Another in our series of new transcriptions of contemporary articles on the Leo Frank case.

Atlanta Journal

Thursday, May 8^th, 1913

L. A. Quinn was called to the stand. He lives at 31B Julliam street, he said, and is foreman of the metal department at the National Pencil factory. Mary Phagan worked in his department, he said. The last time he saw her was on the Monday preceding the murder, he said. She left the plant about 2 o’clock that Monday, said he. That was earlier than usual, but she left because the metal with which she worked had run out and she wanted to hurry to the matinee. He didn’t know any of her intimate friends, said he. She worked with Helen Ferguson and Grace Hix and Magnolia Kennedy, said he, and Henry Smith and John Ramey also worked in that department.

He worked on Friday, April 25, until 5:30 o’clock, said Quinn. He got his pay and left with the understanding that he would come to work on Monday.

The next morning, Saturday, he got up about 7 o’clock. Later he went uptown with his wife to get a picture made of their baby. Then they went back home. He came up town again, said he. He was stopped there, and questioned closely about hours and minutes.

He left home about 9:30 o’clock, he said. He and his wife and baby went straight to Kuhn’s photograph studio. They were there about ten minutes, he said.

They stopped next at the Globe Clothing company’s store on Whitehall street, said he, and talked for a while with some friends of his in there. He named them. He and his wife were there about five or ten minutes. They went from there down to a meat market in the next block south and bought some meat, staying there about five minutes. Farther down the street they stopped in at a soda water stand and bought some soft drinks. They arrived home about 11:15 o’clock. He remained in the house about thirty minutes. He left there about 11:45 o’clock, for town again, to get to the market before it closed, so he could buy some supplies for Sunday. He bought some meat and vegetables on that trip, said he. He could not describe the man he bought the meat from. He bought the vegetables first, from a man about five feet eleven inches tall, 165-170 pounds in weight, clean shaved. The man seemed to be a foreigner. He looked like an Italian.

HE WENT TO THE FACTORY.

From the meat market he went to Benjamin’s pharmacy and bought some cigars from a man named Pounds. He arrived there at a few minutes after 12 o’clock. He went on up Whitehall, left on Hunter street, to Forsyth, and then to the pencil factory. There was nothing unusual about him going to the factory on holidays, said the witness. He did so often. He wanted to speak to “Mr. Schiff” on this occasion, said he. He found the front door unlocked. He did not see Mary Phagan. He got there some time between 12:20 and 12:25, said he.

He was asked how he observed the time so minutely.

He figured it on the time he left home, said he.  He knew he left there about 11:45 o’clock, because he looked at his watch several times while he was at home. He walked to town, up Pulliam to Garnett, to Whitehall, and so to the market. It took him about 10 or 15 minutes to make the walk. It was pretty close to 12 o’clock when he got to the market, said he. He did not remember looking at his watch after he left home. It didn’t take him long to buy the meat and vegetables. He bought 40 cents worth of steak. He was waited on immediately. It took him about ten minutes, however, he said, to buy the vegetables. He wasn’t around the market longer than ten or twelve minutes. He stopped two or three minutes in Benjamin’s on the corner. The walk from there to the factory took about five minutes. He went straight to the office. He didn’t go anywhere else. He didn’t remember hearing the noon whistles blow.

WHEN HE SAW MR. FRANK.

He found Mr. Frank in the latter’s private office. They exchanged “good mornings,” he said. “Is Mr. Schiff in?” Quinn said he inquired. “No, I don’t suppose he will be down today,” Quinn said Mr. Frank replied. “You see you can’t keep me away even on holidays,” Quinn said he remarked to Mr. Frank. He said that Mr. Frank answered, “Yes,” and laughed, and nothing else was said. He was there in the office about two minutes, said he. He wasn’t positive about the exact time. He didn’t think it could be as early as 12:15 when he arrived there. It could have been between 12:20 and 12:35, he admitted.

“Could it have been as late as 12:30 o’clock?” he was asked.

“It could have been, but it wasn’t.”

“Why are you so positive?”

“Because I was somewhere else at 12:30,” the witness answered.

He continued that when he left the factory he stopped to talk with “Mr. Maulsby” at Mr. Maulsby’s place of business two doors from the factory. He offered Mr. Maulsby a cigar. Maulsby told him “those girls are in the restaurant,” and he answered “I know it; I saw them when I came up.” He told the names of two young women, one of whom was then a bride and the other of whom still worked in the factory.

IS AT FACTORY NOW.

Mr. Quinn said that he thought Miss Corinthia Hall is at the pencil factory this Thursday. The Miss Hall he saw at the undertaker’s establishment was a stenographer at Montag Brothers, and not Miss Corinthia Hall, he said.

The witness said that his purpose in going to the factory Saturday was to see Mr. Schiff and talk baseball with him. He had been accustomed to drop by the factory often on Saturdays and holidays, he said.

Mr. Quinn said that after leaving the factory he met the young ladies—Miss Hall and Mrs. Freeman—at the Busy Bee café, at the corner of Forsyth and Hunter streets.

In reply to a question from the coroner, he said that he thinks Mrs. Freeman is at the factory this Thursday.

Mrs. Freeman, who is about seventeen years old, had been married the day before—Friday—he said. Mr. Quinn said that he wanted to chat with her about the wedding. They remained in the café only a few minutes, he said, all three leaving together. Mr. Quinn said that he went to DeFoor Brothers pool parlor, getting there about 12:30, and chatted with the proprietors until about 1:15.

The coroner at this point asked Mr. Quinn if he knew May Barrett.

He replied, “Yes, she is employed in the varnishing department of the pencil factory.”

A FIFTEEN-MINUTE WALK.

In response to a question, Mr. Quinn said that it takes him about fifteen minutes to walk from his home to the pencil factory.

Going back to his visit to the pool room, Mr. Quinn said that after chatting baseball with the proprietors, he went to the Atlanta theater to buy a ticket.

Here Mr. Quinn said in response to a question that he knows John Rainey.

Just after he had bought his ticket at the theater, Mr. Quinn said, he saw Cliff Dodgen, an employee of the theater. The witness said that he didn’t remember exactly where his seat in the theater was, but thought it was on the ninth row, in the center aisle. No one that he knew sat near him that he remembered, he said.

The witness said in reply to the coroner’s question that Mr. Frank wore a brown suit Saturday.

Mr. Quinn said that he went to the factory about 9:30 o’clock Sunday morning. He met Mr. Darley and Ed Montag, an officer of the factory there, he said, and they went in the basement together.

The witness said that he heard of the murder about 9 o’clock Sunday morning when he went to a soda water stand near his home. Officer Payne and the men in charge of the stand were discussing it, he said, and told him. Mr. Quinn said that he gathered from the description given him then that the victim must have been Helen Ferguson. He was told that her first name was Mary, he said, and asked if the last was Phagan. The soda water man recalled it then.

The witness said that he then went to the undertaker’s establishment and looked at the body.

DENIED STATEMENT TO OFFICER.

He said that on Sunday afternoon he saw Mr. Frank at the undertaker’s. Mr. Frank wore a blue or a black suit then, he said.

Mr. Quinn denied that he had told Officer Payne or Detective Starnes that he hadn’t been to the factory since Friday.

He declared that when he had talked with Detective Starnes and Campbell at the rear door of the factory he had not stated that he hadn’t ben to the factory since Friday.

Mr. Quinn was asked about the white material used in his department. It was known as “hascolene,” he said, and was used as a lubricant for the machines. It came shipped in barrels, he said.

The witness said that on Tuesday or Wendesday in the detectives office, he recalled his visit to Mr. Frank on Saturday and that Mr. Frank remembered it readily. He told Mr. Frank, he said, that if it would do any good to mention his visit he would tell of it. Mr. Frank suggested that he mention it to his lawyer first, the witness said.

At this point Mr. Quinn, in response to a question, again denied that he had told Officer Payne or Detective Starnes or Campbell that he hadn’t been to the factory since Friday.

The witness said that he knew Miss Grace Jones and that he thinks she has been at the factory since the tragedy. He hadn’t accompanied Miss Jones from the factory; he said, and had not seen her since the tragedy, except on the fourth floor of the factory. He had talked to her there, he said, to see if she would not come to work in his department in case there were a number of vacancies that were anticipated. Mr. Quinn said that he didn’t remember discussing the Phagan case with Miss Jones.

Mr. Quinn said that he paid the Colemans a visit of consolation on Thursday. He went, he said, at the suggestion of Mr. Darley and Miss Magnolia Kennedy and because he thought he should go. His visit was purely one of consolation, he said.

Coroner Donehoo then asked Quinn:

“Did you ever tell Mr. Coleman (Mary Phagan’s stepfather) how Frank acted toward the girls in your department?”

“No, sir.”

“Did you ever tell Mr. Coleman how you treated the girls?”

“Yes, I told him I had always tried to make the girls feel at home. Frequently in fixing their machines, I would tell them to ‘Get out of the way and let papa fix it.’ I told Mr. Coleman how jolly Mary was—about a remark she made once: ‘Yes, you look like papa!”

“Do you know a man named Barrett?”

“Yes.”

“You never mentioned to him that you went to the pencil factory that Saturday?”

“No, sir.”

“When was the first time that you told anybody that you had been up there Saturday?”

“I told my father the next day, on Sunday. I didn’t tell Chief Lanford or any of the detectives until last Monday.”

“Why did you withhold that information?”

“I wasn’t asked about it.”

“You didn’t consider it your duty to tell unless you were asked?”

“No, I didn’t want to be dragged into it any sooner than necessary.”

“State what else you know, that you have retained.”

“Nothing.”

“You are not withholding anything then?”

“No, sir, nothing.”

“You say it was your duty to come down and see Mr. Frank after his arrest?”

“Yes, sir.”

“Do you consider it your duty to protect Mr. Frank?”

“No, sir.”

HIS PAY WENT ON.

He was asked if his pay went on while he called upon Mr. Frank at the jail, and said yes. Answering further questions, he said that now and then he got away for matinees, etc., but that his pay went on, that he wasn’t docked for absences. He was asked about his call at the jail.

“You came down and recalled your visit to Mr. Frank. Did he tell you to keep quiet about it until he had told his lawyers?”

“No. He remarked that he was going to tell his lawyers.” He said that Mr. Frank remembered his having been there, but did not remember the time of the visit until his attention was called to it.

“Why did you volunteer this information to Mr. Frank and not to the detectives?”

“I knew he couldn’t question me for three or four hours and the detectives could.”

“Did Mr. Frank consider it advisable that nothing be known about this?”

“No, sir. Mr. Frank didn’t ask me not to tell about it. I didn’t volunteer to tell it, because I expected to be asked every day.”

“Why didn’t you want to be questioned?”

“I knew they had three or four men holding them here, and they could hold me if they wanted to, as I had been in the building on Saturday.”

Other questions intervened, and then the coroner asked:

“Did you go out to Mrs. White’s yesterday?”

“No, sir; I don’t know Mrs. White.”

“Arthur White’s wife—you know Arthur White?”

“Yes, but I never have been out to his house.”

Quinn was excused from the stand at this juncture.

* * *

Atlanta Journal, May 8th 1913, “Lemmie Quinn Grilled by Coroner But He Sticks to His Statement,” Leo Frank case newspaper article series (Original PDF)

Another in our series of new transcriptions of contemporary articles on the Leo Frank case.

Atlanta Constitution
August 16^th, 1913

Emma Hill, a maid in the Schiff home was called to tell of a telephone message for Herbert Schiff, made by Frank on the morning of the tragedy.

“Do you remember anybody trying to call Schiff on the 26^th of April?”

“Yes, sir. Somebody who sounded like a boy, rang the phone and said tell Mr. Schiff that Mr. Frank wanted him at the office to do some work.”

“What time was it?”

“It was about 11 o’clock. I woke Mr. Schiff and he said tell whoever it was at the phone that he would be there when he got up. He went back to sleep.”

Cross-examination by Mr. Dorsey.

“How long have you been at the Schiff home?”

“Seven years.”

“Why do you remember this especial Saturday?”
“Because it was Memorial day—everybody knows Memorial day.”

“Who did you first tell about this phone conversation?”
“I don’t remember.”

“Who first saw you about it?”
“Nobody but the lawyer.”

“What lawyer?”
“Herbert Haas.”

“And you never mentioned a word of it to a soul before that?”
“No, sir.”

“What did Haas say to you?”
“Nothing. He just gave me the subpoena to court.”

* * *

Atlanta Constitution, August 16th 1913, “Maid in Schiff Home Tells of Phone Message From Frank,” Leo Frank case newspaper article series (Original PDF)

Another in our series of new transcriptions of contemporary articles on the Leo Frank case.

Atlanta Constitution
August 12^th, 1913

H. G. Schiff, Leo Frank’s assistant in the National Pencil factory, was put on the stand for a conclusion of the state’s cross examination when court convened Monday morning.

“How many books and papers were there that you say had not been worked on Friday night, and that you found completed Monday?” asked Solicitor Hugh Dorsey.

“The financial sheet and those papers I showed you Saturday,” Schiff replied.

[several words illegible] finished Friday?”
“Because when I left the office Friday I had not got up the data for them,” the witness said.

“If Frank had started to work at 8:30 o’clock Saturday morning and had worked until 10:30, then he could have done that work, couldn’t he?” the solicitor asked.

“Yes, I think he could have.”

“Isn’t it true that he could have done the work in one and a half hours?” [several words illegible]

“Didn’t you hear him say he could?”
“No, I did not.”

“Dictation to the stenographer and the work necessary to complete the financial sheet represents all the work of that kind done in the office that day, doesn’t it?”
“Yes, as far as I know.”

“Is there anything to show that Frank had anything to do with billing those eleven orders?”
“Yes, his handwriting shows he did it.”

Witness Admits Mistake.

By a series of questions the solicitor finally got the witness confused on one point and made him admit a mistake. He then took up Schiff’s testimony before the inquest.

“Didn’t you say at the inquest that it would take from one and a half to two hours to get up the financial sheet?”
Schiff declared that he had sworn to two and a half to three hours, or there had been a mistake somewhere.

“Well, if you swore to one and a half hours to two hours then and now make the time longer, will you please tell the jury why?” asked Solicitor Dorsey.

“I must have misunderstood the question if I swore anything like that at the inquest.”

“If a man was working on a job like this and for some reason wanted to get through quicker than usual, wouldn’t he be able to do it in thirty minutes less than usual?”
“Not and make it look the same and be accurate,” replied Schiff.

“Isn’t Frank a faster worker than you?”

“Yes, on financial work.”

“How much?”

“I can’t say.”

“Didn’t you tell the coroner that Frank could get up the financial sheet in half an hour less time than you?”
“No, I just estimated it.”

“Do you deny that you answered it that way?”

“I don’t deny the answer, but I didn’t’ use those terms.”

“Did you tell the coroner that it would take one and a half hours to balance about $60 to $70?”
“Yes, but I didn’t mean exactly that. I meant that you can do it if you balance right away. You see, our money is kept in nickels and dimes and it takes a long time to count it.”

Denies Thanksgiving Day Incident.

After referring to last Thanksgiving day one of the occasions mentioned by Jim Conley in his declaration that he acted as “lookout” for Frank, the solicitor began asking Schiff about that date.

“Do you know what Frank did that day?”
“I was with him in the office until 12:30 and I know he did not come back to the factory that afternoon.”

“How do you know it?”
“A man who was with him told me.”

“Oh,” said the solicitor sarcastically, “ you told when Mr. Arnold was talking to you that Frank did not come back and you gave the jury the impression that you knew it and now you admit it was only hearsay.”

“I didn’t say I was with him that afternoon,” retorted Schiff.

Mr. Dorsey then questioned the witness as to his statement that he remembered the presence of Helen Ferguson in the factory on the day before the murder and he declared that he remembered her and could name a hundred others who were there. The solicitor asked him to name twenty-five, and after he had named several, interrupted by asking him how he remembered so much about that particular occasion. Schiff replied that the murder came right after that and that he had tried to think of everything that had happened the day before and while it was fresh in his mind had impressed it upon himself.

“How do you regulate the clock?”
“By watches and by the 12 o’clock whistle in factories.”

“Do you deny that the clock was five minutes fast?”

“No, but I don’t think it ever was.”

“Do you keep employees who are unreliable and untruthful?”
“We have done so.”

“And you have them there now, haven’t you?” asked Mr. Dorsey.

Judge L. S. Roan sustained the defense in its objection to this question.

Didn’t Try to Fire Conley.

“When did you discover Conley to be unreliable?” the solicitor next asked.

“The first time I spoke to him.”

“Didn’t you try to fire him and didn’t Frank overrule you?”
“No.”
“Whoever talked to you about Conley’s unworthiness?”
“Plenty of people.”

“For instance, Miss Rebecca Carson,” commented the solicitor.

“Did you think enough of these complaints to protest to Frank?”
“I was not under Mr. Frank’s authority,” Schiff replied.

“Oh, you had authority to fire Conley?”
“Yes.”

“Why didn’t you do it?”
“He [k]new the business too well.”

“When did you first discover his worthlessness?”
“In the first days he went to work.”

“Who called your attention to it?”
“I can’t recollect, he’s been to the chaingang two or three times.”

“You are sure, I suppose, that he’s been to the chaingang?”
“Yes.”

“State positive, now, whether you know by fact or hearsay, that he’s been to the chaingang,” said Mr. Dorsey.

Objection by Attorney Reuben Arnold started a lengthy dispute.

Judge Roan ruled that the witness could tell only what he knew, and the subject was then changed to the pencil tablets found in the basement.

“Should yellow tablets ever be kept in the basement?”
“No.”

“Have you ever seen them there?”
“Yes.”

Knew Conley Could Write.

“Did you Jim Conley could write?”
“Yes, I’ve seen him writing in the basement.”

“Did you see Frank on April 29, the day of his arrest?”
“I saw him that morning.”

“Frank was anxious about getting the Pinkertons, wasn’t he?”
“Yes.”

“You say Jim Conley was acting suspiciously. Why didn’t you tell Frank about it?”

“I was fixing to go tell Mr. Darley.”

“Were you at the factory when the detectives were testing the elevator to see if the noise could be heard on the fourth floor?”

“I was there a while.”

“Were you there when Jim went through the factory?”

“Yes.”

Judge Urges Haste.

Objection to this question was sustained and Judge Roan asked that the defense not cause any unnecessary delay.

“This is no case to hurry on,” said Attorney Rosser.

Mr. Arnold then assured the court that they would progress as rapidly as possible. He then took up the examination again.

“You said that making up the financial sheet would require two and a half hours if there were no interruptions?”

“Yes.”

“Was Frank frequently interrupted?”
“Yes.”

“In the time you have been at the factory, at what time have you known the financial sheet to be made up?”
“Only on Saturday afternoons after Mr. Frank and I got back from dinner,” replied the witness.

“Did you ever see a curtain over the glass doors to Frank’s office?”
“No, sir.”

“Did you ever hear any ‘ter-do’ about the white stuff found partly covering t[h]e blood spots?”
“No, sir.”

“State whether or not it is easy to get help?”
“It is not.”

“Did the detectives find out that Conley could write by going to you?”
“Yes, sir.”

“Was Jim Conley familiar with the basement?”
“Yes, he sure was.”

“Did Mr. Dorsey subpoena you?”
“No, he telephoned me.”

Dorsey Renews Questioning.

Mr. Dorsey then renewed his cross-examination.

“Was it customary for Frank to make engagements on Friday afternoon to go to places Saturday afternoon and leave the financial sheet uncompleted when it had to be at Montag’s on Monday?”
“No.”

“How long would it take Frank to go from the Pencil factory to Montag’s?”
“I don’t know.”

“There are only short blocks along the way, aren’t there?”
“The block on Forsyth from Hunter to Mitchell is a long one,” replied the witness.

“What time on Monday was it that you observed the peculiar bearing of Conley?”
“About 7:30 or 8 in the morning.”

“What time was it you went with Starnes to arrest Gantt?”
“In the morning. I don’t know what time.”

“Was it after the plant was shut down that you went with Starnes to arrest Gantt?”
“Yes.”

“You don’t know whether the detectives found out Conley could write before you told them, do you?”
“No, sir.”

Mr. Arnold held the witness for one more question.

“Is there any way to shut all the light out of the metal room in the day time?”

“No, sir,” the witness replied. He was then excused, having been on the stand for two hours and forty-five minutes Monday.

* * *

Atlanta Constitution, August 12th 1913, “Schiff Admits He Kept Conley Knowing He Was Worthless,” Leo Frank case newspaper article series (Original PDF)

Another in our series of new transcriptions of contemporary articles on the Leo Frank case.

Atlanta Journal
August 11^th, 1913

DR. GEORGE BACHMAN GIVES TESTIMONY TO SHOW HARRIS SIMPLY HAZARDED A GUESS

Professor of Physiology at Atlanta College of Physicians and Surgeons Declares Dr. Harris Is the Only Doctor He Knows Who Would Undertake to Express the Opinion That Dr. Harris Did in Reference to Mary Phagan’s Death

FRANK A NORMAL MAN, SAYS DR. T. H. HANCOCK WHO TOOK WITNESS STAND MONDAY AFTERNOON

Herbert G. Schiff, Frank’s Young Assistant, Was Under Cross-Examination Several Hours Monday—He Said He Had Never Heard Complaint That Factory Clock Ran Five Minutes Fast and Denied That Frank Had Objected to His Firing Conley

Only two witnesses were examined at the Monday morning session of the trial of Leo M. Frank, charged with the murder of Mary Phagan. They were Herbert G. Schiff, assistant superintendent of the factory, who was under cross-examination the greater part of the morning, and Dr. George Bachman, professor of physiology in the Atlanta College of Physicians and Surgeons.

Dr. Bachman declared that Dr. H. F. Harris was the only physician he ever heard of who would express such an opinion as Dr. Harris had given from the witness stand previously. He said that an opinion as to the length of time that food had been in the stomach under most any circumstances would be but a hazardous guess, and that it would be utterly impossible to determine how long since food had been eaten by a post-mortem examination made nine or ten days after death of a body that had been embalmed. The embalming fluid, he declared, would add seriously to the difficulties of forming a correct opinion. The sum and substance of Dr. Bachman’s testimony was that it was impossible to fix the time of little Mary Phagan’s death by any analysis or examination of the food that was found in her stomach.

Dr. Bachman was not asked to testify in reference to Dr. Harris’ declaration that Mary Phagan had suffered violence prior to her death, but it is probable that some of the experts who follow him will be asked in reference to this feature of the case.

Dr. T. H. Hancock, of the Atlanta hospital and part owner of that infirmary, was called by the defense as its first witness after the resumption of court Monday afternoon.

Dr. Hancock testified regarding a thorough physical examination which he made of Leo M. Frank, the accused, certifying that in every way so far as he could determine Frank is like other men in his physique.

During the afternoon other physicians are expected to take the stand in further refutation of Dr. Harris’ testimony. Dr. Willis Westmoreland, Dr. Thomas H. Hancock, and Dr. J. C. Olmstead have all been subpenaed, and each will give testimony, it is said, similar to that of Dr. Bachman.

Although Herbert G. Schiff was under cross-examination many hours, very little was developed by his testimony. He admitted that Frank might have had time to do considerable work on the financial sheet Saturday morning but steadily maintained that from two and a half to three hours would be required for the work and that Frank was accustomed to make up the sheet on Saturday afternoon.

Solicitor Dorsey asked the witness if he did not know that the time clock at the factory ran about five minutes fast, and Schiff replied that he had no such knowledge. He also vigorously denied that he had sought to discharge the negro Jim Conley on account of his worthlessness and Superintendent Frank had objected. He admitted having seen blood spots on the office floor and that one of them had been smeared over with a white substance which looked like hascoline. On redirect examination, however, the witness declared that it was impossible to tell whether the hascoline had been smeared on top of t[h]e spots or the spots on top of the hascoline.

A disposition to hurry the trial of the Frank case as much as is consistent with justice, and even perhaps to attempt its conclusion this week, was indicated by Judge Roan, presiding, Monday afternoon, when shortly before court convened he stated privately that unless there was objection, he probably would hold court until dark Monday afternoon, which would mean until about 6:30 o’clock instead of till 5:30 as heretofore. Judge Roan stated, however, that he had not made up his mind on this point.

Through Deputy Sheriff Plennie Minor it was learned that the jurors are in accord with this longer day plan of the judge.

For about ten minutes Monday morning before court convened Leo M. Frank, accused of the murder of Mary Phagan, examined the model of the pencil factory where the murder occurred and which has been introduced in evidence by his lawyers. The accused first obtained permission of the sheriff, and then in care of a deputy sheriff he entered the press anteroom, where the model had been stored, and looked over it carefully, paying particular attention to the representations of his office and the elevator shaft adjoining it. He made no comment.

At 9 o’clock Monday morning the Frank trial resumed, beginning its third week. With the defendant in court were his wife and his mother and an aunt-in-law, Mrs. Jacob Selig, with whom he had spent about half an hour chatting in a room adjoining court. The court room was filled again with spectators, many others being held back at the doors for lack of room inside.

SCHIFF TAKES STAND.

Herbert Schiff, assistant superintendent, resumed his place on the stand under cross-examination by the state. Solicitor Dorsey asked Schiff a number of questions concerning the financial sheet of the factory.

“This is the only paper that was worked on Saturday, is it not?” asked the solicitor.

“Yes,” replied Schiff.

“How do you know it was done Saturday?”

“I didn’t give him the data until Saturday.”
“You did give him some of it before Saturday, though, didn’t you?”
“No, sir.”

There followed a number of questions regarding the composition of data for the sheet, and Schiff admitted that he gathered the details from the forewomen and foremen of the several departments and made the preliminary calculations preparatory to entering them on the financial sheet. The packing report, in the handwriting of Miss Eula Mae Flowers (according to the witness), was explained by Schiff to the jury as a sample of all the reports handed to him by the heads of departments.

“Was it necessary for Frank to wait till Saturday in order to get this data from you? Couldn’t he do it as well himself?”
“I suppose he could do it. He never has done it before, though.”
“Don’t you know that he’s an expert?” asked the solicitor, pointing to Frank.

“No, sir.”

“Don’t you know that he’s such an expert that you haven’t been able to make up a financial sheet since he left the factory?”

NOT AN EXPERT.

“No, sir. I don’t consider him such an expert. It isn’t so much because we can’t make up financial sheet without him as that we haven’t had the time and opportunity to do it.”

There followed more questions of a technical nature about the financial sheet. The solicitor endeavored to gain the admission from Schiff that the preparation of the sheet would not require so long as had been represented. In answer to questions, Schiff said that the work Frank did on the financial sheet was no more complex than the calculations he had to make himself, Schiff answered all questions promptly and fully—so fully, in fact, that Solicitor Dorsey on several occasions interrupted his answer to put other questions. Once Attorney Arnold interrupted the solicitor with the exclamation, “Give the witness time to answer!” Mr. Arnold then turned to the witness and said, “Mr. Schiff, take your time. Don’t get excited.”

Schiff went into details concerning the finance sheet, explaining the entries concerning various brands of pencils.

“Then Frank didn’t put all those figures on there?”
“No, just the last two lines.”

“Frank would have to have only four […]

MANY EXPERTS CALLED BY DEFENSE TO ANSWER DR. HARRIS

[…] reports in order to make up the finance sheet?”
“That’s all I gave him.”

“What else do you think of that he would need?”
“Nothing.”

“Don’t you know that’s all he needed?”
“That’s all I think of.”

“Do you have any idea when this work on the finance sheet was done?”
“Some time between Friday night and Monday morning.”

“Did you see the finance sheet Monday morning?”
“I did not.”

“If Frank started to work on the finance sheet at 8:10 Friday morning and worked until 10:30, would he have any trouble finishing most of it in that time?”
“I think not.”

“Then if he left at 10:10 and got back at 11, then he would have had a full hour remaining in which to do these other things?”

“Yes. I suppose so.”

“Couldn’t Frank have done all this in an hour and a half?”

“No, it would have taken him two hours and a half.”

“Didn’t you hear Frank say he could do it in an hour and a half?”

“I did not.”

“This finance sheet and the entering up of the orders were all the work done on Saturday?” [several words illegible]

Schiff said that the record of $2 borrowed from Frank by Arthur White Saturday afternoon was made in Frank’s own writing and promised the solicitor to produce that entry in court.

The solicitor brought out from the witness that an average of orders is placed, as a rule, on the financial sheet and last time appeared on the sheet for the week ending just before the murder.

NO BALANCE NECESSARY.

Schiff declared that it was not necessary to balance the sheet.

Solicitor Dorsey forced the witness to admit that he had made a mistake in saying that certain orders must have been entered by Frank on Saturday. The witness admitted that they could have been entered before Saturday.

He had never know of Frank leaving on Saturdays before the financial sheet was finished, said the witness. He said that Frank kept close to his work. After this statement the solicitor asked, “You did hear him say, Friday, that he would try to go to the ball game Saturday afternoon?”
Judge Roan would not permit the witness to draw a conclusion as to whether Frank had finished his work in the morning in order that he might go to the ball game.

“Didn’t you say at the coroner’s inquest that it would take from one and a half to two hours if the data was ready to make out the financial sheet?” demanded the solicitor.

“No, I said two and a half to three hours,” said the witness.

“Didn’t you swear before the coroner’s inquest that it would take two and a half hours to get up the data and the financial sheet?”

“I don’t remember.”

“Wasn’t this question asked you: ‘It would take two and a half hours to get up the data and the financial sheet?’ And didn’t you reply, ‘Yes, in the condition that he had it’?”

“If I made that answer, I misunderstood the question.”

LOSE THEIR TEMPER.

When the questioning of Schiff began, the solicitor addressed his queries to the witness in a natural tone and the witness answered in like manner. By now, however, the solicitor was raking the witness roughly with his questions, and Schiff was answering loudly and angrily.

“If you swore at the coroner’s inquest that it took Frank two and a half hours to get up the data and the financial sheet both and now you say it took a longer time tell the jury why you changed your statement.”

“I may have misunderstood the question there. I say now it took him about three hours.”

“Well, if he wasn’t interrupted it would have been possible for him to complete it all, except about thirty minutes work, by 12 o’clock, wouldn’t it?”

“Yes, about that.”

“Now, if he wanted to go to a ball game or to chat with a woman, couldn’t he have speeded up and finished it in two and a half hours?”
Attorney Arnold objected to the question. Judge Roan sustained the objection. Solicitor Dorsey amended the question and the witness answered, “Not and make it look as good as it does.”

“Your opinion is that it took him between two and a half and three hours you say?”
“It is.”

IT ALL DEPENDS.

“Every time you saw him make out this sheet he was working on it leisurely and not under pressure, wasn’t he?”
“He was doing it like he always did.”

“Is Frank faster than you?”

“Yes.”
“How much?”
“I don’t know.”
“Didn’t the coroner ask you the difference in the time it would take to make this sheet, as between you and Frank, and didn’t you say he could finish it one-half hour quicker than you?”
“I don’t think so.”

“When you were estimating the length of time it would take, were you talking about yourself or Frank?”

“Frank.”

“How long would it take to balance the $39 on the small cash account?”

“I said one and a half hours, before the coroner’s jury. But the length of time all depends on whether the account balanced or not.”

“What do you say about it now?”

“I say just exactly that it all depends on whether it balances or not.”
“How is it you are able to remember so distinctly where you were last Thanksgiving day?”
“The first thing I remembered, I was going to a football game at Athens, but couldn’t go. I remembered distinctly telling Conley and the boy to come back to the factory. And I remembered helping Frank take his bundles to the car to go to the B’nai B’rith fair.”

“What time did you leave the factory together on Thanksgiving?”

“About noon.”

“Where did you go?”
“We walked over to the street car line, and Frank got on his car before mine came.”

“Did you go back to the factory that afternoon?”
“No.”

SOMEBODY TOLD HIM.

“How do you know where Frank was that afternoon, then?”
“A party told me.”
“Oh, then, when you are telling the jury that Frank was at the fair that afternoon, you are only going on what somebody else told you?”

“Yes.”

“Do you mean to tell the jury that you were at the pencil factory every Saturday afternoon?”
“I most certainly do. I have a record of never missing a day from my work, except for vacations, for five years.”

“Aren’t you a baseball fan?”
“I like to see a good game sometimes.”

“Well, didn’t you go often to the baseball games with Lemmie Quinn?”
“I never was out with Quinn in my life.”

“You say there are about 150 girls employed at the factory?”
“Yes.”

“And you say that many were paid off Friday afternoon?”
“Yes.”

“You say that out of all that number you remember Helen Ferguson being paid off?”
“I do.”

“What makes you remember her?”
“I probably could tell you the names of 100 more that were paid off?”

“All right, then, name about twenty-five.”

HE NAMED FIFTEEN.

The witness named about fifteen.

“Name some who were paid off on the Saturday before.”

“I don’t know as I can.”

“Why can’t you?”
“Because after this murder I searched my memory to recall everything that happened.”

“You have no doubt about Helen Ferguson being there?”
“None whatever.”

“You say Holloway was there and Frank was there?”
“They were.”

“How are your envelopes numbered?”
“From 1 to 200.”

“Where are they numbered?”
“Different office boys number them differently though they always put the number near the top sometimes on one side and sometimes on the other.”

“Before April 26 how long since you had seen that opening in the Clark Woodenware company?”
“I knew it was there before they left.”

“There was no occasion for anybody to go in there, was there?”
“Yes, we stored shellac in there to keep it cool, near the door by the elevator.”

“Are you sure there was a door there?”

“Yes.”

“But after this murder there were boxes piled all around that door, weren’t there?”
“Not that I know of.”

“If a body had been dumped in there, the fireman would have passed back and forth constantly by the place where it would have landed, wouldn’t he?”
“Yes, I should say he would.”

“Was there any sign of any one having walked near the chute? Did you call the detectives’ attention to anything of this kind?”

“I wasn’t with the detectives.”

ASKED ABOUT BLOOD.

“You noticed that blood on the floor, didn’t you?”
“Yes.”

“Did it look like a rat’s blood or blood from a finger cut, or what sort of blood did it look like?”

“I don’t know. It just looked red, like blood.”

“This white stuff smeared over it, what did it look like?”
“It looked like hascoline compound.”

“It looked like it had been swept over the blood, didn’t it?”
“Yes.” The answer was given reluctantly.

“What about the open door in what we will call the Conley area—when did you discover that?”
“I saw it on Monday or Tuesday after the murder.”

“And there were boxes piled all around there?”
“Yes.”
“And you know that that door had been nailed up?”
“Yes.”
Mr. Dorsey called the dates of a number of Saturday afternoons, on each of which Schiff claimed that he was at the factory.

“You tell the jury that you know you were at the factory on those dates because you haven’t lost any time, don’t you?”
“I know I was there.”

“You know that the factory closes down on Saturdays at 12 or 12:20, don’t you?”
“Yes.”

“Then you wouldn’t be losing any time if you were not there on Saturday afternoons, would you?”
“I’d consider that I would be.”

“Nobody has ever told you to come back Saturday afternoon?”
“They don’t have to tell me what to do,” answered the witness angrily.

“Where were you on October 15?”
“I don’t even know the day of the week.”

“Who sets the time clock at the factory?”
“Holloway or I.”

DOES CLOCK RUN FAST?

“Is the clock exactly right?”
“Every time I check it, it is.”
“Don’t you know as a matter of fact that it is run five minutes fast all the time?”
“No, I don’t.”

“Do you keep liars and unreliable people in the factory?”

“We have some there,” answered the witness.

“Then you mean to say it’s a custom to keep there people that you can’t depend on?”
Mr. Arnold objected.

“I just want to know how they run things there,” said the solicitor.

“We haven’t time to go into that,” said Judge Roan.

“When did you wake up to the fact that Conley was unreliable?”
“The first time I ever saw him, I guess. Besides, I got lots of reports about him from the foreladies.”

“Who are some of them?”

“Miss Carson and about twenty-five others.”
“Why did you keep him?”
“Because he knew the work.”
“Didn’t you try to fire him, and didn’t Frank keep you from it?”
“No.”
“Did you have authority to discharge him?”
“Yes, I did.”

“You told the jury that you knew Conley was unreliable the first time you ever saw him two years ago. And yet you’ve had the authority all the time to fire him?”
“I said around the first time,” answered the witness.

Solicitor Dorsey disputed this. “Yes, that’s what he said,” said Mr. Arnold. “Well, let’s have the record on it,” said the solicitor. Mr. Arnold spoke again. “It’s immaterial,” said he. “Let’s don’t take up time with that.”

“I thought we wouldn’t want to go into it,” said Mr. Dorsey.

Judge Roan called for the record which showed that the witness had qualified his answer by saying, “I guess.”

“He hasn’t been there all the time,” continued Schiff. “He’s been in the chain gang two or three times.”

“So he’s been in the chaingang three times, has he? You know that?”

“I know once I saw him working in front of the factory. And two other times women came to get money to get him out.”

“So you say he was in the chaingang, do you?”
“Well, I’m not up on it. I knew that he’s been arrested.

MR. ARNOLD OBJECTS.

Mr. Arnold objected to the solicitor’s method of examination of the witness. “Your honor, he doesn’t cross-examine the witness. He just quarrels with him.”

Mr. Arnold continued that it was natural that the witness should not know the difference between the stockade and the chaingang.

Solicitor Dorsey began to examine the witness about the old series of yellow order blanks, like the one on which one of the notes was written. Schiff said that they were to be found on the fourth floor in the packing room and outside the office.

“Now these three places are the only places in which they are to be found?”
“I think so.”
“Then they are all on the office floor or above it?”

“Unless they have been swept up in the trash. I’ve seen them in the basement,” said the witness.

“How long since you’ve seen one of these books in the basement?”

“I have seen them there in the last three months.”

“After the murder?”
“Before and after.”

“What were you in the basement for, when you saw them?”
“My work carries me there?”
“What do you have to do down there?”
“Well, I have to look over the packing boxes, for one thing. Then I have to see that the sawdust is carried out of the bin to the livery stable next door.”

WHERE TABLETS ARE KEPT.

“These other tablets,” asked the solicitor, holding up the white ruled sheets. “Where are they kept?”
“All over the factory, in all the departments.”

“Who gives them out?”

“I do sometimes.”

“Name a person you’ve ever given them to.”

“Well, I gave one to Joe Williams, a negro that works there, once.”

“Who else?”
“I gave one to Jim Conley once. He said he wanted to write a letter home, and I gave him a stamp, too.”

“Didn’t you Jim Conley’s home was right here?”

“No, sir, I didn’t.”

“You knew Conley could write, then, did you?”

“I did.”

“You say you would give these tablets to them on the office floor?”
“Yes.”

“These negroes wouldn’t carry them to the basement, then, would they?”
“They would go down there.”

The witness testified in answer to questions that it was the custom of the negroes to eat in the basement frequently right opposite a gas jet near the boiler. He said that on one of these occasions he had seen Jim Conley writing on one of these tablets.

“You say Conley attracted your attention on Tuesday by his actions. Did you tell Frank about it? He was interested in getting the Pinkertons on the case right away.”
“No, I intended to take it up to Mr. Darley.”

TELLS OF STAIRWAY.

Solicitor Dorsey directed the witness’ attention to the stairway leading from the office floor to the upper floors, and asked him if anyone wanting to look from the office floor to the floor above wouldn’t have to walk up the stairway a few steps. The witness answered affirmatively, adding in answer to another question that anyone wanting to look from the upper floor to the office floor would have to walk down the same distance.

“You said Conley said on Tuesday that he would give a million dollars to be a white man, did you?”
“I did.”

“Did Conley change his appearance after Frank was arrested?”
“I didn’t see him.”

“Do you know whether White and Denham were working on the fourth floor on April 26?”
“Yes.”

“How do you know?”
“Well, people told me.”

“It’s hearsay evidence, on your part?”
“Yes.”

“Were you at the factory when detectives were making experiments as to whether or not the elevator, when it was operated, could be heard on the fourth floor?”
“I was there with some of them.”

“Were you there when Sig Montag ran the elevator?”
“He didn’t run it.”
“Well, you were there, weren’t you when it was run under his direction?”
“He was just standing there.”

“Who was running it when Detective Starnes and Mr. Hooper went down into the basement one time?”
“I was. I guess.”

“Were you there when Jim Conley went through the factory with the detectives?”
“Yes.”

ARNOLD TAKES WITNESS.

Directing Schiff’s attention to the diagram of the factory, the solicitor asked him to point out the spot where Conley said he dropped the body when he was carrying it. Attorney Arnold objected, unless the solicitor intended to impeach Conley’s testimony. The solicitor declared that he did not want to impeach Conley, and withdrew the question. Solicitor Dorsey announced that he finished the cross-examination there, and Attorney Arnold took the witness on the redirect examination. Before Attorney Arnold began his questioning Judge Roan admonished him to be as quick as possible in examining the witness, and Attorney Arnold replied that he intended to proceed with all possible speed.

“What time had this financial sheet usually been made, Mr. Schiff?” asked Mr. Arnold.

Solicitor Dorsey objected. “He’s answered that,” said the solicitor. Judge Roan said: “Mr. Dorsey, Mr. Arnold wants to know whether he did it in the forenoon or the afternoon.” Solicitor Dorsey replied: “He’s answered that too.”

“When you said it would take two and a half to three hours to make out the data and the financial sheet, and an hour and a half to do the other usual figuring on Saturday, did you mean with or without interruption?”
“I meant without interruption.”

SOLICITOR OBJECTS.

Solicitor Dorsey objected. Attorney Arnold said that his object was to show that Saturday, although a half holiday at the factory, was the principal day of work for the office force. Judge Roan allowed the question. The witness replied that there were quite a few interruptions usually on Saturday afternoons, from traveling salesmen, members of the Montag family, employees calling to get their envelopes and others.

“When was the first time Frank knew that you didn’t get the data ready Friday afternoon?”
“I imagine it was Saturday morning when he phoned to my house.”
Solicitor Dorsey objected to question and answer, and was sustained.

“Mr. Dorsey asked you if this finance sheet, made up on April 26, showed a comparison of work and production of other weeks. Do you find such a comparison on other finance sheets?”
The witness examined several finance sheets and said he did not find that comparison.

“Then this finance sheet doesn’t differ from those for several months back?”
“It does not.”

“State whether these orders are not sometimes acknowledged before the requisitions are made out?”
“They are sometimes.”

“In all the years you’ve been at the pencil factory, did you ever know the finance sheet to be made out at any other time except Saturday afternoon?”
Solicitor Dorsey objected and the form of the question was changed slightly.

The witness replied that Saturday afternoon was the only time he had ever known it to be made out.

NO COMPLAINTS ABOUT CLOCK.

“Have you ever heard any complaints from the employes about the time clock being incorrect?”
“I never did.”

“Mr. Dorsey’s picture shows nothing in the Clark Woodenware department, does it?”
The witness examined the state’s diagram and claimed to find several discrepancies.

“Did Frank ever bring his wife to the factory on Saturday afternoon to assist him in shorthand work?”
“He did, several times.”

“That white stuff didn’t hid the red spots, did it?”

Solicitor Dorsey objected, and the form of the question was changed. The witness replied that he couldn’t tell whether the white stuff or the blood spots was on top.

“This white stuff was scattered all around, wasn’t it?”
“Yes.”

“They never took much trouble to clean it up, did they?”
“No, they usually just swept over it.”

“You were asked by Mr. Dorsey why you didn’t fire Jim Conley. State whether or not it is an easy matter to teach new employes.”

“it is not an easy matter.”

“Then sometimes you kept employes who might not be strictly honest, rather than go to the trouble of teaching new employes how to do their work?”

“That’s correct. Yes, sir.”

“You were asked if you knew whether Conley could write. Did you know that he was denying he could write?”
“I did not until the detectives came to the factory to investigate that subject.”

“They found out at the factory that he could write, didn’t they?”
“I think they did, yes sir.”

“That basement was a sort of a rendezvous for the negro employes, wasn’t it?”
“Yes.”

“Jim Conley was familiar with the basement, wasn’t he?”
“I should say he was.”

WHERE SACKS WERE KEPT.

“Do you know where the empty cotton sacks were kept?”
“Yes.”

“Was it inside or outside of the metal room?”
“It was outside.”

“Do you know if there were any empty sacks there on Saturday?”
“I know we had gotten a new supply of cotton on Friday, and usually when we got a new supply we took out the empty sacks.”

Solicitor Dorsey took the witness for recross-examination.

“You had no objection to coming to my office, did you?”
“No, I offered to come.”

“And your employers had hired detectives, and they wanted the factory employes to do everything they could to find the murderer, didn’t they?”

CLASH BETWEEN COUNSEL.

Mr. Arnold objected to the question as irrelevant. “Well, you asked him about subpoenas, didn’t you?” said Mr. Dorsey. “I simply wanted to show a species of legal duress,” returned Mr. Arnold. “You didn’t show it,” remarked Mr. Dorsey. “I didn’t by this witness, for he said he was not subpoenaed,” retorted Mr. Arnold, “but I have a number of others. I would have just as much right to subpoena his honor to come to my office, as you would have to subpoena these factory employes to yours.”

Mr. Dorsey continued. The witness said he did not remember Frank ever having gone to the ball game on Saturday afternoons. The witness argued with the solicitor over the distance between the pencil factory and Montag’s, but the argument was without material result.

“What time Monday did you observe Jim Conley’s strange bearing?” asked Mr. Dorsey.

“7:30 or 8 o’clock.”

“What time did you go with Detective Starnes to arrest Gantt? After you had observed this suspicious man?”
The witness said at first he didn’t remember, but said later it was after the plant had closed down.

“What time did you go with Detective Starnes to arrest Gantt? After you had observed this suspicious man?”
The witness said at first he didn’t remember, but said later it was after the plant had closed down.

“What time was it you observed Conley’s strange bearing?”
“I don’t remember.”

“You say that Frank never went to a baseball game or a matinee on Saturday afternoons?”

“Yes, because I was at the factory with him.”

“This diagram that I have here doesn’t show that pictures hanging on the wall in Frank’s office, does it?”
“No.”

“Describe those pictures.”

“I think of only one, a calendar,” said the witness.

“You don’t know, do you, whether or not the detectives had found out Conley could write before they went to the factory asking about it?”
The witness said he had no way of knowing.

Another argument followed over the details of the metal room, the witness maintaining that the closing or the opening of the shutters of the windows on the north side of the factory made no very material difference on the light that would be thrown on the blood spots. The witness aid that hascoline is a powder when dry, and a sort of paste when wet. Mr. Arnold questioned the witness again.

“Can you shut off the light at the back of the pencil factory?”
“No, sir.”

“Is there any way to keep the metal room dark between 12 and 1 o’clock?”
“There is not.”

“Did you ever see Frank talk to Mary Phagan?”
“I did not.”

Solicitor Dorsey asked a question.

“Mr. Schiff, the windows on the office floor look out onto the roof of the adjoining building on the north, do they not? And it is open at the back of the building, isn’t it?”
“Yes.”

PROF. BACHMAN CALLED.

Prof. George Bachman was called as the witness.

The witness testified that he is professor of physiology in the Atlanta College of Physicians and Surgeons. Previously he occupied a similar chair in the Jefferson Medical college, Philadelphia. He talked with a French accent.

“What nationality are you, professor?”

“An American citizen.” In answer to another question he said he was born in France and studied physiology there.

“Do you make experiments? Are you one of these bug doctors?” asked Attorney Arnold with a smile.

“I make experiments, but I am not a bacteriologist,” said the witness.

“Do you understand digestion, and the functions of the stomach and the other digestive organs?”
“I teach that subject.”

After a few other preliminary questions to qualify the witness, Attorney Arnold asked, “How long does it take cabbage to digest, doctor?”

“It takes about four and a half hours before it leaves the stomach.”

In answer to another question, the witness said that the major work of digesting cabbage is done in the small intestine instead of the stomach, although its digestion begins in the mouth. He said that bread or biscuit would hardly pass out of the stomach in less than three hours.

WOULD BE A GUESS.

“What time would you put down, professor, to pass out cabbage which had been cooked an hour, mixed with biscuit?”
“It depends on conditions,” replied the witness.

“Why can’t you formulate a rule on the length of time it will take cabbage and bread to pass out of the stomach?”

“There are too many factors to consider. The digestion might be arrested or retarded in many ways.”

The witness testified in answer to a number of other questions by Attorney Arnold that poorly masticated cabbage might have tendency to retain a large share of other food in the stomach, even if the other food was digested. Attorney Arnold then asked: “It would be a wild guess, wouldn’t it, professor, to state absolutely the length of time that food has been in the stomach?”
“It would be a guess; yes.”

“Isn’t it a fact that only one and one-half per cent of cabbage is acted on in the stomach?”

“About that, yes, sir. It is acted on partly in the mouth.”

“What acts on it there?”

“The saliva.”

The sample of cabbage taken from the stomach of Mary Phagan by Dr. H. F. Harris was brought into court.

“Does that look like a well masticated piece of cabbage?”
“It looks like it was not masticated at all.”

“Would a piece of cabbage in that condition act on the pylorus to prevent food passing out of the stomach?”
“It certainly would.”

“As to degrees of acidity in the stomach, the acidity may rise quickly and decline slowly, may it not?”
“Yes, sir.”

“When the acidity reaches a certain height, then it begins to descend, does it not?”
“Yes, sir.”

“Then if you find thirty-two degrees of acidity in a dead body, how can you tell whether the acidity was on the ascending scale?”
“There would be no way of telling, if the body were dead, although you could tell by tests of the stomach of a living person.”

“What acts on food in the small intestines?”

“The pancreatic juices.”

“What effect would embalming fluid have on them?”
“It would destroy the ferments.”

EMBALMING ADDS TO DIFFICULTIES.

“Then the fact that a body has been embalmed adds to the difficulty of telling how long food has been in the stomach?”
“Yes, sir.”

“You investigate the stomach of a person who has been dead, embalmed and interred nine or ten days. You find that bread and cabbage in the condition of this sample. You find the acidity of the stomach to be thirty-two degrees. You find practically no pepsin. You find practically nothing in the lower intestine. Could you, or any chemist or physician, hazard a guess as to how long the food had been in the stomach?”
“Under those conditions it would be impossible to tell.”

“Would you predicate any conclusion on the fact that there was no food in the lower intestines?”
“I would not.”

WITNESS CROSS-QUESTIONED.

Solicitor Dorsey cross-examined the witness. The witness said he was born in Mulhausen, and is of pure French extraction; that he has been in the United States since 1903 and connected with the Atlanta college for four years. He said that his specialty is physiological chemistry, and that he is an expert chemist so far as chemistry concerns the body.

The solicitor read from a paper, spelling a large number of medical terms.

“After an Ewald test breakfast has been eaten, how long would it be before you could get a positive starch test?”
“You can get a starch test all of the time that digestion is going on.”
“Do you mean to tell me,” asked the solicitor, “that all medical men do not agree that you get that test at from 35 to 40 minutes?”

The witness said he did mean that, and cited several authorities.

“If you found starch in a stomach, and no aultose or dextrose, how long would you say that the food had been in the stomach?”
“Not very long,” said the witness.

“Come down,” shouted the solicitor, triumphantly. The witness continued, however, by saying that it depends on the quantity of the food.

Solicitor Dorsey started his questions again, but was interrupted by Mr. Rosser, who stated to the court that he failed to see the connection between an Ewald test breakfast and this case. He declared that it was understanding that this case was dealing with fried cabbage and biscuit. Judge Roan said that Mr. Dorsey had the right to test the witness’ knowledge.

“You say you never knew anybody to make any experiments with cabbage?” continued the solicitor.

The witness replied in the affirmative.

“And you never made any yourself?”

“No.”
Holding up the samples of cabbage which Dr. Harris had testified were taken from normal stomachs after 40 to 60 minutes, the solicitor asked the witness to assume that they had been taken from normal stomachs after that interval; and holding up the sample taken from Mary Phagan’s stomach, asked the witness to state how long by compar[i]son the latter had been in the stomach.

“It might have been in seven or eight hours,” said the witness.

“Why do you say that?”
“Well, these large pieces of cabbage might retard greatly the passage of food from the stomach.”

“You would have some inflammation to show it if this had been the case, wouldn’t you?”
“No.”

“How would you account for it not being digested more than it is, if it had been lying in the stomach all that time?”
“I doubt very much if those large pieces would digest at all.”
“You are giving us your opinion, then, that these pieces wouldn’t digest at all, are you, doctor?”
“It would take a very long time.”

CAN’T MAKE ASSUMPTION.

“Assuming that these two pieces of cabbage were cooked and chewed the same way, how long would you say that the cabbage taken from Mary Phagan’s stomach had been eaten before death?”
“I can’t assume that.”

“Why can’t you?”
Attorney Arnold interrupted: “Maybe he doesn’t believe that these tests were made accurately. Mr. Dorsey can’t make him assume it if he doesn’t want to.”

“Suppose you examine the stomach, that you find digestion progressing favorably, the hydrochloric acid has begun to combine with the food, that the state of the starch corresponds to the cabbage—couldn’t you venture an option as to how long the cabbage had been in the stomach?”
“No, I could not.”
The witness went into a detailed explanation of why he thought he could not, the main idea being that it would be impossible to determine whether the degree of acidity at the time of the test was on the ascending or the descending scale. He said that with an Ewald test breakfast, 32 degrees of acidity would probably be found thirty minutes after the meal was eaten, on the ascending scale, and on a descending scale probably would be found an hour and a half after the meal was eaten.

“What is the difference between a meal of bread and water and a meal of fried cabbage and wheat biscuit?”
The witness explained in detail the chemical difference.

DR. HARRIS STANDS ALONE.

Attorney Arnold asked the witness some more questions when Solicitor Dorsey had finished.

“Do you know of any doctor except Dr. H. F. Harris, who would venture such an opinion as he has given in this case?”
“I do not.”
Court adjourned at 12:45 until 2 o’clock.

Dr. Willis Westmoreland, it was said, would be the next witness for the defense. Dr. T. H. Hancock and Dr. J. C. Olmstead were to follow him at the afternoon session, it was said.

* * *

Atlanta Journal, August 11th 1913, “Many Experts Called by Defense to Answer Dr. H. F. Harris,” Leo Frank case newspaper article series (Original PDF)

Another in our series of new transcriptions of contemporary articles on the Leo Frank case.

Atlanta Constitution
August 10^th, 1913

HIS STATEMENTS HELP DEFENSE

Herbert G. Schiff, assistant to Leo M. Frank at the National Pencil factory, followed J. H. Minar on the stand Saturday. His testimony was used by the defense in an ef[f]ort to refute the stories of Jim Conley and C. B. Dalton to the effect that Frank frequently had women in the office on Saturdays and holidays and he also went into great detail and testified to the complexity of the financial sheet and the large amount of work necessary to complete it.

He was being cross-examined by the state when court adjourned at 12:30 o’clock until 9 o’clock Monday morning. At the time of adjournment the solicitor was trying to show by cross-questions that the witness had exaggerated the amount of work and the time required upon the financial sheet which it is claimed Frank made out on the Saturday before the murder was discovered.

“Do you have anything to do with keeping the books and getting up the financial statement?” Mr. Arnold began.

“Yes, I do.”

“Who went to work for the factory first, you or Mr. Frank?”
“Mr. Frank.”

“What sort of work did you first do?”
“I assisted in the office work of the factory and early in January was promoted and went on the road, then the office force got short and I offered my services in the office again and returned to help Mr. Frank.”

The witness then stated that he and Frank handled the petty cash for drayage and other incidentals.

“Where do you get the cash for your payroll?”
“From the bank on a check of the National Pencil company, signed by Sig Montag, general manager.”

“Do you draw more or less than the amount of the payroll?”
“We draw a check to meet the payroll to the penny.”

“Who usually got the money from the bank?”
“I did.”
“How much cash is usually kept on hand in the office?”
“About $25 to $50 for incidentals.”

“What are some of the things for which you spend it?”
“Drayage, kerosene for the night watchman, soup, candles and other things like that needed around the factory.”

“When do you and Frank get paid?”
“On the last of the month.”

Frank Paid $150 a Month.

“What is Frank’s salary?”
“It is $150 per month.”

“What do you get?”
“My salary is $80 a month.”

“Where does the general manager, Sig Montag, stay?”
“His office is at Montag brothers’ place, four blocks away.”

“Where is the paying of bills and the banking of the money for the National Pencil factory done?”
“At Montag brothers.”

“Did you or Frank ever draw any checks on the name of the pencil company to pay bills or for anything else?”
“Neither of us had any authority to sign a check for the National Pencil company.”
“What does this financial sheet show?”
“It tries to show the profit and loss for the week.”

The witness was then shown the financial sheet and with him Mr. Arnold went into great detail about the getting up of the sheet and the tedious operations it entailed.

“How long had it been customary to get this sheet up on Saturdays?”
“Ever since the factory had been in existence.”

“What part of the work do you do on the sheet?”
“I get up reports from the different foreman on the amount of materials used, and also to supply the total of the payroll.”

“Since June, 1912, how many days have you missed from work?”
“Not a day.”

“How about your vacation?”
“Oh, yes, I took a vacation last year. I had the last week in July and the first week in August.”
“What were your hours on Saturdays? Were you there in the afternoons?”
“My custom was to leave at 11:15 and got back at from 2:15 to 3 o’clock on Saturday afternoons.”
“How about Frank?”
“He would leave at 1 and get back at 3.”

Never Locked Doors.

“Did you or Frank ever lock the doors when you were at work in the office?”
“No, we never did.”
“Did the stenographers ever work on Saturday?”
“Very seldom.”

“Did salesmen come in on that day?”
“Yes, frequently.”
“Who all worked there on Saturday afternoons?”
“Men who oiled and repaired the machinery and others who swept up.”
“Who was the nightwatchman before Newt Lee?”

“He was a white man.”
“Did you ever have a negro nightwatchman before?”
“No, we never did.”
“Do you recall ever having seen Jim Conley around the factory on Saturdays?”
“No, I’ve never seen him there then.”

Denies Presence of Women.

“Did you and Frank ever have women up there on Saturday?”
“No.”
“Between June, 1912, and April, 1913, did you ever miss a Saturday at the factory, except while you were on your vacation?”
“Not one.”

“You went on the road early in January, didn’t you?”
“Yes, I left the first Saturday in January.”
“What time were you there that afternoon?”
“I was there from noon until about 5 o’clock, when Mr. Frank went with me to the train.”
“Did you see Conley there that day?”

“No.”
“Did you ever see C. B. Dalton around the factory?”
“No.”
“Do you know a woman named Daisy Hopkins?”

“Yes, she used to work at the factory.”
“Do you remember when she left?”
“No, I do not, I only remember that there was such a woman there at one time.”

Mr. Arnold then produced the pencil company’s payroll book and asked the witness to say when the woman started and when she left.

“This book starts on May, 1912, and according to it she was working there then, but her name is not on the payroll after the week of June 6, 1912.”

Woman Never Returned After Hours.

“Did you ever see her come back to the factory alone or with anyone else, after work hours?”
“No.”

“On last Thanksgiving day do you recall what happened and who was in the factory during the afternoon?”
“Yes, Mr. Frank and I and Conley and an office boy named Frank Paine were there. I had Conley and the boy go to the fourth floor to clean it up that morning and Conley left at about 10:30.”

“Did you and Frank leave together?”
“Yes.”
“At what time?”
“At 12:30.”

“Where did you go?”
“We went to Whitehall and Alabama to get our cars?”

“Who got a car first?”
“Mr. Frank caught a Washington street car and left me and my car came a few moments later.”
“Who paid off the help on Friday, April 25?”
“I did.”

“Do you remember if Helen Ferguson got her pay that day?”
“I do.”

“Who paid her?”
“I did.”
“Do you remember her or any other girl asking for Mary Phagan’s pay that day?”
“No.”

“To whom would such a person have gone?”
“To me.”

“Were you at the pay window where you usually stand?”
“I was.”

Dorsey’s Remark Ruled Out.

“Don’t lead him; he’s willing enough,” interrupted Mr. Dorsey.

“Your honor, in the first place I deny that I’m leading him, and in the second place, I want that remark of Mr. Dorsey’s struck off the record.”

The judge ordered the jury to forget that Mr. Dorsey had ever said. “He’s willing enough,” and the examination went on.

“Did you see anybody go to Frank for pay?”
“No.”
“Was there any reason why anyone should have?”
“No.”
“Did you expect the employees to come for their pay Saturday?”

“No.”
“Could they get their pay, though, if they came?”
“Yes, if the paymaster happened to be there.”

“Did you finish up your work on the financial sheet Friday, April 25?”
“No.”

“Did you go to the office on Saturday?”
“No.”
“Why?”
“I overslept.”

“Did your absence and failure to complete your work make it harder or easier for Frank to complete the financial sheet?”
“It made it harder.”

Then the witness and Mr. Arnold went over the details of the pasteboard model of the National Pencil factory. The witness next identified the financial sheet, claimed by the defense to have been worked up Saturday by Frank. Schiff identified the handwriting as that of Frank’s.

“Is that sheet from the data from which it was taken?”
“Yes, it is.”
Then spreading the sheet before the jury the witness and attorney went through, all the details required to get it up and Schiff pointed out the intricate calculations required and the amount of tedious detail necessary. He stated it usually took about three hours to finish it.

He next stated that he believed two and a half hours would be the very shortest time in which the sheet could possibly be gotten up.

Then Mr. Arnold took up each financial sheet made from June, 1912, to the one above mentioned and Schiff identified each one as being in Frank’s handwriting. He answered the questions rapidly and showed a complete knowledge of the subject.

“Did you know a girl named Mary Phagan?” was next asked.

“I knew there was such a name on the pay rolls, but I would not have known her from any one of the other girls in the factory.”

No Scratches on Frank.

“Were there any scratches on Frank’s face or arms when you saw him Sunday?”
“No.”

“When things went wrong about the factory how did Frank act?”

“Mr. Frank was extremely nervous.”

“When trouble came up who untangled things?”
“Mr. Darley or I.”

“How did Frank show his nervousness?”
“By trembling.”

“Do you recall the day that a street car upon which Frank was riding ran over a little girl?”
“I do.”

“How did Frank act?”
“He was so nervous I had to give him ammonia; he wasn’t any good the rest of the day.”

“You know Jim Conley?”
“Yes, since he came to work there at the factory.”
“What sort of a negro is he?”
“There’s very little to him.”

Mr. Hooper objected and the question was changed.
“What sort of work does he do?”
“He ran the elevator and swept up.”

Conley’s Character Bad.

“What was his character?”
“It was bad.”

“Would you believe him on oath?”
“No, I would not.”
Mr. Arnold then showed Schiff the murder notes and the tablet found near the girl’s body.

“Where can you find articles such as these?” he said, pointing to the tablet and the note written on a piece of tablet paper.

“Anywhere in the basement.”

“Where would you expect to find paper such as this note is on?” the attorney then asked, pointing to the note written on a duplicate order blank of the National Pencil company.

“Almost anywhere in the building.”

“Were these blanks in use at the time of the murder?”
“No.”

“Where were these blanks kept?”
“In the outer office of the factory.”
“Did you hear Frank and a Mr. Ursenbach talking over the telephone on Friday, April 25?”
“Yes.”

“What did you hear?”
“I heard Mr. Frank say, ‘All right, Charlie, I’ll go with you.’”

“To what were they referring?”
“To going to the ball game that afternoon.”
“Can you see the clock from Frank’s office?”
“Only part of it.”
“When the safe door is closed, can you see the clock?”

“No, you can’t see it at all, then.”

“Could a girl the size of Monteen Stover see over the safe door?”

“No.”

“What happened on Tuesday between you and Conley?”

Tells of Conversation With Conley.

“I saw Conley in the factory and he seemed to be trying to conceal himself and I asked what he was doing there and he said he was afraid to go out and that he would give a million dollars if he were a white man, that he would go out if he were. I told him that being a white man didn’t help, that Mr. Frank had been arrested and that if he is innocent he had better go on and not be afraid.”

“Did you ever see women in Frank’s office?”
“No.”

“How is the office arranged? Can you see in it when the door is closed?”
“Yes, the door is made of clear glass on the upper half and any person can see right into the office?”
“Does the elevator make a noise when it runs?”
“Yes.”

“Is the switch box to the motor kept locked?”
“No, we used to do that but sometime before the murder we were ordered by the insurance people to leave it unlocked.”

“Did you ever excuse Conley’s not registering.”
“No, I have frequently got after him about it and even docked him for it.”

Frequently Saw Blood Spots.

“Did you ever see any blood spots up there?”
“Yes.”
“What were they?”
“Well, the employees frequently cut their fingers and when they did they came to the office where we kept a box of things to tie them up unless the cut was so bad we had to send for a doctor.”

“Did you see where Barrett found the blood spots?”
“Yes.”

“Was it or not on a line, I mean in the route people would have to take from the metal room to the office?”

“It was.”
“Did you see the hair found up there?”
“Yes.”

“Could you tell its color?”
“No, I could not.”

“Did you see the spot where Conley claims he found the girl’s dead body?”
“Yes.”
“Was there any blood there?”

“There was none.”
“Was the place wet, or had there ever been any water there?”
“The place was dry; there never had been any water there and to my knowledge it had not been washed and scrubbed in the four years I worked there.”

Squabble Over Question.

Mr. Dorsey took up the cross-examination.

“Did you see Mr. Gheesling, the undertaker, on the Sunday that the body was found?”
“Yes.”
Mr. Dorsey then asked the witness if he had not told Gheesling that Mary Phagan would have shortly been confined. He replied hotly that he had not said it.

Mr. Arnold rose at once and entered an objection, asking the court to rule out everything pertaining to that. He said that the physicians for the state had testified that such was not the case.

“Your honor,” said Mr. Dorsey, “I know as well as does Mr. Arnold that such was not the girl’s condition, but I want to show that this witness did say that about her and I want to show that he was inspired by Frank to say it.”

After further argument the matter was ruled out.

“Did you know that Mrs. J. A. White had told of seeing a negro around the factory that Saturday?” Mr. Dorsey then asked.

“Yes.”

“Was Sam Hewlett, a private detective, there in conference with you and Frank Monday.”
“He was not.”
“Do you mean to deny that Hewlett was there?” replied the attorney.

“He was there, but not as a detective; he was there as a night watchman.”
“Did you tell any city detective about what Mrs. White had said about seeing a negro?”
Before the witness could reply Mr. Arnold had this question ruled out, on the ground that Frank should not be bound in any way by what anyone else had told or concealed from city detectives.

Admits Frank Was Anxious.

“How many times on Monday did Frank telephone you and ask you to arrange to get the Pinkertons on the case?”

“Several times.”
“Wasn’t he very anxious?”
“Yes, he appeared anxious; he said he thought the factory owed it to its employees to try to find the murderer and that he wanted me to take the matter up with Mr. Montag and see if he would employ a detective agency and that he would suggest the Pinkertons.”

“Was Frank sick at home then?”
“He was at home, but not sick.”
“Were you at the factory?”
“Yes.”
“When it was full of detectives?”
“There were none there when he telephoned.”
“When did the city detectives come?”
“When they were telephoned about the finding of blood spots.”
“When did Frank first telephone about the Pinkertons?”
“About noon.”
“How often after that?”
“He telephoned at about 12:30 and again at 1.”

“Did Frank talk much about his nervousness and try to explain it?”
“I wouldn’t say that.”
“In your affidavit made to B. S. Smith, didn’t you say that Frank often referred to his nervousness and tried to explain it?”

“I said something about his being nervous.”

“Didn’t you declare on oath that he had told you about being jerked away from home and carried to see the body?”
“Yes.”

“What did he tell you about breakfast?”

“He said that having to leave without breakfast was one of the reasons why he was nervous.”

No Stenographer at Factory.

“The factory had been without a stenographer for quite a while about the time of the murder, hadn’t it?”
“Yes.”
“What was the condition of the work as regards the work of a stenographer?”
“It had accumulated to a certain extent.”
“How long does it take to do the billing?”
“From seven to eight minutes.”
“Didn’t you tell the coroner under oath that it did not take over half an hour?”
“Yes.”

Applause Causes Objection.

There was a murmur of applause as the solicitor made this point on the witness for the defense, and it had hardly died away when Attorney Arnold rose and protested.

“Your Honor,” he said, “if such a disgraceful occurrence takes place again I shall certainly move to have the courtroom cleared. I don’t know who’s responsible for this applause, but we are not taking the spectators into this trial.”

Judge Roan instructed the deputies to try to ascertain who might be applauding if it occurred any more, and stated that he would have them before him to answer for it.

Mr. Dorsey then went into a detailed series of questions, trying to show that the witness was exaggerating the time required for getting up the financial sheet, and also to show that Frank had not done all the work that Schiff claimed he had, and there were frequent objections from the defense, Mr. Arnold claiming that the solicitor was not allowing the witness to answer one question before he asked him another.

At this juncture Judge Roan noted that it was 12:30 and stated he wanted court adjourned until Monday. He asked the jury if they were being well cared for and instructed them to report any inattention or needs to him. All of the members of the jury nodded their heads when the judge asked if they were well cared for, and court adjourned.

* * *

Atlanta Constitution, August 10th 1913, “Schiff Put on Stand to Refute Conley and Dalton Testimony,” Leo Frank case newspaper article series (Original PDF)

Another in our series of new transcriptions of contemporary articles on the Leo Frank case.

Atlanta Constitution
August 10^th, 1913

Saturday by Far the Best Day for the Defense Since Start of the Frank Trial Two Weeks Ago.

SAYS WOMEN DID NOT VISIT FRANK’S OFFICE

Lawyers for State and Defense in Frequent Clashes During the Testimony of Frank’s Assistant at the Factory.

By far the best day the defense in the Frank trial has had came to a close Saturday afternoon at 12:30 o’clock when a recess was taken until 9 o’clock Monday morning, at which time Herert Schiff, assistant to Leo M. Frank, will again be on the stand to undergo a thorough cross-examination at the hands of Solicitor Dorsey.

Schiff’s direct testimony Saturday was of a convincing nature and the defense will largely bank on it to disprove the idea that Frank could have committed the murder and afterward done the intricate mathematical work he claims to have done during the afternoon of Memorial day. Just how Schiff’s testimony will stand up under the cross fire of Solicitor Dorsey is a question which Monday alone will answer. Thus far his testimony has been the most convincing of any that has been introduced by the defense. He is an extremely bright young man, ready with his answers and he possesses a good memory. When court adjourned Saturday Solicitor Dorsey had failed to shake him on any material testimony or point.

Never Seen Women There.

Schiff testified that it had been his practice for many months to work at the factory on Saturdays and that he had never seen any women visit Frank except his wife. If women had come there he would have seen them.

He stated that he did not know C. B. Dalton, the man who swore he had frequently visited the factory with Daisy Hopkins for immoral purposes. He knew Daisy Hopkins, however.

The financial sheet which Frank asserts he made out Saturday was brought into court and was identified by Schiff. He said the handwriting was normal. In great detail he explained the various items that entered into the making of the financial sheet, such as production, cost of production, kinds of material used, etc. Many mathematical calculations were necessary to make out the sheet, he said, and the work required the expenditure of several hours.

Schiff also gave important testimony as to the actions of Jim Conley on the Monday following the murder and said he (Conley) was very nervous and excited during the presence of the crowd and had remarked that he would give a million dollars if he had a white man’s skin.

He was questioned as to the chute in the rear of the building and asked if it would be possible to throw a person’s body down it. He replied that it would.

He was questioned as to Thanksgiving day—the day Conley swore he “watched for” Frank—and the witness said he remembered the day perfectly, that it was snowing. He said Conley had come to the factory that day according to instructions to pile up some boxes. He and Frank had left the office together and he had seen Frank take the Washington street car about 12 o’clock.

On cross-examination Schiff confessed that it might have taken Frank a shorter length of time to make certain entries than he had stated; that […]

SCHIFF CONTRADICTS DALTON AND CONLEY

[…] his first answer of half an hour was largely guess work.

To Discredit Epps Boy.

The little newsboy, George Epps, who testified that he had ridden to town on the same car with Mary Phagan on the day she was murdered, was placed on the stand by the defense. He denied he had stated to a reporter for The Georgian that the last time he had seen Mary Phagan was Thursday. He said he was in the house at the time the reporter was there, but had made no such statement. He explained his absence from the courtroom by saying he had grown tired of hanging around, but was not trying to dodge being a witness.

John Minar, a reporter for The Georgian, stated he had called at the Epps boy’s home shortly after the murder and that the boy had failed to tell him he had seen Mary Phagan since Thursday before the murder.

Crowd Grows Smaller.

Saturday completed the second week of the Frank trial and yet the end is nowhere in sight. It may continue for a week, ten days, or two weeks. No one can tell until the defense makes clear its position in regard to character witnesses. If these are introduced the trial will run well into two weeks longer. Judge Roan has instructed that he will place no limit on the time of the speakers and these will unquestionably consume three to four days.

Interest in the trial continues unabated, but the extremely hot weather of the past few days has served to thin out the crowd to some extent, although every seat in the courtroom is filled each day. Judge Roan’s order that no women be allowed to enter the room has been generally approved.

* * *

Atlanta Constitution, August 10th 1913, “Schiff Testimony Contradicts That Given by Dalton and Negro Conley,” Leo Frank case newspaper article series (Original PDF)

Another in our series of new transcriptions of contemporary articles on the Leo Frank case.

Atlanta Georgian
August 10^th, 1913

Co-Workers in the Factory Declare Stories of Factory Revelries Are Beyond Reason

ASSISTANT TELLS HOW ACCUSED MAN MADE OUT COMPLEX ACCOUNTS

Testimony of Newsboy Who Said He Accompanied Mary Phagan On Street Car On Day of the Killing Attacked by Defense’s Counsel.

With one set of lawyers fighting to send Leo Frank to the gallows and another struggling just as desperately not only to save him from this fate, but entirely to remove the stigma of the murder charge, the second week of the battle for the young factory superintendent’s life ended shortly after noon yesterday.

The defense was only fairly under way in its presentation of evidence. Another week, at least, will be consumed in the examination of witnesses, and it is regarded as not at all unlikely that the jury will receive the case for its verdict not before the latter part of the following week.

More than 100 witnesses will be called to the stand before the defense rests. Some of them will be questioned and cross-questioned at length. Others will be on the stand only a few minutes.

Conduct in Question.

Many who will be called are factory employees. They will be asked in regard to Frank’s conduct at the pencil factory. This line of interrogation already has been begun by the defense. E. F. Holloway, day watchman at the factory, and N. V. Darley, general manager, testified Friday that women, aside from those of Frank’s family, never visited him at the factory. Herbert G. Schiff, assistant to Frank, who was on the stand during practically all of the Saturday session, testified to the same thing.

Schiff was taken into an exhaustive description of the duties of Frank, which was dry and uninteresting to the casual spectator at the trial. His testimony, however, was regarded by the defense as extremely important. The financial sheet, in particular, on which Frank worked the afternoon of the murder, came up for extended consideration. Schiff told in elaborate detail the complexities of the sheet and the elements that entered into its make-up.

It was the purpose of the defense to show that it would have been entirely out of the realm of human probabilities that Frank, after committing an atrocious and brutal murder, could have sat down and, without a quiver of his pen or a shaking of his hand, put down column after column of figures and made scores of notations with never an error.

Schiff was asked first in regard to Frank’s customs and habits about the factory. From his testimony it was developed that Schiff generally was at dinner on Saturdays from 12:30 to 2 o’clock and that Frank ordinarily was away from the factory from 1 o’clock until 3. This made it practically impossible for Frank to have women visitors in his office during the half-holiday without Schiff’s knowledge. The witness denied that he ever knew of such occurrences.

Gay Parties Impossible.

He added, under the questioning of Reuben Arnold, that it was not at all uncommon for persons from Montag Bros. to call at the factory on Saturday afternoons, and that gay parties of this sort could not have taken place. Salesmen, too, he said, interrupted the work on Saturday after noons.

A spike was placed in C. B. Dalton’s testimony by Schiff’s statement that he was in the invariable habit of working with Frank at the office Saturday afternoons, but that he never saw Dalton before the trial began. Dalton had testified that he was an occasional visitor at Frank’s office on Saturdays, and that Frank always had two or three women with him in the afternoon, but that no man was working in the office with him. Schiff also said he never had seen Daisy Hopkins, who Dalton said was his companion, on these visits.

Schiff remembered that last Thanksgiving was cold and rainy and that there was snow on the ground. This evidence was brought out to show the improbability of Conley’s story which had a woman wearing summery white slippers and stockings visiting the factory to see Frank that day.

The witness recalled paying Miss Helen Ferguson the afternoon of Friday, April 25. He was positive that she did not ask for the envelope of Mary Phagan and that she would have asked no one else, as no one else had anything to do with the distribution of the pay envelopes. It is a custom at the factory, he said, to give one person’s pay to another only on a written order, unless the person making application is a relative.

Frank Easily Disturbed.

Asked in regard to the temperament of Frank, he replied that the superintendent was high strung and nervous and was easily disturbed by little accidents that happened about the factory.

Schiff was shown the financial sheet for the week ending on the Friday of the week the tragedy occurred. He identified it as the work done by Frank Saturday afternoon. He said that the writing was unmistakably that of a young superintendent. Attorney Arnold also had in the courtroom the financial sheet for every week during the year previous to the crime. Schiff identified them all as Frank’s work and said that the least complicated of them never took less than two and a half hours to compile. The average time, he thought, was about three hours.

All of the financial sheets will be submitted as evidence to show that the writing of Frank April 26 was not tremulous, irregular or in any way different from his writing in the 51 other financial sheets on file.

The witness explained the highly complex manner in which the financial sheet was made up and narrated that the costs and profits were estimated each week on several thousand gross of pencils of different grades and classifications, including the materials which entered into their composition.

The other witnesses of the day were George W. Epps, the newsboy who had sworn several days previously that he had ridden to town with Mary Phagan the day that she was killed, and J. M. Minar, a reporter on The Georgian.

A degree of suspicion already had been thrown upon the story of Epps by the testimony of the motorman and conductor of the car on which Mary rode that day. Both testified that they did not see the boy on the car. The motorman asserted that another girl rode with the Phagan girl after the car arrived in town.

Boy’s Credibility Questioned.

The reporter was called to strengthen further the doubt of the lad’s credibility. He related that he had visited the Epps home, No. 246 Fox street, Sunday night, April 27, having learned that the children of the family had been acquaintances of the little girl whose dead body had been found that morning.

He went there, he said, for the purpose of finding who had seen the murdered girl last, and at what time she had been seen. He talked at length both to the boy and his sister. In response to his question as to who had seen Mary Phagan last he said that Vera Epps, the sister, declared that she had played with Mary the Thursday before, and George only told of occasions when he had ridden to town with Mary when she was going to work in the morning, mentioning not at all that he had ridden with her at noon only the day before when she was on the journey that ended in her death.

The most exhaustive examination of any of the defense’s witnesses so far introduced came Saturday with Herbert Schiff on the stand. With an apparently remarkable memory Schiff was able to answer clearly and almost without hesitation a number of detailed questions both by the lawyers for the defense in direct examination, and by the State’s attorneys on cross-examination. Even bits of conversation were recalled, notably one between Leo Frank and a Mr. Ursenbach on the afternoon before the day of the killing.

“Do you recall hearing a conversation between Mr. Frank and Mr. Ursenbach Friday about going to ball game Saturday?” Reuben Arnold asked him.

“Yes,” said Schiff, “but not exactly what was said. I heard Mr. Frank say something about ‘I will go if I can, Charley.”

Seeming to refute Monteen Stover’s story that she looked into Frank’s office and found that he was not within, Schiff testified that it would have been impossible for the girl to see over the open safe door into all the office.

Failed to See Mesh Bag.

Schiff it was who looked into the office safe the Monday following the killing, according to his statement. He said he saw nothing of the silver mesh bag of Mary Phagan, which Jim Conley testified Frank hid in the safe after the removal of Mary Phagan’s body.

That Jim Conley was frightened the Tuesday following the murder, when the investigation was at its height, was another bit of Schiff’s testimony.

“I saw him near the shipping room,” related Schiff. “I asked him what he was doing there, and he said he was afraid to go out. He said he would give a million dollars to be a white man. I answered that that would not do any good, as they had taken Mr. Frank.”

Under Solicitor Dorsey’s cross-examination, Schiff said that Frank appeared eager to employ the Pinkerton detectives to work toward clearing the mystery, declaring that the young superintendent called him over the telephone two or three times Monday after the murder to talk over various matters, once to suggest the employment of detectives.

“He asked me to take up with Mr. Montag the employment of a private detective,” said Schiff, “and suggested the Pinkertons. He said he thought it was only fair to the employees.”

At one stage in the examination of Schiff, Judge Roan threatened to have cleared the courtroom. A number of spectators had burst into laughter at a sally between Attorney Arnold and Solicitor Dorsey.

Questions asked Schiff by the defense’s lawyers seemed to show that by him they would bolster their theory that Mary Phagan’s body was lowered to the factory basement by some means other than the elevator, which the State contends was the means used.

Trapdoor Not Locked.

Schiff testified that not only was there a hole in the rear of the factory leading to the basement, but also a trapdoor, which was not locked. He was asked about the door leading from the National Pencil Factory’s space into the room used by the Clark woodenware department from which access to the basement is easy. He said that he noticed the door had been apparently cracked open.

Schiff’s testimony was unshaken by cross-examination, and he proved an able witness for the defense, much more so than the other factory employee, E. F. Holloway, who became confused on the witness stand under the grilling cross-examination of Solicitor Dorsey.

The attack of the defense on Conley’s character was evident with Schiff on the stand. The witness was asked at length concerning the negro and replied that he was worthless, unreliable and untruthful.

It is likely that Schiff will be called again to the stand when the trial is resumed Monday.

* * *

Atlanta Georgian, August 10th 1913, “Frank Struggles to Prove His Conduct was Blameless,” Leo Frank case newspaper article series (Original PDF)

Another in our series of new transcriptions of contemporary articles on the Leo Frank case.

Atlanta Journal
August 9^th, 1913

WITNESS IN MOST OF DORSEY’S GRILLING WHEN COURT ADJOURNS UNTIL NINE O’CLOCK ON MONDAY

Assistant Factory Superintendent Refutes Testimony of C. B. Dalton and Jim Conley That Frank Frequently Had Women Callers In His Office on Saturday Afternoons and During Holidays—He Says He Never Saw Conley There Saturday Afternoons

DECLARES THAT WIFE OF THE ACCUSED FREQUENTLY CALLED ON HUSBAND AT HIS OFFICE ON SATURDAYS

Attorney Arnold Registers Another Objection Against Laughter of Spectators in the Court Room—Solicitor Draws From Schiff Change of Answers Made to Several Previous Statements of His While on the Witness Stand

The second week of the trial of Leo M. Frank, charged with the murder of Mary Phagan ended at 12:30 o’clock Saturday when court adjourned until 9 o’clock Monday morning. Herbert Schiff, assistant superintendent of the National Pencil factory was on the stand for the defense at the hour of adjournment and will resume under cross-examination by Solicitor Hugh M. Dorsey on Monday. During the cross-questioning of Schiff, he and the solicitor had many tilts regarding the system of the factory office and were frequently interrupted by objections from Attorney Arnold for the defense. The solicitor put Frank’s assistant through a grilling examination during the course of which he caused the witness to change several answers he had previously made to the jury.

That Jim Conley, the negro sweeper who accuses Frank, feared the crowd gathered in front of the pencil factory following the murder of Mary Phagan and that the negro declared that he would give a million dollars if he had a white skin, was the declaration of Schiff, earlier during his testimony. Schiff also declared that the financial sheet made out in Frank’s handwriting on April 26 was accurate and the handwriting of the accused superintendent was normal. Schiff works with Leo M. Frank in the office and assists in making up the weekly financial sheets.

He refuted the stories told by the negro Conley and C. B. Dalton that Frank frequently had women in the office on Saturday afternoons. Schiff declared that he had missed very few Saturday afternoons in the office since June, 1912, until January of this year and during that time no women except the accused’s wife visited the office during the Saturday afternoons.

George Minar, a newspaper reporter, was on the stand a short while prior to Schiff’s testimony and declared that when he interviewed George Epps, the newsboy that the “newsie” failed to tell him that he had seen Mary Phagan since the Thursday preceeding [sic] the tragedy.

NEWSBOY CALLED.

Leo M. Frank, the accused, breakfasted early with his wife as usual in one of the rooms adjoining the court, Saturday morning, while the hundreds waited outside in a long line to gain admittance to the court. Ten minutes before court was due to convene, the lawyers and the judge were there and everything was ready for the trial to resume at 9 o’clock.

George Epps, the newsboy whose testimony that he accompanied Mary Phagan to town when she came to her death at the National Pencil factory has been attacked by the defense, was called to the stand as the first witness. Several efforts Friday to locate him proved unavailing, it being said that he was about his usual business of selling papers on the streets. The defense subpenaed him. C. B. Dalton was called before Epps, but did not answer.

Barefooted and coatless, the tow-headed newsboy walked again to the witness stand.

“Do you remember the Sunday the body was found?” asked Mr. Arnold.

“Yes, sir.”

“Do you remember Mr. Minar, a newspaper man, coming out there that night and talking to you and your sister?”
“Yes.”

“Didn’t he ask you and your sister when was the last time you saw Mary Phagan, and didn’t your sister say Thursday?”

“I wasn’t there then. I was in the house, but I didn’t stay where he was talking.”

“Well, weren’t you there when he asked that question?”
“No, my father was there but I was not.”

“That’s all,” said Mr. Arnold.

Solicitor Dorsey took the witness. “Have you ever refused to come to this court when you were called?”

PLAYING BALL YESTERDAY.

“No, whenever you send for me I come right straight.”

“Why weren’t you here yesterday?”

“I got tired waiting, and you said you’d send for me if I was needed, and when they went out to the house for me I was out playing ball.”

“Did you call me last night?”
Mr. Arnold interrupted, saying that was not a proper question. Mr. Dorsey replied that Mr. Arnold had tried to have the jury under the impression that this boy had run away and had refused to come to court when summoned. The question was not allowed, however, by Judge Roan. Epps was released, and John Minar, a reporter on the Atlanta Georgian, was called to the stand.

“Were you a reporter for the Georgian in April, Mr. Minar?” asked Attorney Arnold.

“I was.”

“Do you recall the finding of the body of little Mary Phagan on April 27?”

“Yes.”

“During that day did you go to the Epps home in an endeavor to see little George Epps?”

“I did.”

“What time did you go?”

“About 8 o’clock.”
“Did you see this little boy and his sister?”
“I did.”

“Did you attempt to get out of them—“

Solicitor Dorsey interrupted, objecting to any testimony as to what the sister said, inasmuch as she had not been brought into the case. The judge allowed the question, however.

“Did you ask them as to the last time either one of them had seen Mary Phagan?”

“I asked them who had seen her last. The girl said she had seen her on the previous Thursday.”

“When did George Epps say he saw her?”

“The boy said he saw her occasionally going to work in the mornings.”

“Did he say anything about seeing her Saturday?”
“He did not.”

“What was the last time that either one of them said they saw this little girl Mary Phagan?”
“Thursday.”

“Did he claim or breathe a thing about seeing her after Thursday?”
“He did not.”

Attorney Hooper cross-examined the witness.

HERBERT SCHIFF CALLED.

Harllee Branch, a reporter of The Atlanta Journal, was called, but was not in court at the moment.

Herbert Schiff was called as the next witness. He was assistant superintendent at the pencil factory when the murder was committed.

“Are you the assistant superintendent at the National Pencil factory?”

“I have worked there in several capacities.”

“In what capacity were you working

“I was assisting Mr. Frank.”

“What were your duties?” […]

Schiff Refutes Testimony of Conley and Dalton

[most of first column illegible on second page]

FRANK’S SALARY

“Do you know what Frank’s salary was?”

“[words illegible] It was $150 a month.”

“What was your salary?”
“Eighty dollars a month.”

“You said Sig Montag was the general manager?”
“Yes.”

“Where did he stay?”
“He stayed at Montag Brothers.”

“Who banked the money and paid the bills?”

“That was all done from Montag’s?”

“Did you or Frank draw any checks or payment of bills?”
“We did not. Neither of us had the authority to draw checks.”
“What, then, in a general way were your duties?”
“We attended to the manufacturing end of the business.”
“What did this finance sheet show?”
“It showed whether the week terminated with a profit or a loss. It showed the quantity of pencils manufactured and the quantity packed and other similar details of the business.”

“What time did the week start?”

“It started on Friday morning, and ran until the following Thursday night.”

FINANCIAL SHEET.

“What else did you have to show on this financial sheet?”
“We had to show prices, shipping, and amounts.”

“You say that the week started Friday morning and went to Thursday night. Why was it that you waited until Saturday to make up the financial sheet?”

Because reports supposed to reach there Friday often did not come until Saturday and because we had to include the payroll, which was finished on Saturday.”

“How long has it been customary to make this financial sheet on Saturdays?”

“Ever since the factory started.”

“How did you help Frank on it?”
“I usually got up most of the data, the factory records, and reports of the foremen and foreladies, record of shipments, records from the slat factory and totals of payrolls.”

“Beginning June, 1912, and up to January 1, 1913, what Saturdays did you miss going to the factory?”

“None at all.”

“How about your vacation?”
“Oh, yes, I was off the last week in July and the first week in August.”

“Except for those two weeks, did you miss a single Saturday in that period?”

“No.”

FRANK’S OFFICE HOURS.

“What time would you come back on Saturday afternoons?”
“Well, I usually left at 12:30 and came back at 2 to 2:15.”

“How about Frank?”
“He usually left a little after 1 o’clock and returned about 3 o’clock.”

“Do you remember Frank ever getting back first?”
“No.”

“Would you work until he came?”
“Yes.”

“And after you got there, how did you do?”

“We worked together.”

“Were you interrupted frequently by salesmen?”

“Yes, people often came on business, and sometimes people from Montag’s would come.”

“Did you ever know of the door being locked on Saturday afternoons?”
“No.”

OTHERS IN OFFICE.

“Who else was there?”
“The office boy generally was in the outer office.”

“Did you ever have st[e]nographers come back on Saturday?”
“No.”
“Who else was there?”
“As a rule, one of the machinists stayed there, and Harry Denham would work on the fourth floor, and a negro named Pride would work there, and sometimes Mr. Wilson.”

“How about Holloway?”
“He usually stayed around the time clock until relieved by the night watchman, or about 4:30.”

“Did you ever have a negro night watchman?”
“Not until Newt Lee came.”

“Who was the watchman before him?”
“The Kendricks.”

“How long did it take to get up to the financial sheet?”
“It depended on the number of interruptions.”
“What time did you usually leave the factory on Saturdays?”
“About 5:30 o’clock.”

“By yourself.”

“No, with Frank.”

MRS. FRANK VISITED OFFICE.

“Did Mrs. Frank ever come to the factory on Saturday afternoons?”
“Quite often.”

“Did you ever see Jim Conley on Saturday afternoons?”
“No.”

“Did you and Frank ever have any women up there?”
“No.”

“Is there a bed, a cot, a lounge, or a sofa, or anything else like that, in the building?”
“No, my attention has been called to a filthy box in the basement which has no connection with our factory since this matter came up.”

Mr. Arnold caused the witness to repeat that he had missed no Saturdays except on his vacation.”

“Were you there the first Saturday in January?”
“Yes, I left the city about 3:10.”

“Were you there at the factory most of the day?”
“Yes.”

“Who else was there?”
“Ten or twelve of the fellows. We stayed there until 5 minutes to train time, and several of them and Mr. Frank went to the train with me.”

“Did you ever know this man Dalton?”
“Never saw him.”

KNOWS HOPKINS GIRL.

“Do you know Daisy Hopkins?”

“Yes.”

“Where did she work?”
“On the office floor with about ten other girls.”

“Do you remember when she left?”

“No.”

Mr. Arnold handed to the witness the factory pay roll and asked him to refresh his memory from it as to the time she left. The witness looked through the pay roll and remarked, “This books begins on May 1, 1912.”

“When does Daisy Hopkins name appear last?”
“On the week of June 6, 1912.”

“What day of the week was that?”
“She only worked two days, Friday and Saturday.”

“Do you know this woman personally?”
“I’d know her if I saw her.”
“Did you ever see her come back on any Saturday afternoon after she quit the factory, alone or with anybody else?”
“I did not.”
“How long did Frank remain in the pencil factory on the first Saturday in January?”
“’Till he went to the train with me in the evening.”

SNOWED THANKSGIVING?

“Do you recollect last Thanksgiving day?”
“I do.”

“What kind of a day was it?”
“It was cold and snowing.”

“Were you at the pencil factory that day?”
“I was.”
“Who else was there?”
“Mr. Frank was there, and the office boy and I had Jim Conley come back.”

“Tell the jury the conditions under which Conley came back.”

“The box room had to be cleaned up,” said the witness, facing the jury, and I told him to come back and do it. I put him and the office boy at work together.”
“Where were you and Frank at this time?”

“We were in the office.”

“When did Frank leave?”
“About 12, we went together.”

“When did Conley leave, to the best of your recollection?”
“About 10 o’clock in the morning.”

“Do you remember anything that Frank had to do that day?”
“Yes, he went to a B’nai B’rith fair.”

“He was president of that organization, wasn’t he?”
“Yes.”

“Where was the fair?”
“At the Orphans’ Home.”

“You helped to carry some bundles to the car for him, didn’t you?”
“Yes, sir.”

SCHIFF PAID OFF APIRL 25.

“What time did he get on the car, to the best of your memory?”
“About 12:10 p. m.”

“Who paid off on Friday, April 25?”

“I did.”
“Where did you pay from?”
“The window in the outer office.”

“Do you recall Helen Ferguson getting her pay?”
“I do.”

“Do you remember her or anybody else asking to get Mary Phagan’s pay envelope?”
“I do not.”

“Whom would she have had to ask, in order to get it?”
“Me. She would have had to bring a note.”
“What is the rule regarding relatives getting pay for anybody?”
“Well, if we know their faces we might give it to them.”

NONE ASKED FOR MARY’S PAY.

“Did you see anybody go to Mr. Frank and ask for Mary Phagan’s pay?”
“I did not.”
“Was there any reason for going to him?”
“No, sir.”

“How many people did you pay off Friday?”
“Well, we had 160 envelopes when I started, and I think there were about six or eight left.”

“Now, that Friday night, when did you and Frank leave?”
“We left together, about 6 or 6:30 o’clock.”

In answer to questions the witness said that he did not get up his usual data on that Friday because he had to fix up the pay roll that day. “This threw more work on Frank,” said the witness, “because he had to do on Saturday the work I usually did on Friday, before he could start on the financial sheet.”

WHY HE WASN’T THERE APRIL 26.

“Did you intend to come to the factory that Saturday morning?”
“I did.”

“Did you come?”
“I did not.”

“Why?”
“I overslept.”
“It was a holiday anyhow, wasn’t it?”
“Yes.”
“Did Frank or anybody else call you up at your home and ask for you?”
“Yes, they called me up, but the maid answered the phone.”

Attorney Arnold directed the witness attention to the diagram of the pencil factory introduced by the solicitor. Mr. Arnold asked Schiff if the diagram showed Frank’s office or the outer office to be larger. The witness replied that it showed the outer office larger.

“As a matter of fact, which of these two offices is the larger?”
“Frank’s office—it’s about twice as large.”

“Is the elevator as far from the office as the diagram shows?”

“The elevator is directly opposite the time clock. This diagram shows that it’s nearly as far back as the staircase.”

“Then that’s an inaccuracy?”
“It is.”

MODEL OF FACTORY.

The model of the factory was brought into court.

“Are you familiar with this door into the Clark Woodenware department?”
“Yes.”

“Did you notice this door after the tragedy?”
“Yes, I noticed it two or three days afterward.”
“Was it open or shut?”
“It was cracked.”

“Is there a hole there in the woodenware department?”
“Yes. It is a sort of a built-up hole in the floor, where a machine was operated formerly.”
“Is it open?”
“Yes.”
“It has no lid?”
“None at all.”
“Is the opening down through that whole [sic] big enough to put through the body of a girl the size of Mary Phagan?”
“Yes.”
“Do you recollect that hole ever being nailed up?”
“I do not.”

“If a body was pushed down through that hole, where would it stop?”
“I should say it would stop on the platform below.”

THE CHUTE.

“This first chute here, shows in the model, does it stay open?”
“There was no danger of anybody falling through it. It was protected by a square banister about waist high.”

The model then was removed from court. Attorney Arnold began to question the witness in detail concerning the finance sheet which Frank claims to have made out on Saturday afternoon, April 26.

“Look at this paper. Do you recognize it?”
“I do.”
“What does it show?”
“It shows the name, the grade, and the amount of pencils packed in our factory during the week ending April 24.”

“When did Frank first know that you hadn’t gotten up for him that data?”

“On Saturday morning, I suppose.”

“How long did it usually take you and Frank to finish the financial sheet?”
“About three or four hours.”

“Is that the sheet Frank made upon Saturday morning, April 26?”

“It is the sheet for that week.”

SHEET FOR APRIL 26 ACCURATE.

“Have you been into those figures to see if he carried into the sheet the data you left there for him?”

“I have.”
“Are the figures accurate?”
“They are.”
Attorney Arnold asked the witness to explain a number of the items at the top of the finance sheet. The witness explained that the first items represented fixed charges, such as rent, light and power, insurance, etc.

“Please tell us what that next item is.”

“It shows 2.756 and a half gross.”
“What is that?”
“That is the number of gross of pencils manufactured that week.”
“Are his figures correct according to the data compiled by you?”
“They are.”

“What does Mr. Frank have to do to get that item?”
“He had to go over about thirty sets of figures.”
“How many different kinds of pencils do you find classified on that finance sheet?”
The witness glanced down the sheet and replied that he found thirty-five different kinds.

“How long would it require to make out that finance sheet containing that many classifications?”

“I never timed it exactly.”

VERY TEDIOUS TASK.

“What is necessary to be done in order to arrive at the figures shown on the finance sheet?”

“Addition, multiplication and subtraction.”

Attorney Arnold then went into minute detail with the witness in an effort to show that making out the finance sheet was a very complicated and tedious task. He showed among other things that in addition to classifying each and every grade of pencils manufactured during the week, he must classify also each grade of rubber plugs used during the week, and each grade of tips used, and each grade of lead used, together with the amount of each.

Schiff said that he had never known of the financial sheet being completed in less than three and a half hours. Usually it took three hours or more, said he.

HANDWRITING NORMAL.

He identified the financial sheet made out on April 26 as being in Frank’s usual and normal handwriting, and declared that he had checked all of the calculations and found them accurate.

He compared it with the financial sheet of the week before, also in Frank’s hand, and said that he found no difference in the writing. No nervousness showed in the writing, said he.

Attorney Arnold produced the permanent record of the factory, showing all of the financial sheets, which are bound and kept in the safe of the factory. He commenced with the factory week ending May 30, 1912, and showed each sheet to the witness, who declared that they were all in Frank’s handwriting.

From the week ending May 30 through the week ending January 2, 1913, with the exception of July 25 and August 1, the witness declared that all the sheets were made by Frank in his presence on Saturday afternoons in the factory. From January 2 through April 23, he declared, all the sheets were in Frank’s handwriting, although he was not present when they were made.

The cash book was shown to the witness. In it were found records of petty receipts and disbursements around the factory. There was a balance of cash on hand, in that account, of $36.54 on the Saturday of the murder, said the witness.

“Where was this cash kept?”
“In the little cash box.”

“It was not Frank’s money was it?”
“No, it belonged to the company.”

TECHNICAL MATTERS.

The witness was asked a number of questions of a technical nature regarding the accounts in the cash book.

The requisition and house order book was produced before him, and numerous questions regarding it were asked and answered. He explained that from it preliminary calculations had to be made before the financial sheet could be drawn. He identified eleven orders in the book, in Frank’s handwriting, entered on Saturday, April 26. He testified that that there were no errors in the entering of the orders, for the goods had reached their destinations as far as he knew, no complaint having been received of their non-delivery. If they had not been filled properly, we would have heard from them long before now, was the comment of the witness.

After finishing with the questions concerning the orders received on April 26 and duly entered by Frank, according to the witness, Attorney Arnold asked the witness where Frank got these orders. Frank got them at Montag’s, said Schiff. To this reply Solicitor Dorsey objected, unless the witness could testify of his own personal knowledge. Attorney Arnold changed the question.

WENT TO MONTAG’S FOR MAIL.

“Was any of these orders in the office when you left there Friday afternoon?”
“No.”

“Where did Frank go usually to get his mail?”
“He went to Montag’s.”

“You found these orders there, in the office on Monday, duly entered?”
“I did.”

“You shipped the goods called for in the orders?”

“Yes.”
“You received no complaints from any of the firms to which you shipped the goods?”
“None whatever.”
“Was the work Frank did in entering these orders outside and independent of the work he did on the finance sheet?”
“It was.”
Attorney Arnold questioned the witness as to his movements on Sunday, April 27.

“Did you identify the body of Mary Phagan?”
“I did not.”

“Did you know Mary Phagan?”
“I knew her by name, but I won’t be positive that I knew her by sight.”

FRANK NOT SCRATCHED.

“Was there any scratch or bruise on Mr. Frank on Sunday?”
“There was not.”

“When anything went wrong at the factory, how did it affect Mr. Frank?”
“It affected him very much. He is a man of very nervous temperament. When anything went wrong he would get excited and run back and forth and show his agitation in various way.”

“Just what did Mr. Frank do to manifest his nervousness?”
“His hands would shake this way,” illustrating.

“Was it unusual for Mr. Frank to get nervous?”

“No.”

“Do you remember a child that had been run over by a street car, and do you remember how Mr. Frank acted?”
“Yes, he came in very much excited. I had to give him some ammonia and he was not much good the rest of the day.”

At this point Attorney Arnold asked the solicitor for the notes found beside the body of Mary Phagan.

WHAT HE KNOWS OF CONLEY.

“Do you know Jim Conley?”
“Yes.”

“How long have you known him?”
“About two years.”

“What sort of a negro is he?”
“There is very little to him.”

To this question and answer Attorney Hooper objected on the ground that it was a conclusion. Attorney Arnold changed the form of his question and proceeded as follows:

“What kind of work did Jim Conley do?”
“Among other things, he trucked goods around the factory and ran the elevator some.”

“Do you know Jim Conley’s general character for truth and veracity?”
“Yes.”

“What is it?”
“Bad.”
“Would you, knowing his character, believe him on oath?”
“I would not.”

“Would you believe him on oath or off of oath?”
“No.”

At this point Solicitor Dorsey turned over to Attorney Arnold the notes found by Mary Phagan’s body. Mr. Arnold exhibited the notes to the witness and asked him this question.

“Where in the factory can be found paper like this?”
“All over the plant.”

“Why all over the plant?”
“We do not give our expensive letterheads to the employes. When they call for paper to use as memoranda in their work, we furnish them these cheap writing tablets.”

TABLETS ALL OVER FACTORY.

“Are the remainder of the writing tablets swept into the trash?”
“Yes.”

“At what places in the plant can these writing tablets be found?”
“From the roof to the cellar.”

“Now look at this yellow paper.”

“That is a duplicate order sheet of an old series which was not in use at the time of the tragedy.”

“Where were they to be found?”
“Well, a foreman named Becker left a number of them on the fourth floor, and there were some in the outer office. They were accessible to anybody.”

Mr. Arnold asked him if he had overheard a telephone conversation between Frank and a Mr. Ersenbach on Friday, the day before the tragedy. The witness said that he remembered talking about a baseball game, but his recollection of the words of the conversation was hazy.

The witness admitted that a person sitting at Frank’s desk could see about half of the time clock on the left. No one sitting there could see the steps going down to the first floor, said he. If the door of the safe in the outer office is open, said he. “one could see only the wall in the inner office, and a person sitting at Frank’s desk could not see out at all. He said that a person of Monteen Stover’s height could not see over the safe door.

DIDN’T SEE MARY’S PURSE.

During work hours the safe door usually stands open, he said. He saw the safe Monday, he said, and went through it, and id not see a mesh bag there. The only pocketbook he ever saw in the safe, he said, was one containing 65 cents, which was found by an employe on the sidewalk two years ago. Schiff said that he saw Jim Conley in the factory Monday or Tuesday.

On Tuesday morning while Frank was in the factory he was with him constantly and went to the fourth floor with him and did not see him speak to Conley. Everybody was excited Monday and Tuesday and one of the foreladies went into hysterics, crying out that they shouldn’t take him (referring to Mr. Frank).

CONLEY FEARED CROWD.

He remembered seeing Jim Conley in the shipping room. “What are you doing here?” the witness said he asked. Conley replied, he said, that he was afraid to go out and would give a million dollars if he was a white man.

Schiff said he told the negro that he had nothing to be afraid of and to go on down the steps. Schiff said it was very dark on the first floor of the factory around the elevator. He had never known Frank to shut or lock the office doors. There are glasses in those doors, he said.

Attorney Arnold asked him a number of questions relative to the elevator shaft. He said that the door of the shaft could be pushed up and it would be a simple matter to throw any one down in it. The elevator makes considerable noise when it starts running, said he, and stops at the basement with a thud. He said that the humming of the motor is distinct.

The motor box has not been locked, that he knows of, since the complaint was made by the insurance people before the tragedy.

The witness said he often got after Jim Conley for falling to punch the time clock, but that he did not indulge him and docked him each time.

Schiff said that he often had seen blood spots in different parts of the factory. Employes often got their fingers cut, and it was a rule that they should come to the office to have their wounds bound up. He said that he saw the blood spots which Barrett found, and the hair. He said that he saw Jim Conley when Conley pointed out the place where he claimed to have found the body, and there was no blood there. The place was dry, he said. He said he did not recall the metal room floor having been scrubbed in four years.

Solicitor Dorsey took up the cross-examination of the witness.

DENIES CONVERSATION.

“Did you talk to Undertaker Gheesling, Sunday, April 27?”

“I did not. I was not there.”

“When did you talk to him?”
“Sunday afternoon about 4 o’clock.”

“Well, you told Gheesling something about Mary Phagan, didn’t you?”
“I did not.”

“Where did you get that information?”
“I said I didn’t tell him that.”
Attorney Arnold entered an objection to the whole subject. Judge Roan said, “Mr. Dorsey, he denies he ever said it. I rule it all out.”

“Well, you know about Mrs. White claiming to have seen a negro at the bottom of the stairs when she left the factory, Saturday, didn’t you?”
“I did.”
“And Sam Hewlitt a private detective, was in conference with you before you hired the Pinkertons, wasn’t he, and you didn’t tell him anything about that, did you?”
“He was there, but we hired him as night watchman.”

“When did you hire him?”
“On the Sunday afternoon after the murder.”

“When did you first tell the city detectives about this?”
Attorney Arnold objected. He said that Detective Scott already had sworn that he told the city detectives about it.

ROAN SUSTAINS OBJECTION.

“Your honor, I want to show that the factory people never told the police of this fact,” said the solicitor. Judge Roan sustained the objection, however.

“On Monday, how many times did Frank telephone to you to get Pinkertons?”
“Three or four times, I think.”

“Where was he?”
“At home.”
“Wasn’t the factory full of detectives when he telephoned—city detectives?”
“I don’t know. I don’t think so, though. I think the first time they came Monday was when we telephoned about finding the blood.”

“When was the first time Frank telephoned you about getting the Pinkertons?”
“About 12 o’clock, I think.”

“What did he tell you?”
“He told me to see Mr. Montag and tell him that he thought we ought to hire the Pinkertons to find the murderer, in justice to our employes.”

“When did he phone again?”
“About 12:30 o’clock, I guess.”

“What did he say that time?”
“Well, he asked me if I had seen Mr. Montag yet, and I told him that I hadn’t.”

FRANK ‘PHONED OFTEN.

“How long was it before he telephoned again?”
“It was just a little after 1, then.”

“You said Frank talked a great deal, and tried to explain his nervousness, on the morning the body was found, didn’t you?”
“I didn’t say ‘talked a great deal.”

“Didn’t you say he tried to explain it?”
“Yes, I said that.”
Solicitor Dorsey picked up a signed statement made previously by Schiff and asked, “Didn’t you state in this that Frank referred to his nervousness and tried to account for it?”
“I didn’t say who brought the subject up, though.”
“But what did Frank say on occasions when he referred to this fact?”

DOESN’T REMEMBER.

“I don’t remember exactly. I think one time, though, he spoke of how awful the girl looked at the undertaker’s, and told that they had taken him into a room where the body was and had flashed on a light suddenly.”

“What did Frank say the detectives told him when they called him over the phone on the morning the body was found?”
“I don’t remember.”

“Was your memory better on May 12 than now?”
“On May 12? I guess it was.”

“Didn’t Frank tell you that he asked the detectives if there was a fire at the factory?”
“Yes, he said he asked if there was anything wrong there.”
“What did Frank say about his breakfast?”
“He said it was one reason why he was nervous—he hadn’t had any.”

“You’ve been without a stenographer for quite a while, haven’t you?”
“Yes.”

“As a result of this, what was the condition of the work?”
“The work has accumulated to some extent.”

“Do you do any billing?”

“No.”
“Who does?”
“The stenographer. Mr. Frank has made out bills from the checking sheet.”

FRANK’S SATURDAY WORK.

“Frank doesn’t do any typewriting, does he?”

“No, sir.”

“What work was there for Frank to do on Saturday except with reference to this financial sheet.”

“Enter the orders and make requisitions.”

“You know that Miss Hall entered the orders, don’t you?”
“I do not.”

“When was the first time you saw those orders entered on this book?”
“Monday or Tuesday.”

“Didn’t you say before the coroner that you saw them on May 2?”

“I said that it was May 2 when I first entered something myself.”

“How long would it take to enter those orders on that book?”

“About an hour, or an hour and a quarter.”

“And to make the acknowledgments at the same time?”
“Yes.”

“Didn’t you say before the coroner that it would only take a half an hour?”

CROWD LAUGHS.

Attorney Rosser objected. Solicitor Dorsey declared: “He (the witness) knows what I want!” There was audible laughter in court. Attorney Arnold jumped to his feet. “Your honor, I am going to move to clear the court if this isn’t stopped. I don’t know who is instigating this, but these people are not participating in this trial, and they should be made to preserve order.”

Judge Roan commanded the sheriff to bring any person before him whom he caught laughing or creating any kind of disorder.

“Didn’t the coroner ask you how long it took to enter these orders, and didn’t you say ‘not over a half an hour’? Tell this jury why you now say an hour and a half.”

“I said it took a half an hour simply to enter the orders.”

“You know that Miss Hall made the acknowledgments, don’t you?”
“No, I do not.”

“You know that Miss Hall did it if she was there, don’t you?”
“I do not.”

“If Frank did make the acknowledgments, how long would it take him to do so?”
“Not over five or ten minutes.”

“Well, why should it take him an hour and a half to enter eleven orders on this book?”
“You mean to enter them, transcribe them and copy them?”
“Yes, to transcribe them and copy them.”

DORSEY GETS IN EVIDENCE.

Mr. Rosser objected again to the questions. Solicitor Dorsey put a new question.

“Now tell the jury what you stated it took Frank an hour and a half to do.”

Mr. Arnold objected to this question.

“All right,” said the solicitor. “Mr. Witness, come down here in front of the jury and take this book and put your finger on the beginning of this hour and a half of work, and explain just what Frank did during that period.”
The witness went through the book, pointing out the work which he said Frank did on that Saturday.

“Was any of that work done on Friday?”
“No.”
“How do you know?”
“Because none of it was there when I left Friday night.”

The solicitor, pointing to the orders, demanded “How long with this data before him would it take Frank to enter those eleven orders?”
“Half an hour.”

“You think it would take an expert penman like Frank 30 minutes to write down eleven short orders?”
“I didn’t say he was an expert.”

“Well, he makes out all the financial statements, doesn’t he? And none has been made out since he’s been in jail?”
“Yes, he makes out the statements. None have been made out since he’s been in jail.”

SHAKES FINGER IN FACE.

Attorney Arnold suggested that the witness should take the chair; that the solicitor and the witness were “jowering” at each other and had their fingers in each other’s faces and they might fight. Solicitor Dorsey ignored the interruption, the witness remaining in front of the jury box.

“You tell me that you never watched Frank enter orders.”

“I said I’d never timed him.”

“Then, it is a mere guess as to how long it would take him?”
“Yes.”

“Then it may have taken thirty minutes, or it may not have taken him but fifteen minutes?”
“Yes.”
“What else was there to do beside enter these orders?”
“Transcribe them and acknowledge them.”

“Didn’t Miss Hall do that?”
“She only acknowledged them.”

COUNSEL ARGUES.

There was some argument between solicitor and Mr. Arnold as to the next question he asked the witness. The solicitor stated that he desired to show by the witness that Miss Hall did this work Saturday morning, April 26; that she had put her initials on it to show that she had done it, and that it went on out to Mr. Schiff. The solicitor declared that he ought not to have been made to indicate to the witness just what he purposed showing.

“What is the regular way about acknowledging these orders?”
“There is no regular way. Sometimes the orders are acknowledged before they are filled.”

“When in the usual orderly way, did Frank first enter the orders on this book?”
“There was no certain first step in the process.”

“Then you had no system at all?”
“Yes, but in this transaction one thing doesn’t hinge on another.”

“What is the usual custom with reference to these orders?”
“There was no usual custom.”

ADJOURNS TILL MONDAY.

“If Hattie Hall had anything to do with writing these things it was done Saturday morning, was it not?”

“Yes.”

“How do you know.”

“I think so.”

“If entering the orders is the first step, and acknowledging them is the second step, what is the next?”

“To transcribe them.”

“What else?”
“We usually put down the value.”

“Show the jury where and how you put the value down on these books.”
After the witness had done that, court was adjourned at 12:25 until Monday morning at 9 o’clock.

* * *

Atlanta Journal, August 9th 1913, “Schiff Refutes Jim Conley and Dalton,” Leo Frank case newspaper article series (Original PDF)

Another in our series of new transcriptions of contemporary articles on the Leo Frank case.

Atlanta Georgian
August 9^th, 1913

Intricacy of Figures Produced by Schiff Under Fire

WOMEN NEVER CAME INTO FACTORY OFFICE, WITNESS TESTIFIES

The second week of the Frank trial ended at 12:30 Saturday with a bitter battle in progress over the testimony of Herbert G. Schiff, assistant superintendent of the National Pencil Factory.

Schiff was called soon after court opened in the forenoon and was on the stand when the adjournment was taken until Monday.

Schiff, besides denying that Frank ever had women in his office, describes in elaborate detail the duties of superintendent, particularly his work on the afternoon the little Phagan girl came to her death. It was the purpose of the defense to show that it would have been most improbable that Frank, after committing a murder, calmly would have sat down with the burden of guilt resting on his conscience and proceeded with his usual preciseness in the intricate and involved computations required in making out the financial sheet.

Dorsey was given the witness toward the close of the session and started at once to attack Schiff’s estimates of time that it would have required for the various details of the work. Schiff made a good witness and the solicitor was able to make little headway in his cross-questioning.

Says Frank Explained Nervousness.

Schiff admitted to Dorsey, however, that Frank was really anxious to get the Pinkertons on the job and that Frank called from his home three times a intervals of little more than half an hour, instructing Schiff to take the matter up with Sig Montag, one of the officers of the pencil factory company. He said Frank declared it to be the factory’s duty to its employees.

Schiff also admitted that Frank several times explained his nervousness of Sunday, the day when the body was found, by the abrupt manner in which he had been taken from his house without any breakfast or coffee and by the visit to the morgue where the light suddenly was turned upon the body of the girl victim as she lay before his eyes.

A search Saturday for C. B. Dalton, the man who told of visiting the factory with Miss Daisy Hopkins, developed that he had disappeared from the courthouse. He was called for by the defense when court opened, but did not answer. One of the girls, mentioned in his story declares in a letter to The Georgian, that Dalton lied in his statement.

The cross-examination of Schiff will be resumed when court opens Monday morning.

Financial Sheets Put In Evidence.

Reuben Arnold had in court the financial sheet over which there has been much discussion since the murder mystery developed; Schiff identified the series of figures and notations as in Frank’s handwriting. Arnold had also every financial sheet for the year previous to the crime, and Schiff identified them all as Frank’s work. He said that the least complicated of the financial sheets never took less than 2 1-2 or three hours to compile.

The financial sheet identified as the one Frank prepared the afternoon of April 26, the day of the murder, was displayed as an evidence that the writing of Frank was not tremulous, irregular or in any way different from his handwriting in the 51 other financial sheets on file.

Schiff went into the highly complex methods in which the financial sheet is made up, in order to show for the defense the clarity of mind that was required in order to complete the sheet without mistake or confusion.

He narrated that costs and profits were estimated each week on thousands of pencils of different classifications and grades, on hundreds of gross of rubber plugs, on the various classes of leads, boxes, “skeletons” on which the pencils were arranged, and other items of material that entered into the manufacture of the pencils. Schiff also read a number of orders to illustrate the amount of other work that ordinarily is taken care of on Saturdays.

An attack was made upon the testimony of young George Epps when court opened Saturday morning. Epps was called to the stand and made to tell of the visit of a Georgian reporter at his home Sunday evening, April 27. He was asked why he had not told at that time his story of riding to town with Mary Phagan on the day she was killed. Epps declared that he did not talk to the reporter.

The reporter, John Minar, was called immediately after and testified that he talked at length with both the Epps boy and his sister in an effort to determine who last had seen the murdered girl and when. Teh reporter declared that the sister replied that she had seen Mary Phagan Thursday before, but that young Epps, although present, said nothing, except that he had seen the girl occasionally. Arnold questioned the boy.

Q. Do you recollect the Sunday the body was found?—A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember a gentleman, a Mr. Minar, coming to your house and talking to you and your sister?—A. Yes.

Q. Didn’t he ask you when was the last time either of you had seen Mary […]

FINANCIAL SHEETS ARE SHOWN TO PROVE FRANK’S COMPOSURE

Herbert Schiff, Office Assistant, Tells of Intricacies of Work on Tragic Day

NEWSBOY’S EVIDENCE IS ATTACKED BY DEFENSE; FLAWS IN TIME SOUGHT

[…] Phagan?—A. Yes, he asked my sister; he didn’t ask me.

Q. Weren’t you there?—A. No, I wasn’t there. I was in the house.

Q. Weren’t you standing by your sister and she said the last time Mary Phagan was seen by her was Thursday before the murder and you stood there and said nothing?—A. No, I didn’t hear that. I was in the house, but I didn’t hear all he said to her.

“Come down,” said Arnold.

Lad Didn’t Flee Court.

Mr. Dorsey interrupted.

Q. George, has there been any trouble to get you to come to court?—A. No, sir; I was playing ball when they sent for me yesterday and didn’t get the message.

Mr. Arnold objected to the question and reply and Mr. Dorsey said:

“Your honor, Mr. Arnold made the impression on this court yesterday that this boy was fleeing from the court. The deputy said he couldn’t find him. We just want to show that he was always willing to come.”

Judge Roan overruled the objection.

Q. George, you were always willing to come, weren’t you?—A. Yes, sir. I got tired hanging around the court, and asked you if I could go. You told me you would send for me when you needed me. I came when I got your message.

Reporter Placed on Stand.

John Minar, a newspaper reporter, was the next witness.

Q. Were you a reporter for The Georgian in April?—A. I was.

Q. After this girl’s body was found did you go out to this boy Epps’ home?—A. I did.

Q. What day and time?—A. Sunday evening, April 27, at 8 o’clock.

Q. Did you ask this boy and his sister when they last saw Mary Phagan?—A. Yes.

Q. Were they together?—A. Yes.

Q. Is there any doubt they both heard you?—A. No.

Q. What did they say in reply to your question?—A. The girl said she had seen her Thursday.

Q. Did the boy say anything?—A. He said he rode to the city with her in the mornings occasionally.

Q. Did he say anything about riding with her that Saturday?—A. No.

Hooper took the witness on cross-examination, but brought out nothing.

Herbert Schiff, who worked with Frank as office man and salesman, was the next on the stand.

Mr. Arnold questioned Schiff.

Q. You are assistant superintendent of the factory, I believe?—A. I have worked in several capacities.

Schiff Tells of Duties.

Q. What were your duties at the time of the murder?—A. I was assistant to Mr. Frank.

Q. What were your exact duties?—A. The duties were divided equally between Frank and myself.

Q. Did you have anything to do with the financial statement?—A. Yes. I helped collect the data.

Q. Did you or Mr. Frank have anything to do with the cash?—A. Only the petty cash.

Q. Who did the real handling of the finances?—A. The general manager, Mr. Sig Montag.

Q. Who drew the checks?—A. Mr. Montag.

Q. Did either you or Mr. Frank ever draw any checks?—A. No, we didn’t have any authority to.

Q. What time did you and Mr. Frank draw your money?—A. We drew our checks the last of the month. We never consulted each other about the exact time.

Q. Do you know how much Mr. Frank made?—A. One hundred and fifty dollars a month.

Q. How much did you get?—A. Eighty dollars.

Q. You said the general manage was Mr. Montag. Did he stay at the factory?—A. No.

Q. Was any of the financing for the factory done at the factory or at Montag’s?—A. No.

Q. All you did was to look after manufacturing?—A. Yes.

Q. That financial sheet, what was it for?—A. To show whether the week was a profit or a loss.

Q. Why did you make it up on Saturday?—A. Because our report never came in until Friday and the pay roll had to be figured in it.

Q. How long have you been making those sheets?—A. Since Frank went to the factory.

Q. Beginning with June, 1912, and running to January, how much time did you miss?—A. None.

Q. When did you take your vacation?—A. That’s right, I took a vacation from the last week in July to the first week in August.

Q. What time do you usually go to dinner?—A. At about 12:30 and get back at about 2.

Q. What time did Frank go?—A. A little after 1 and got back before 3.

Q. Did you do any work on the financial sheet before Frank got back?—A. Yes. I got up my slat racket.

Q. Did Darley do any work on it?—A. Yes, he helped.

Q. Did you all work together?—A. Yes.

Q. Did the stenographer work Saturday afternoon?—A. Very seldom.

Q. You were frequently interrupted by salesmen?—A. Yes.

Q. You would stay there and leave together?—A. Very often.

Q. Did you ever have a negro night watchman there before Newt Lee?—A. No.

Denies Seeing Women.

Q. When did Newt Lee come there?—A. About the first of April.

Q. What was the night watchman before him?—A. A white man named Kendrick.

Q. Who was the watchman before him?—A. His father.

Q. Did you ever seen any women there Saturday afternoons?—A. Never.

Q. Did Mrs. Frank ever come down there on Saturday afternoons?—A. She would come down some time and go home with Mr. Frank.

Q. Is there a bed, cot or anything of the sort in the factory?—A. No, sir; they did call my attention to a dirty box in the basement that was used by the Clark Woodenware Company.

Q. Were you at the factory every Saturday from Jun 1, 1912, to January 1, 1913?—A. Yes.

Q. I believe you said you went on the the road the first Saturday in January?—A. Yes.

Q. What time did you leave?—A. About 5:10 in the afternoon.

Q. Did you go by the factory that day?—A. Yes, I went by and talked with the fellows until about half an hour before train time. Mr. Frank and several went to the train with me.

Q. Have you ever seen this man Dalton?—A. Yes, I saw him for the first time upstairs.

Q. Did you see him around the factory?—A. I did not.

Q. Do you remember Daisy Hopkins?—A. Yes, I would know her if I should see her.

Q. When was she there?—A. The witness referred to his books and replied: “This shows her first as being there on May 21 and last on June 6, 1912.”

Remembers Thanksgiving Day.

Q. Did you ever see her around there on Saturday afternoons?—A. I never did.

Q. Do you remember Thanksgiving, 1912?—A. I do.

Q. What sort of a day was it?—A. Cold and rainy. It had snowed.

Q. Were you at the factory that day?—A. I was.

Q. Who else was there?—A. Mr. Frank and myself, an office boy and Jim Conley came there under instructions. I told Jim Conley to come and stack up some boxes on the fourth floor.

Q. Do you remember what time he left?—A. Yes, about 10 o’clock.

Q. What time did you and Mr. Frank leave?—A. Shortly after 12 o’clock.

Q. Where did you go?—A. Home. Mr. Frank’s Washington street car came before my Whitehall street car, and he got on it.

Q. Do you know of anything he had to do that night?—A. Yes. He was president of B’nai Brith and it was giving an affair that night. He had some packages in his hands, some crackers and things.

Q. What is the B’nai Brith?—A. It is a charitable organization.

A. What were they going to give that night?—A. An affair at the Orphan’s Home.

Q. You went to the car with him?—A. Yes.

Q. At what time?—A. About 12:30.

Q. Who paid off on April 25?—A. I did.

Q. Do you recall a girl, Helen Ferguson, asking for Mary Phagan’s pay?—A. No.

Q. Did she ask for her own pay?—A. Yes.

Q. What is the rule as to one employee collecting another employee’s pay?—A. They have to bring a note.

Q. Did anyone go to Mr. Frank for pay on Friday?—A. No.

Q. Was there any necessity for anyone going to Frank for their money?—A. No.

Q. Did you or did you not see anyone go to Mr. Frank?

Dorsey objected. “Your honor, I object to Mr. Arnold leading this witness,” he said. “He is willing enough.”

“I move that Mr. Dorsey’s statement be ruled from the record,” said Mr. Arnold.

Dorsey’s objection was sustained.

Q. Did you put posters in the factory when there was a holiday?—A. Yes, twelve of them, notifying the employees they could get their pay the day before.

Q. What time did Frank go home Friday?—A. Six o’clock.

Q. Did you get up any of the financial sheet Friday, as usual?—A. No. It was an unusual week. We had to work very hard to get up the pay roll Friday, and I could not touch it.

Q. Did that put other and additional work on Frank?—A. Yes.

Q. Did you go to the factory Saturday?—A. No.

Q. Why?—A. I overslept myself.

Q. Did anyone call you up?—A. Yes; Mr. Frank called up twice to know where the data for the financial sheet was.

Q. Did you answer the phone?—A. No; the maid did. I only know what she told me.

Q. Then Mr. Frank had to take your data and make up the financial sheet?—A. Yes.

Q. Did that require more than the ordinary amount of work on his part?—A. Yes.

Questions Schiff About Chute.

Mr. Arnold asked Solicitor Dorsey’s permission to use the State’s diagram of the National Pencil Factory prepared by Bert Green.

“Help yourself,” said Dorsey. The diagram, however, did not suit Mr. Arnold, so he had his own model brought in.

Q. Are you familiar with this door that leads into the Clark woodenware department?—A. It was two or three days before I noticed it. It was cracked open.

Q. Is there a hole in the rear of the building leading into the basement?—A. Yes; there is a hold boxed up, but open. It was used to carry waste shavings into the basement.

Q. Was it large enough to put the body of a girl the size of Mary Phagan through?—A. Yes.

Q. Was there a trapdoor back there?—A. Yes.

Q. Was it nailed?—A. I don’t think so.

Q. The door to the department was usually locked?—A. It was nailed up.

Q. When did Mr. Frank first discover that you had not made up your part of the sheet?—A. Saturday when he called me up, I guess.

Q. How long did it usually take you and Mr. Frank to make up that financial sheet?—A. About three hours.

Q. This sheet (handing the witness the sheet Frank made up Saturday afternoon of the murder) was not made up Friday, was it?—A. No, sir.

Q. When did you first see it?—A. The next week, when I got it from the general manager’s office.

Says Sheet Is Correct.

Q. Have you looked over it and seen that it was correct?—A. Yes.

Schiff enumerated the various items on the sheet showing the amount of work required to make it up. Frank had to add, divide and multiply various items, the witness said, to arrive at the cost of production during that week.

Q. How many pencils do you produce a week?—A. About 3,500 gross.

Q. How many are in a gross?—A. One hundred and forty-four.

Q. Have you any other places?—A. Slat mill, in Oakland City, and a lead plant on Bell street.

Q. Did he have to do any bookkeeping for these places?—A. Yes.

Q. I will get you to state what that second sheet is?—A. Another financial sheet.

Q. The financial sheet is reduced to one page?—A. Yes.

Q. Is this Frank’s handwriting on the sheet of the week of April 26?—A. Yes.

Q. You are familiar with the handwriting?—A. I am.

Q. Is it his usual handwriting?—A. It is.

Q. Was that sheet of the week before made out by Frank?—A. Yes.

Q. How do the handwritings compare?—A. They are the same.

Q. Neither you nor Frank had done any work on that sheet of the 26th—on Friday—had you?—A. We had not.

Q. How long would it have taken him or any other man to have made it out?—A. About three hours.

Dorsey Again Objects.

Q. How does his handwriting here of April 26 compare with his writing of the week before?—A. Almost identical.

Q. Does this one of April 26 show any nervousness?—A. None at all.

Dorsey interrupted: “The jury should decide that, your honor,” he said.

His objection was sustained.

Q. Are these the financial sheets for the whole year?—A. Yes.

Q. What is the shortest time you ever saw one of these compiled?—A. It couldn’t be done in less than two and one-half hours.

Q. Look at these—June 6, 13, 20, 27. Are they in Frank’s handwriting?—A. Yes.

Q. These of July 4, 11, 18, 25?—A. Yes.

Q. August 1, 8, 15, 22, 29, September 5, 12, are they Frank’s handwriting?—A. Yes.

Q. These of September 19, 26, October 3, 10, 17, 24, 31, November 7, 14, 21, 28, December 5, 12, 19, 25 and January 2?—A. Yes.

Q. You left the following Saturday to go on the road, didn’t you?—A. Yes.

Q. From May, 1912, to January 2, 1913, did Frank miss making the report on Saturdays?—A. No.

Q. Are these in Frank’s handwriting, January 9, 16, 23, 30, February 6, 13, 20, 27, March 6, 13, 20 and 27?—A. Yes.

Q. How about these of April 3 and 10?—A. Yes.

Q. You have in your hand the last two weeks?—A. Yes.

Q. This is the one of April 17?—A. Yes.

Q. And this one of April 26, made out on the day the girl was murdered?—A. Yes.

Q. He has not missed a day?—A. No.

Cash Book Produced.

Attorney Arnold introduced the petty cash book to show the small sums drawn out each week.

Q. How much did you pay out that week?—A. $39.61.

Q. How much did that leave?—A. $30.64.

Q. Not Frank’s money?—A. It certainly was not.

The witness was next shown the requisition and the house order books, which he identified as having been used by Frank in compiling the financial sheet. He showed where Frank had made interest on the order book on April 26.

Q. Are these orders correct?—A. Yes.

Q. Look at these letters and see?—A. There is a better proof than that. If they were not correct, we would have heard from them.

Q. Did Mr. Dorsey call for these books?—A. Yes.

Q. Did you hold back or conceal anything?—A. No; we gave them everything they asked for.

Q. After Frank entered the orders on this book, what did he do with them?—A. He put them on these orders here.

Q. Take each one of those eleven orders and see if they were checked in his handwriting.—A. They were.

Frank of Nervous Temperament.

The witness went carefully over each order.

Q. I have asked you about a mass of business relative to some orders. They came on Saturday, didn’t they?—A. They did.

Dorsey: “I object. He doesn’t know to his personal knowledge.”

Schiff: “They were not there Friday night, and they were there Monday.”

The objection was overruled.

Q. Was not this work entirely separate from the financial sheet?—A. It was.

Q. Did you know little Mary Phagan?—A. Her name was familiar on the pay roll, but I did not know who she was until after her death.

Q. When did you see Frank after Sunday?—A. I saw him Sunday at Bloomfield’s.

Q. Was Mr. Frank of a nervous temperament?—A. He was.

Q. Did anything unusual upset him?—A. Yes. He would go all to pieces and run up and down the office.

Q. When anyone would get cut or hurt, you or Mr. Darley would have to look after him, would you not?—A. We would.

Hooper objected to Arnold leading the witness. Arnold admitted that he was leading the witness.

Q. Do you know Jim Conley?—A. Yes.

Q. What sort of a negro is he?—A. There isn’t much to him.

Hooper interupted: “I object to the form of both of these questions,” he said. “I move that they be stricken from the records.”

Arnold again admitted that he was leading the witness.

Q. What work did he do?—A. Truck and ran the elevator.

Q. Do you know his character and was it good or bad?—A. Very bad.

Q. Would you believe him under oath?—A. I would not.

As to Monteen Stover.

Arnold showed the witness the murder notes.

Q. Where do you find this paper in the factory?—A. Anywhere from the roof to the basement.

Q. Are they swept into the basement?—A. Yes.

Q. Why are they thrown around?—A. We use them for note paper in the different departments because this paper is much cheaper than any other we have.

Q. Do you recall hearing a conversation between Mr. Frank and Mr. Ursenbach Friday about going to the ball game Saturday?—A. Yes, but not exactly what was said. I heard Mr. Frank say something about “I will go if I can, Charley.”

Q. Can you sit in Mr. Frank’s office at his desk and see the clocks?—A. Only half of one of them.

Q. If that safe door is open, could you see out?—A. No.

Q. Could Monteen Stover have seen over it?—A. It would have been impossible.

Q. How much is that safe kept open?—A. All the time when anyone is working in the office.

Q. Did you return to the factory Monday?—A. Yes.

Q. Who opened the safe?—A. I don’t know.

Q. Did you look into the safe that day?—A. Yes.

Q. Did you see anything of a silver mesh bag in that safe?—A. No.

Q. Did you ever see a purse of any kind in the safe?—A. Yes.

Q. When was it?—A. It was a little leather purse Joe Stelka found in the front of the factory a year ago. It was kept in the safe so that if anybody ever called for it it would be there.

Says Conley Was Scared.

Q. How much money did it have in it?—A. Sixt-five cents.

Q. Did you see Jim Conley at the factory Monday?—A. Yes.

Q. Tuesday?—A. Yes.

Q. Did you see Mr. Frank when he came back Monday?—A. Yes.

Q. Tuesday?—A. Yes.

Q. Do you recollect him going up to the fourth floor? Were you with him constantly that morning?—A. Yes.

Q. Did he speak to Jim Conley that morning?—A. No.

Q. Did you see Jim Conley speak to him?—A. No.

Q. What did Conley say to you that morning?—A. I saw him near the shipping room. I asked him what he was doing there. He said he was scared to go out—that he would give a million dollars to be a white man. I answered that that would not do any good as they had taken Mr. Frank. I told him to go on down.

Q. Everybody was excited down there, were they not?—A. Yes, the girls were crying. We had to dismiss all the employees for the day.

Q. Were you aware of the fact that this negro Jim Conley sometimes failed to punch the clock?—A. I had gotten after him several times.

Q. You never excused him?—A. No, I docked him.

Q. Did you ever see blood spots on the floor?—A. Yes.

Q. How did blood spots get on the floor?—A. Well, when anyone cut their finger, or anything of that kind, they would come to the office on the second floor to get it fixed.

Q. Would they pass near the ladies’ toilet on the second floor on the way to the office?—A. They would in coming from the rear of the second floor.

Q. Have you seen that hair since?—A. No.

Q. Was there any blood under that lathe?—A. No.

Q. Was there any water where this negro said he found the body?—A. No.

Q. Has that place been washed?—A. No.

Q. Dorsey took the witness on cross-examination.

Q. Did you talk to Gheesling at the undertaker’s Sunday?—A. No.

Q. Do you recall talking to Sam Hewlett, a detective?—A. Only when we employed him as night watchman.

Q. When did you tell the detectives about Mrs. White seeing a negro?

Arnold interrupted, “How can that have anything to do with this case?” he asked.

His objection was sustained.

Employment of Pinkertons.

Q. How many times did Frank phone you Monday?—A. Two or three.

Q. Where was he then?—A. At home.

Q. The factory was full of detectives?—A. Yes.

Q. What time did he phone you about the Pinkertons?—A. About noon.

Q. What did he say?—A. He asked me to take up with Mr. Montag the employment of a private detective and suggested the Pinkertons. He said he thought it was only fair to the employees.

Q. What time did he call you again?—A. About 1.

Q. What did he want?—A. To know if I had located Mr. Montag.

Q. What did you tell him?—A. I told him I had not been able to get him yet.

Q. In your conversation with Mr. Frank did he say anything about his nervousness?—A. Yes, he spoke of it.

Q. What did he say?—A. I don’t remember. I think he mentioned how terrible the girl looked. Again about them flashing a light on the body in the dark room.

Complained of Being Upset.

Q. He complained about being terribly upset about being rushed from home, didn’t he?—A. He said something about that.

Q. What did he tell you the police told him over the telephone?—A. He said they told him a catastrophe or tragedy—I don’t remember the term—had happened.

Q. He told you he asked them if there had been a fire?—A. Yes.

Q. What did he say about his breakfast?—A. He said one reason he was nervous was that he had not had any breakfast and wanted a cup of coffee.

Q. How long would it take a man to enter those eleven orders on a book?—A. An hour and a half.

Q. You have gone up some since you swore before the Coroner?—A. I did not swear before the Coroner. I said I thought.

Q. Didn’t you swear that it would take about 30 minutes?

Arnold objected. “He asked it like he means all that work,” he said.

Dorsey: “He knows what I am asking.” Laughter followed Dorsey’s remarks and the deputies were forced to rap repeatedly for order.

Arnold: “I am going to move that this courtroom be cleared, if there is any more of this disturbance. If we have got to take all of this crowd in, we might as well try the case out in the open.”

Judge Threatens Disturbers.

Judge Roan: “Mr. Sheriff, find out who is creating this disturbance and bring them to me. I will see if I can’t stop it.”

Dorsey continued his questioning.

Q. You know that Miss Hall made the acknowledgment, don’t you?—A. Sometimes.

Q. That would make some little difference wouldn’t it?—A. Yes, five or ten minutes.

Q. Will you explain to this jury, if you can, how it took 30 minutes to enter the orders and only five minutes to write the acknowledgment?—A. I said it would take an hour and a half to do all the work on that paper.

Q. It took that long to fill out an order, enter the number, etc.

Arnold interrupted: “He has asked the witness that question and got his answer,” he said.

The objection was overruled.

Q. I want you to detail the work that it work that it took an hour and a half to do. (Schiff took the order book, the transcriptions to the order blanks, the check, and the requisition from the storeroom.) It took 30 minutes to put this much on the book?—A. I don’t think so.

Quizzed on Office Details.

Q. Look at this acknowledgment. What are these initials? ‘H. H.’?—A. Hattie Hall.

Q. Then she did this?—A. Yes.

Dorsey took an order bearing the initials “H. H.” and bearing date of April 26.

Q. Did Miss Hall acknowledge this on April 26?—No, I wouldn’t think so. It was probably acknowledged Monday or it might have been the day before April 26.

Q. Well, was it the custom to write these before or after they were entered in the book?—A. Either way.

Q. Then you had no regular system?—A. Yes, but one does not hinge on the other. It did not make any big difference how this was done. It had to be done in the regular course of business.

At this point court adjourned until 9 o’clock Monday morning.

* * *

Atlanta Georgian, August 9th 1913, “State Attacks Frank Report,” Leo Frank case newspaper article series (Original PDF)

Another in our series of new transcriptions of contemporary articles on the Leo Frank case.

The Atlanta Georgian

Tuesday, July 15, 1913

RECALLS HE WAS TOLD STORY OF CONLEY

Watchman Remembers of Visit of Witness to Factory on Day of Crime.

Further corroboration of several of the important details in the remarkable affidavit of W.H. Mincey, insurance agent and teacher, who swore he heard Jim Conley confess killing a girl, came Tuesday in a statement by E.F. Holloway, day watchman at the National Pencil Factory.

Holloway substantiated in every particular the story of Mincey’s visit to the factory the Tuesday following the crime and recalled the general trend of the conversation, which was practically as Mincey related it in his signed statement published exclusively in The Georgian Monday. The defense has obtained an affidavit from Holloway as to the circumstances of the day.

“I remember Mincey coming here Tuesday,” said Holloway. “He was a quiet, retiring fellow, and I guess we scared him out. There were a lot of people in the factory, and the excitement after the murder was at its height. Several detectives were there and there were a score of people bothering the detectives and the factory authorities with their theories on the killing.

Wanted Negroes Arrested.

“This man Mincey came up to me and said he wanted to see Mr. Frank. I told him Mr. Frank was not there, but that I could take care of him. He asked me how many negroes worked in the factory, as I recall it, and I told him seven or eight.

“‘You’d better have everyone of them arrested,’ he replied. ‘I know the one that did it.’

“‘But there weren’t any negroes working in the factory Saturday except the night watchman,’ I told him, and I said that I didn’t see any negroes at all when I left at 11:45 on account of the holiday. I got a little sore at him because he kept pestering me about the negroes, and I guess he got mad because I wouldn’t pay any attention to him.

“Finally, Herbert Schiff or somebody else turned to the crowd and told them they all would have to leave the building, as it wasn’t possible to make any progress in the investigation with them scattered all over every floor and in the basement. This man Mincey went out with them, and that was the last I thought about his story until the day I found Jim Conley washing his shirt in the factory, something he never did before, so far as I know.

Told of Seeing Conley.

“After this Conley was arrested and I was pretty positive that he killed the girl, although I didn’t have any means of knowing that he even was in the factory until he confessed it of his own accord after he denied it half a dozen times. Then I told some of the people connected with the factory about Mincey, and when I saw him next he told all about the reasons that he felt positive about Conley.

“He said that he had met Conley the afternoon that Mary Phagan was murdered and that Conley had boasted that he had killed a girl. Mincey said he met him somewhere over near where Conley lived. I don’t know whether it was at Electric and Carter streets or not. He said he didn’t think much of it at the time, as he had supposed that Conley in his drunken stupor was merely bragging about his part in some negro row. He told me that Conley had threatened him, saying:

“‘I killed a girl already to-day; I don’t want to kill nobody else.’

“After this I guess they got his affidavit.”

* * *

The Atlanta Georgian, July 15th 1913, “Holloway Corroborates Mincey’s Affidavit,” Leo Frank case newspaper article series (Original PDF)