless Mr. Dorsey said so.
He said the charge against her was suspicion. They put her in a cell and
kept her until four o’clock the next day before they let her go. When I
went down to see her in the cell, she was crying and going on and almost
hysterical. When I asked Mr. Dorsey to let her go out on bond, he said

he wouldn’t do it because he would get in bad with the detectives, but
that if I would let her stay down there with Starnes and Campbell for a
day, he would let her loose without any bond, and I said I wouldn’t do it.
I said that I considered it a very reprehensible thing to lock up some-
body because they knew something, and he said, “Well, it is sometimes
necessary to get information,” and I said, “Certainly our liberty is more
necessary than any information, and I consider it a trampling on our
Anglo-Saxon liberties.” They did not tell me that they already had a
statement that she had made, and which she declared to be the truth.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
You (Mr. Dorsey) did not tell me that you had no right to lock any-
body up. I told you that, and you agreed to it, but you would not let her
go. I told you that Chief Beavers said he would do what you said and
then I asked you to give me an order. You said you wouldn’t give me an
order. When I told Starnes that I thought I ought to be in that room
while Minola was making the statement, he knocked on the door, and it
was unlocked on the inside and they let me in. They let me into the room
at once after I had been sitting there two hours. I was present when she
made the statement about the payment of the cook. I don’t remember
what questions I asked her at that time. I was her attorney. I didn’t go
down there to examine her; I went there to get her out. Starnes and
Campbell were in and out of the room during the time. Mr. Starnes
stayed on the outside of the door part of the time. I don’t know who
was in the room and who was not while I was outside.

ALBERT McKNIGHT, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
This sideboard (Defendant’s Exhibit 63) sets more this way than it
was at the time I was there.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I don’t know if the sideboard was changed, but it wasn’t setting like
that is in the corner. I didn’t see the sideboard at all, but I don’t like
the angle of this plat.

R. L. CRAVEN, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
I am connected with the Beck and Gregg Hardware Co. Albert
McKnight also works for the same company. He asked me to go down
and see if I could get Minola McKnight out when she was arrested. I
went there for that purpose. I was present when she signed that affida-
vit (State’s Exhibit J). I went out with Mr. Pickett to Minola
McKnight ‘s home the latter part of May. Albert McKnight was there.
On the 3rd day of June, we were down at the station house and they
brought Minola McKnight in and we questioned her first as to the state-
ments Albert had given me; at first she would not talk, she said she didn’t

know anything about it. I told her that Albert made the statement that
he was there Saturday when Mr. Frank came home, and he said Mr.
Frank came in the dining room and stayed about ten minutes and went
to the sideboard and caught a car in about ten minutes after he first ar-
rived there, and I went on and told her that Albert had said that Minola
had overheard Mrs. Frank tell Mrs. Selig that Mr. Frank didn’t rest
well and he came home drinking and made Mrs. Frank get out of bed and
sleep on a rug by the side of the bed and wanted her to give him his pis-
tol to shoot his head off and that he had murdered somebody, or some-
thing like that. Minola at first hesitated, but finally she told everything
that was in that affidavit. When she did that Mr. Starnes, Mr. Campbell,
Mr. February, Albert McKnight, Mr. Pickett, and Mr. Gordon were
there. When we were questioning her, I don’t remember whether any-
body but Mr. Pickett and myself and Albert McKnight were there.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
We went down there about 11:30 o’clock. I didn’t know that she
had been in jail twelve hours then. I suppose she was in jail because
they needed her as a witness. I was in Mr. Dorsey’s office only one time
about this matter, the same morning I started out to see if I could get her
and I went to see Mr. Dorsey about getting her out. Her husband wanted
her out of jail and I went to see Mr. Dorsey about getting her out. At
first she denied it. I questioned her for something like two hours. I
didn’t know she had already made a statement about the truth of the
transaction. Mr. Dorsey didn’t read it to me. He said she was hysteri-
cal and wouldn’t talk at all. I went down to get her to make some kind of
a statement; I wanted her to tell the truth in the matter. I wanted to
see whether her husband was telling the truth or whether she was telling
a falsehood. Yes, she finally made a statement that agreed with her hus-
band, and I left after awhile. As to why I didn’t stay and get her out,
because I didn’t want to. I went after we got her statement. No, I didn’t
get her out of jail. I did not look after her any further than that. I
don’t think Mr. Dorsey told me to question her. He wanted me to go out
to see her. He said Mr. Starnes and Mr. Campbell would be up there and
they would let us know about it, and we went up there and Mr. Starnes
and Mr. Campbell brought her in. They let us see her all right. I did
not ask Campbell or Starnes to turn her out. I didn’t ask anybody to
turn her out. I never made any suggestion to anybody about turning
her out. Nobody cursed, mistreated or threatened this woman while I
was there. I don’t know what took place before I got there.

E. H. PICKETT, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
I work at Beck & Gregg Hdw. Co. I was present when that paper
was signed (State’s Exhibit J) by Minola McKnight. Albert McKnight,
Starnes, Campbell, Mr. Craven, Mr. Gordon was present when she made
that statement. We questioned her about the statement Albert had made

and she denied it all at first. She said she had been cautioned not to talk
about this affair by Mrs. Frank or Mrs. Selig. She stated that Albert
had lied in what he told us. She finally began to weaken on one or two
points and admitted that she had been paid a little more money than was
ordinarily due her. There was a good many things in that statement
that she did not tell us, though, at first. She didn’t tell us all of that
when she went at it. She seemed hysterical at the beginning. We told
her that we weren’t there to get her into trouble, but came down there to
get her out, and then she agreed to talk to us but would not talk to the
detectives. The detectives then retired from the room. Albert told her
that she knew she told him those things. She denied it, but finally ac-
knowledged that she said a few of those things, and among the things I
remember is that she was cautioned not to repeat anything that she
heard. We asked her a thousand questions perhaps. I don’t know how
many. I called the detectives and told them we had gotten all the admis-
sions we could. We didn’t have any stenographer and Mr. Craven be-
gan writing it out, and Mr. Craven had written only a small portion when
the stenographer came. She did not make all of that statement in the
first talk she had with us. She didn’t say anything with reference to
Mrs. Frank having stated anything to her mother on Sunday morning.
The affidavit does not contain anything that she did not state there that
day. Before she made that affidavit, she said he did eat dinner that
day. She finally said he didn’t eat any. At first she said he remained at
home at dinner time about half an hour or more. She finally said he only
remained about ten minutes. At first she said Albert McKnight was not
there that day. She finally said he was there. She said she was in-
structed not to talk at first. At first she said her wages hadn’t been
changed, finally said her wages had been raised by the Seligs. As to
what, if anything, she said about a hat being given her by Mrs. Selig, the
only statement she made about the hat at all was when she made the affi-
davit. We didn’t know anything about the hat before. Nobody threat-
ened her when she was there. When the first questioning was going on
Campbell and Starnes were not in there. They came in when we called
them and told them we were ready. Her attorney, Mr. Gordon, came in
with the detectives.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

As to why we didn’t take her statement when she denied saying all
those things, because we didn’t believe them. We were down there about
three hours. We went down there to try and get Minola McKnight out,
if we could. We asked Mr. Dorsey to get her out. He said he would let
us stand her bond, and he referred us to the detectives to make arrange-
ments. As to why we didn’t get her out then, we wanted a statement
from her if we could get it. No, I didn’t know that whenever the detec-
tives got the story they wanted, they would let her out. As to my going
to get her out and then grilling her for three hours, I didn’t tell her I was

going to get her out; I went down there to get her out, but she left there
before I did. She went out of the room. The detectives treated her very
nice. They let her go after she made the statement. I knew they were
holding her because she did not make a statement confirming her hus-
band. It was not my object to make her statement agree with her hus-
band’s statement, but it was my duty as a good citizen to make her tell
the truth.

DR. S. C. BENEDICT, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
I am president of the State Board of Health. I was a member of
the Board when Dr. Westmoreland preferred charges against Dr. Har-
ris. Those minutes (State’s Exhibit N) are correct. I desire to say
that we do not wish to open up that question again. Dr. Westmoreland’s
charges are not recorded here. I don’t think they were put on the min-
utes. The reply to the charges were put in the minutes and the action of
the Board. The minutes would show what action the Board took.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
Dr. Harris’ reply is not entered on the minutes. The reply of the
Board to the charges is on the minutes.

J. H. HENDRICKS, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
I am a motorman for the Georgia Railway & Electric Company. On
April 26th I was running a street car on the Marietta line to the Stock
Yards on Decatur Street. I couldn’t say what time we got to town on
April 26th, about noon. I have no cause to remember that day. The
English Avenue car, with Matthews and Hollis has gotten to town prior
to April 26th, ahead of time. I couldn’t say how much ahead of time. I
have seen them come in two or three minutes ahead of time; that day
they came about 12:06. Hollis would usually leave Broad and Marietta
Streets on my car. I couldn’t swear positively what time I got to Broad
and Marietta Streets on April 26th. I couldn’t swear what time Hollis
and Matthews got there that day. I don’t know anything about that.
Often they get there ahead of time. Sometimes they are punished for it.

J. C. McEWING, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
I am a street car motorman. I ran on Marietta and Decatur Street
April 26th. My car was due in town at ten minutes after the hour on
April 26th. Hollis’ and Matthews ‘ car was due there 7 minutes after the
hour. Hendricks car was due there 5 minutes after the hour. The Eng-
lish Avenue frequently cut off the White City car due in town at 12:05.
The White City car is due there before the English Avenue. It is due 5
minutes after the hour and the Cooper Street is due 7 minutes after.
The English Avenue would have to be ahead of time to cut off the Cooper
Street car. That happens quite often. I have come in ahead of time

very often. I have known the English Avenue car to be 4 or 5 minutes
ahead of time.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I don’t know when that happened or who ran the car. I don’t know
whether they ran on schedule time on April 26th, or not. When one car
is cut off, one might be ahead of time, and one might be behind time. It’s
reasonable to suppose that the five minutes after car ought to come in
ahead of the one due seven minutes after. If it was behind it would be
cut off, just as easy as the other one would be cut off by being ahead.

M. E. McCOY, sworn for the State, in rebuttal.
I knew Mary Phagan. I saw her on April 26th, in front of Cool-
edge’s place at 12 Forsyth Street. She was going towards pencil com-
pany, south on Forsyth Street on right hand side. It was near twelve
o’clock. I left the corner of Walton and Forsyth Street exactly twelve
o’clock and came straight on down there. It took me three or four min-
utes to go there.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I know what time it was because I looked at my watch. First time I
told it was a week ago last Saturday, when I told an officer. I didn’t tell
it because I didn’t want to have anything to do with it. I didn’t consider
it as a matter of importance until I saw the statement of the motorman
of the car she came in on, and I knew that was wrong. She was dressed
in blue, a low, chunky girl. Her hair was not very dark. She had on a
blue hat.

GEORGE KENDLEY, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
I am with the Georgia Railway & Power Co. I saw Mary Phagan
about noon on April 26th. She was going to the pencil factory from
Marietta Street. When I saw her she stepped off of the viaduct.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I was on the front end of the Hapeville car when I saw her. It is
due in town at 12 o’clock. I don’t know if it was on time that day. I told
several people about seeing her the next day. If Mary Phagan left home
at 10 minutes to 12, she ought to have got to town about 10 minutes after
12, somewhere in that neighborhood. She could not have gotten in much
earlier. The time that I saw her is simply an estimate. That was the
time my car was due in town. I remember seeing her by reading of the
tragedy the next day. I didn’t testify at the Coroner’s inquest because
nobody came to ask me. No, I have not abused and villified Frank since
this tragedy. No, I have not made myself a nuisance on the cars by talk-

ing of him. I know Mr. Brent. I didn’t tell him that Mr. Frank’s child-
ren said he was guilty. Mr. Brent asked me what I thought about it sev-
eral times on the car. He has always been the aggressor. As to whether
I abused and villified him in the presence of Miss Haas and other passen-
gers, there has been so much talk that I don’t know what has been said.
I don’t think I said if he was released I would join a party to lynch him.
Somebody said if he got out there might be some trouble. I don’t remem-
ber saying that I would join a party to help lynch him if he got out. I
talked to Mr. Leach about it. I don’t remember what I told him. I told
him I saw her over there about 12 o’clock. That was the time the car was
due in town. I know I saw her before 12:05. My car was on schedule
time. I couldn’t swear it was exactly on the minute.

HENRY HOFFMAN, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
I am inspector of the street car company. Matthews is under me a
certain part of the day. On April 26th he was under me from 11:30 to
12:07. His car was due at Broad and Marietta at 12:07. There is no
such schedule as 12:07 and half. I have been on his car when lie cut off the Fair
Street car. Fair Street car is due at 12:05. I have compared watches
with him. They vary from 20 to 40 seconds. We are supposed to carry
the right time. I have called Matthews attention to running ahead of
schedule once or twice. They come in ahead of time on relief time for
supper and dinner.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I don’t know anything about his coming on April 26th. We found
out he was ahead of time way along last March. He was a minute and a
half ahead. I have caught him as much as three minutes ahead of time
last spring, on the trip due in town 12:07. I didn’t report him, I just
talked to him. I have known him to be ahead of time twice in five years
while he was under my supervision.

N. KELLY, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
I am a motorman of the Georgia Railway & Power Co. On April
26th, I was standing at the corner of Forsyth and Marietta Street about
three minutes after 12. I was going to catch the College Park car home
about 12:10. I saw the English Avenue car of Matthews and Mr. Hollis
arrive at Forsyth and Marietta about 12:03. I knew Mary Phagan. She
was not on that car. She might have gotten off there, but she didn’t
come around. I got on that car at Broad and Marietta and went around
Hunter Street. She was not on there.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I didn’t say anything about this because I didn’t want to get mixed
up in it. I told Mr. Starnes about it this morning. I have never said

anything about it before. That car was due in town at 12:07. The Fair
Street car was behind it.

W. B. OWENS, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
I rode on the White City line of the Georgia Railway & Electric Co.
It is due at 12:05. Two minutes ahead of the English Avenue car. We
got to town on April 26th, at 12:05. I don’t remember seeing the Eng-
lish Avenue car that day. I have known that car to come in a minute
ahead of us, sometimes two minutes ahead. That was after April 26th.
I don’t recall whether it occurred before April 26th.

LOUIS INGRAM, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
I am a conductor on the English Avenue line. I came to town on
that car on April 26th. I don’t know what time we came to town. I have
seen that car come in ahead of time several times, sometimes as much as
four minutes ahead. I know Matthews, the motorman. I have ridden
in with him when he was ahead of time several times.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
It is against the rules to come in ahead of time, and also to come in
behind time. They punish you for either one.

W. M. MATTHEWS, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
I have talked with this man Dobbs (W. C.) but I don’t know what I
talked about. I have never told him or anybody that I saw Mary Phagan
get off the car with George Epps at the corner of Marietta and Broad.
It has been two years since I have been tried for an offense in this court.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I was acquitted by the jury. I had to kill a man on my car who as-
saulted me.

W. C. DOBBS, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
Motorman Matthews told me two or three days after the murder
that Mary Phagan and George Epps got on his car together and left at
Marietta and Broad Streets.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
Sergeant Dobbs is my father.

W. W. ROGERS, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
On Sunday morning after the murder, I tried to go up the stairs
leading from the basement up to the next floor. The door was fastened

down. The staircase was very dusty, like it had been some little time
since it had been swept. There was a little mound of shavings right
where the chute came down on the basement floor. The bin was about a
foot and a half from the chute.

SERGEANT L. S. DOBBS, sworn for the State in rebuttal.

I saw Mr. Rogers on Sunday try to get in that back door leading up
from basement in rear of factory. There were cobwebs and dust there.
The door was closed.

0. TILLANDER, sworn for the State in rebuttal.

Mr. Graham and I went to the pencil factory on April 26th, about 20
minutes to 12. We went in from the street and looked around and I found
a negro coming from a dark alley way, and I asked him for the office and
he told me to go to the second floor and turn to the right. I saw Conley
this morning. I am not positive that he is the man. He looked to be
about the same size. When I went to the office the stenographer was in
the outer office. Mr. Frank was in the inner office sitting at his desk. I
went there to get my step-son’s money.

E. K. GRAHAM, sworn for the State in rebuttal.

I was at the pencil factory April 26th, with Mr. Tillander, about 20
minutes to 12. We met a negro on the ground floor. Mr. Tillander asked
him where the office was, and he told him to go up the steps. I don’t
know whether it was Jim Conley or not. He was about the same size,
but he was a little brighter than Conley. If he was drunk I couldn’t
notice it, I wouldn’t have noticed it anyway.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Mr. Frank and his stenographer were upstairs. He was at his desk.
I didn’t see any lady when I came out.

J. W. COLEMAN, sworn for the State in rebuttal.

I remember a conversation I had with detective McWorth. He ex-
hibited an envelope to me with a figure” 5″ on the right of it.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

This does not seem to be the envelope he showed me. (Defendant’s
Exhibit 47). The figure “5” was on it. I don’t see it now. I told him
at the time that Mary was due $1.20, and that “5” on the right would not
suit for that.

J. M. GANTT, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
I have seen Leo Frank make up the financial sheet. It would take
him an hour and a half after I gave him the data.

IVY JONES (c), sworn for the State in rebuttal.
I saw Jim Conley at the corner of Hunter and Forsyth Streets on
April 26th. He came in the saloon while I was there, between one and two
o’clock. He was not drunk when I saw him. The saloon is on the oppo-
site corner from the factory. We went on towards Conley’s home. I left
him at the corner of Hunter and Davis Street a little after two o’clock.

HARRY SCOTT, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
I picked up cord in the basement when I went through there with
Mr. Frank. Lee’s shirt had no color on it, excepting that of blood. I got
the information as to Conley’s being able to write from McWorth when
I returned to Atlanta. As to the conversation Black and I had, with Mr.
Frank about Darley, Mr. Frank said Darley was the soul of honor and
that we had the wrong man; that there was no use in inquiring about
Darley and he knew Darley could not be responsible for such an act. I
told him that we had good information to the effect that Darley had been
associating with other girls in the factory; that he was a married man
and had a family. Mr. Frank didn’t seem to know anything about that.
He said it was a peculiar thing for a man in Mr. Darley’s position to be
associating with factory employees, if he was doing it.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

We left after about two hours interview.

L. T. KENDRICK, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
I was night watchman at the pencil factory for something like two
years. I punched the clocks for a whole night’s work in two or three min-
utes. The clock at the factory needed setting about every 24 hours. It
varied from three to five minutes. That is the clock slip I punched
(State’s Exhibit P). I don’t think you could have heard the elevator on
the top floor if the machinery was running or any one was knocking on
any of the floors. The back stairway was very dusty and showed that
they had not been used lately after the murder. I have seen Jim Conley
at the factory Saturday afternoons when I went there to get my money.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I generally got to the factory about a quarter of two to two-thirty.
The clock was usually corrected every morning. The clock would run
slow sometimes and sometimes fast.

VERA EPPS, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
My brother George was in the house when Mr. Minar was asking us
about the last time we saw Mary Phagan. I don’t know if he heard the
questions asked. George didn’t tell him that he didn’t see Mary that
Saturday. I told him I had seen Mary Phagan Thursday.

C. J. MAYNARD, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
I have seen Burtus Dalton go in the factory with a woman in June
or July, 1912. She weighed about 125 pounds. It was between 1:30 and
2 o’clock in the afternoon on a Saturday.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I was ten feet from the woman. I didn’t notice her very particu-
larly. I did not speak to them.

W. T. HOLLIS, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
Mr. Reed rides out with me every morning. I don’t remember talk-
ing to J. D. Reed on Monday, April 29th, and telling him that George
Epps and Mary Phagan were on my car together. I didn’t tell that to
anybody. I say like I have always said, that if he was on the car I did
not see him.

J. D. REED, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
Mr. Hollis told me on Monday, April 28th, that Epps had gotten on
the car and taken his seat next to Mary, and that the two talked to each
other all the way as though they were little sweethearts.

J. N. STARNES, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
There were no spots around the scuttle hole where the ladder is im-
mediately after the murder. Campbell and I arrested Minola McKnight,
to get a statement from her. We turned her over to the patrol wagon
and we never saw her any more until the following day, when we called
Mr. Craven and Mr. Pickett to come down and interview her. We stayed
on the outside while she was on the inside with Craven and Pickett. They
called us back and I said to her, ” Minola, the truth is all we want, and if
this is not the truth, don’t you state it. And she started to put the state-
ment down. Mr. Gordon, her attorney, was on the outside, and I told
him we could go inside without his making any demand on me, and he
went in with me, and Mr. February had already taken down part of the
statement and I stopped him and made him read over what he had al-
ready taken down, and after she had finished the statement, Attorney
Gordon went to Mr. Dorsey’s office and then he came back to the police
station. After he returned the affidavit was read over in the presence of
Mr. Pickett, Craven, Campbell, Albert McKnight and Attorney Gordon

and she signed it in our presence. You (Mr. Dorsey) had nothing to do
with holding her. You told me over the phone that you couldn’t say what
I could do, but that I could do what I pleased about it.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
No, I did not lock her up because she didn’t give us the right kind of
statement; as to the authority I had to lock her up, it was reasonable and
right that she should be locked up. I did that for the best interest of the
case I was working on. No, I didn’t have any warrant for her arrest.
She was brought to Mr. Dorsey’s office by a bailiff by a subpoena. I took
her away from Dorsey’s office and put her in a patrol wagon. I expect
Mr. Dorsey knew we were going to lock her up, but he did not tell us to
do it. No, he didn’t disapprove of it. I didn’t know anything about her
having made a previous statement to Mr. Dorsey. I think Mr. Dorsey
said she had made such a statement. I saw her the next day in the sta-
tion house. She didn’t scream after leaving Dorsey’s office until she
reached the sidewalk. And then she commenced hollering and carrying
on that she was going to jail; that she didn’t know anything about it, or
something like that. No, I had no warrant for her arrest. She had com-
mitted no crime. I held her to get the truth. Mr. Dorsey told me I could
turn her loose as I pleased. That was after she made the statement. I
told him as to what had occurred and that her attorney, Gordon, was
coming up there to see him. I told Col. Gordon that if it was agreeable
with Col. Dorsey, that Minola could go as far as we were concerned.
Well, Mr. Dorsey had more or less to do with the case that I was working
on and I wanted to act on his advice and consent. He called me on the
telephone and told me that if the chief thought it best or if we thought it
best after conferring, to just let her go.

DR. CLARENCE JOHNSON, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
I am a specialist on diseases of the stomach and intestines. I am a
physiologist. A physiologist makes his searches on the living body; the
pathologist makes his on a dead body. If you give any one who has
drunk a chocolate milk at about eight o’clock in the morning, cabbage at
12 o’clock and 30 or 40 minutes thereafter you take the cabbage out and
it is shown to be dark like chocolate and milk, that much contents of any
kind vomited up three and a half hours afterwards would show an abnor-
mal stomach. It doesn’t show a normal digestion. If a little girl who
eats a dinner of cabbage and bread at 11:30 is found the next morning
dead at 3 a. m., with a rope around her neck, indented and the flesh stick-
ing up, bruised on the eye, blood on the back of her head, the tongue
sticking out, blue skin, every indication that she came to her death from
strangulation, her head down, rigor mortis had been on her twenty hours,
the blood had settled in her where the gravity would naturally take it in
the face, she is embalmed, formaldehyde is used and injected in the va-
rious cavities of the body, including the stomach, a pathologist takes her

stomach a week or ten days after, finds cabbage of that size (State’s Ex-
hibit G) in the stomach, finds starch granules undigested, and finds in the
stomach that the pyloris is still closed, that there is nothing in the first
six feet of the small intestines; that there is every indication that diges-
tion had been progressing favorably, and finds thirty-two degrees hydro-
chloric acid, and if the pathologist is capable and finds that there was
only combined hydrochloric acid and that there was no abnormal condi-
tion of the stomach the six feet of the intestines was empty, I would say
that the digestion of bread and cabbage was stopped within an hour after
they were eaten. That would not be a wild guess in my opinion.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

The bruises on the head, the evidence of strangulation and other in-
juries about the head are other possible factors which must be taken into
consideration. Anything which disturbs the circulation of the blood, or
hinders the action of the nerves controlling the stomach, especially the
secretion, prevents the development of the characteristics found in nor-
mal digestion one hour after a meal. I mean by mechanical condition of
the stomach, no change in the size or thickness, or opening into the intes-
tines, or size or thickness of intestines. The test should be made with
absolute accuracy with these acids. The color test is generally accepted.
A man’s eye has to be absolutely correct to make the color test. The de-
gree of acidity in a normal stomach varies from 30 to 45 degrees, accord-
ing to the stomach and what is in it. The formaldehyde would make no
change on the physical property on the pancreatic juice found in the
small intestine after death. There would be hardly any change on its
chemical property. When it comes in contact with the formaldehyde it
is supposed to be preserved. It has some neutralizing effect on the al-
kali present. That decomposes in time after death, unless hindered by
some preservative. The hydrochloric acids in the stomach also disap-
pear if the stomach has disintegrated and the preservative has disap-
peared. It disappears like the other fluids and tissues of the body un-
less hindered by some preservative agent. Sometimes digestion is de-
layed a good deal even in a normal stomach by insufficient mastication,
too much diluting of the juices, or anything that hinders the operation of
the mechanical effect. Insufficient mastication is one of the commonest
causes, also the taking of too much liquid. Fatigue occasioned by exten-
sive walking would hinder it. If the walking was not too extensive to
produce fatigue, it would help digestion in a normal stomach. Insuffi-
cient mastication is the worst cause of delayed digestion. My estimate
was that the cabbage was found an hour after the process of digestion
had begun. I did not undertake to say when the digestion began. You
can’t tell by looking at food in a bottle how much the failure to masticate
it delayed digestion in hours and minutes. It would be just an estimate.
The physical appearance of that cabbage (Defendant’s Exhibit 88)
shows indigestion by the layer, character and size, and area of separa-

tion between, and the character and arrangement of the layers below.
The mere fact that it was vomited up would be proof positive that no
scientific opinion could be made about it. To make a scientific test I
would have to test the mechanism of the stomach, the time it was in there
and the degree and presence of the different acids. The chocolate milk
would not naturally stay in a normal stomach five or six hours. The cab-
bage would stay in a normal empty stomach where there was a tomato
also three or four hours. I never made any test of Mary Phagan’s stom-
ach and examined the contents of it.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
160 cubic cc. of liquid in the stomach taken out nine days afterwards
would be a little in excess of what I would consider normal under the con-
ditions already named.

DR. GEORGE M. NILES, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
I confine my work to diseases of digestion. Every healthy stomach
has a certain definite and orderly relation to every other healthy stomach.
Assuming a young lady between thirteen and fourteen years of age at
11:30 April 26, 1913, eats a meal of cabbage and bread, that the next
morning about three o’clock her dead body is found. That there are in-
dentations in her neck where a cord had been around her throat, indicat-
ing that she died of strangulation, her nails blue, her face blue, a slight
injury on the back of the head, a contused bruise on one of her eyes, the
body is found with the face down, rigor mortis had been on from sixteen
to twenty hours, that the blood in the body has settled in the part where
gravity would naturally carry it, that the body is embalmed immediately
with a fluid consisting chiefly of formaldehyde, which is injected in the
veins and cavities of the body; that she is disinterred nine days there-
after; that cabbage of this texture (State’s Exhibit G) is found in her
stomach; that the position of the stomach is normal; that no inflamma-
tion of the stomach is found by microscopic investigation; that no mu-
cous is found, and that the glands found under this microscope are found
to be normal, that there is no obstruction to the flow of the contents of the
stomach to the small intestine; that the pyloris is closed; that there is
every indication that digestion was progressing favorably; that in the
gastric juices there is found starch granules that are shown by the color
test to have been undigested, and that in that stomach you also find
thirty-two degrees of hydrochloric acid, no maltose, no dextrin, no free
hydrochloric acid (there would be more or less free hydrochloric acid in
the course of an hour or more in the orderly progress of digestion of a
healthy stomach where the contents are carbohydrates), I would say that
indicated that digestion had been progressing less than an hour. The
starch digestion should have progressed beyond the state erythrodex-
trin in course of an hour. There should have been enough free acid to
have stimulated the pyloris to relax to a certain extent, and there should

have been some contents in the duodenum. I am assuming, of course,
that it is a healthy stomach and that the digestion was not disturbed by
any psychic cause which would disturb the mind or any severe physical
exercise. I am not going so much on the physical appearance of the cab-
bage. Any severe physical exercise or mental stress has quite an influ-
ence on digestion. Death does not change the composition of the gastric
juices when combined with hydrochloric acid for quite awhile. The gas-
tric juices combined with the hydrochloric acid are an antiseptic or pre-
servative. There is a wide variation in diseased stomachs as to diges-
tion.

GROSS EXAMINATION

There are idiosyncracies in a normal stomach, but where they are too
marked I would not consider that a normal stomach. I wouldn’t say that
there is a mechanical rule where you can measure the digestive power of
every stomach for every kind of food. There is a set time for every stom-
ach to digest every kind of food within fairly regular limits, that is, a
healthy stomach. There is a fairly mixed standard. There is no great
amount of variation between healthy stomachs. I can’t answer for how
long it takes cabbage to digest. I have taken cabbage out of a cancerous
stomach that had been in there twenty-four hours, but there was no ob-
struction. The longest time that I have taken cabbage out of a fairly nor-
mal stomach was between four and five hours. That was where it was in
the stomach along with another meal. I found the cabbage among the re-
mains of the meal four or five hours after it had been eaten. Mastication
is a very important function of digestion. Failure to masticate delays the
starch digestion. Starch and cabbage are both carbohydrates. I would
say that if cabbage went into a healthy stomach not well masticated, the
starch digestion would not get on so well, but the stomach would get busy
at once. Of course, it would not be prepared as well. The digestion
would be delayed, of course. That cabbage is not as well digested as it
.zhould have been (State’s exhibit G), but the very fact of your anticipat-
ing a good meal, smelling it, starts your saliva going and forms the first
stage of digestion, and digestion is begun right there in the mouth, even
if you haven’t chewed it a single time. Any deviation from good masti-
cation retards digestion. I couldn’t presume to say how long that cab-
bage lay in Mary Phagan’s stomach. I believe if it had been a live,
healthy stomach and the process of digestion was going on orderly, it
would be pulverized in four or five hours. It would be more broken
up and tricturated than it is. I wouldn’t consider that a wild
guess. I think it would have been fairly well pulverized in three
hours. Chewing amounts to a great deal, but there should be an
amount of saliva in her stomach even if she hadn’t masticated it thor-
oughly. Chewing is a temperamental matter to a great extent. One
man chews his meal quicker than another. If it isn’t chewed at all, the
stomach gets busy and helps out all it can and digests it after awhile. It

takes more effort, of course, but not necessarily more time. What the
teeth fail to do the stomach does to a great extent. The stomach has an
extra amount of work if it is not masticated. You can’t tell by looking
at the cabbage how long it had been undergoing the process of digestion.
If that was a healthy stomach with combined acid of 32 degrees, and
nothing happened either physical or mental to interfere with digestion,
those laboratory findings indicated that digestion had been progressing
less than an hour. I never made an autopsy or examination of the con-
tents of Mary Phagan’s stomach.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
The first stage of digestion is starch digestion. This progresses in
the stomach until the contents become acid in all its parts. Then the
starch digestion stops until the contents get out in the intestines and be-
come alkaline in reaction; then the starch digestion is continued on be-
yond. The alfactories act as a stimulant to the salivary glands.

DR. JOHN FUNK, sworn for the State in rebuttal.
I am professor of pathology and bacteriologist. I was shown by Dr.
Harris sections from the vaginal wall of Mary Phagan, sections taken
near the skin surface. I didn’t see sections from the stomach or the con-
tents. These sections showed that the epithelium wall was torn off at
points immediately beneath that covering in the tissues below, and there
was infiltrated pressure of blood. They were, you might say, engorged,
and the white blood cells in those blood vessels were more numerous than
you will find in a normal blood vessel. The blood vessels at some distance
from the torn point were not so engorged to the same extent as those
blood vessels immediately in the vicinity of the hemorrhage. Those
blood vessels were larger than they should be under normal circum-
stances, as compared with the blood vessels in the vicinity of the tear.
You couldn’t tell about any discoloration, but there was blood there. It
is reasonable to suppose that there was swelling there because of the in-
filtrated pressure of the blood in the tissues. Those conditions must have
been produced prior to death, because the blood could not invade the tis-
sues after death. If a young lady, between thirteen and fourteen years
old eats at eleven thirty a. m. a normal meal of bread and cabbage on a
Saturday and at three a. m. Sunday morning she is found with a cord
around her neck, the skin indented, the nails and flesh cyanotic, the tongue
out and swollen, blue nails, everything indicating that she had been
strangled to death, that rigor mortis had set in, and according to the best
authorities had probably progressed from sixteen to twenty hours, and
she was laying face down when found, and gravity had forced the blood
into that part of the body next to the ground, that it had discolored her
features, that immediately thereafter, between ten and two o’clock she
was embalmed with a fluid containing usual amount of formaldehyde,
this being injected into the veins in the large cavities, she is interred

thereafter and in about a week or ten days she is disinterred, and you
find in her stomach cabbage like that (State’s Exhibit G) and you find
granules of starch undigested, and those starch granules are developed
by the usual color tests, and you also find in that stomach thirty-two de-
grees of combined hydrochloric acid, the pyloris closed, and the duo-
denum, and six feet of the small intestines empty, no free hydrochloric
acid being present at all, nor dextrin, or erythrodextrin being found in
any degree, and the uterus was somewhat enlarged, and the walls of the
vagina show dilation and swelling, I would say that under those condi-
tions that the epithelium was torn off before death, because of the
changes in the blood vessels and tissues below the epithelium covering,
and because of the presence of blood. I would not express an opinion as
to how long cabbage had been in the stomach, from the appearance of the
cabbage itself, taking into consideration the combined hydrochloric acid
of thirty-two degrees, the emptiness of the small intestine, the presence
of starch granules, and the absence of free hydrochloric acid, one can’t
say positively, but it is reasonable to assume that the digestion had pro-
gressed probably an hour, maybe a little more, maybe a little less.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Dr. Dorsey asked me to examine the sections of the vaginal wall last
Saturday. The sections I examined were about a quarter of an inch wide
and three-quarters of an inch long. It was about nine twenty-five thou-
sandths of an inch thick, that is, much thinner than tissue paper. I ex-
amined thirty or forty little strips. That was after this trial began. I
was not present at the autopsy. As soon as a tissue receives an injury,
it reacts in a very short time. The reaction shows up in the changes of
the blood vessels. You can tell by the appearance of the blood vessels
whether the injury was before death or not, and you can give an approx-
imate idea as to the length of time before death. I do not know from what
body the sections were taken. I know that it was from a human vagina.

THE STATE CLOSES.

EVIDENCE FOR DEFENDANT IN SUR-REBUTTAL.

T. Y. BRENT, sworn for the Defendant in sur-rebuttal.

I have heard George Kendley on several occasions express himself
very bitterly towards Leo Frank. He said he felt in this case just as he
did about a couple of negroes hung down in Decatur; that he didn’t know
whether they had been guilty or not, but somebody had to be hung for
killing those street car men and it was just as good to hang one nigger as
another, and that Frank was nothing but an old Jew and they ought to
take him out and hang him anyhow.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I have been employed by the defense to assist in subpoenaing wit-
nesses. I took the part of Jim Conley in the experiment conducted by
Dr. Win. Owens at the factory on Sunday..

M. E. STAHL, sworn for the Defendant, in sur-rebuttal.

I have heard George Kendley, the conductor, express his feelings
toward Leo Frank. I was standing on the rear platform, and he said
that Frank was as guilty as a snake, and should be hung, and that if the
court didn’t convict him that he would be one of five or seven that would
get him.

MISS C. S. HAAS, sworn for the Defendant, in sur-rebuttal.

I heard Kendley two weeks ago talk about the Frank case so loud
that the entire street car heard it. He said that circumstantial evidence
was the best kind of evidence to convict a man on and if there was any
doubt, the State should be given the benefit of it, and that 90 per cent. of
the best people in the city, including himself, thought that Frank was
guilty and ought to hang.

N. SINKOVITZ, sworn for the Defendant, in sur-rebuttal.

I am a pawnbroker. I know M. E. McCoy. He has pawned his watch
to me lately. The last time was January 11, 1913. It was in my place of
business on the 26th of April, 1913. He paid up his loan on August 16th,
last Saturday, during this trial. This is the same watch I have been
handling for him during the last two years.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

My records here show that he took it out Saturday.

S. L. ASHER, sworn for the Defendant in sur-rebuttal.

About two weeks ago I was coming to town between 5 and 10 minutes
to 1 on the car and there was a man who was talking very loud about the
Frank case, and all of a sudden he said: “They ought to take that damn
Jew out and hang him anyway.” I took his number down to report him.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I have not had a chance to report since it happened.

ADDITIONAL STATEMENT MADE BY DEFENDANT,
LEO M. FRANK.

In reply to the statement of the boy that he saw me talking to Mary
Phagan when she backed away from me, that is absolutely false, that
never occurred. In reply to the two girls, Robinson and Hewel, that they
saw me talking to Mary Phagan and that I called her” Mary,” I wish to
say that they are mistaken. It is very possible that I have talked to the
little girl in going through the factory and examining the work, but I
never knew her name, either to call her “Mary Phagan,” “Miss Pha-
gan,” or “Mary.”

In reference to the statements of the two women who say that they
saw me going into the dressing room with Miss Rebecca Carson, I wish
to state that that is utterly false. It is a slander on the young lady, and
I wish to state that as far as my knowledge of Miss Rebecca Carson goes,
she is a lady of unblemished character.

DEFENDANT CLOSES.

See: the brief of evidence affidavits

References:

For the complete original trial testimony: http://www.leofrank.info/library/georgia-archives/

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